Michael Holding - Pandya is not next Kapil Dev

[SK_IH]

9 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

NO, for us, his batting is more important because he is a 5th bowler. Stokes is 4th bowler for England.

in these conditions he should be good enough to be the 4th bowler or force the captain to use him, if batting is the main concern of this team the we need to draft in a  batsman, we are absolutely wasting a spot with this guy

the role you keep harping about would be any of use on a flat pitch, on these wickets the capatin will always be reluctant to bowl him and loose any grip on the game

[shortbread]

Jadeja would be a better replacement for Pandya. The english batsmen would deal with the likes of Pandya with ease in home conditions. Neither will he be able to contain nor take wickets. There's nothing Pandya can achieve where 3 regular pacers couldnt.

 

I dont rate Pandya or Jadeja highly as a batsman, both are like buying lottery tickets.

 

What Jadeja can do is hold one end without leaking runs. WIll bowl a 5 over spell in a Jiffy without the opposition noticing. Plus he's exceptional on the field, India's best fielder. I think the new faces in the English line up will find facing Jadeja trick as compared to Pandya's medium pace.

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

in these conditions he should be good enough to be the 4th bowler or force the captain to use him, if batting is the main concern of this team the we need to draft in a  batsman, we are absolutely wasting a spot with this guy

the role you keep harping about would be any of use on a flat pitch, on these wickets the capatin will always be reluctant to bowl him and loose any grip on the game

will that batsman do better than Pandya. we should actually groom him as someone who can bat at 6.  Pandya did well with the ball too in his first spell, 5 over 11 runs when Root and JB were batting and in his 2nd spell, he had a lot of edges went for boundary.

Edited August 6, 2018 by rkt.india

[rkt.india]

9 minutes ago, shortbread said:

Jadeja would be a better replacement for Pandya. The english batsmen would deal with the likes of Pandya with ease in home conditions. Neither will he be able to contain nor take wickets. There's nothing Pandya can achieve where 3 regular pacers couldnt.

 

I dont rate Pandya or Jadeja highly as a batsman, both are like buying lottery tickets.

 

What Jadeja can do is hold one end without leaking runs. WIll bowl a 5 over spell in a Jiffy without the opposition noticing. Plus he's exceptional on the field, India's best fielder. I think the new faces in the English line up will find facing Jadeja trick as compared to Pandya's medium pace.

Pandya is as good a fielder as Jadeja.

[shortbread]

8 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Pandya is as good a fielder as Jadeja.

NO, Jadeja is India's best fielder closely followed by Kohli. Pandya is good but not in their league yet. Plus his bowling brings variety plus will be more effective than Pandya's medium pace.

[SK_IH]

17 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

will that batsman do better than Pandya. we should actually groom him as someone who can bat at 6.  Pandya did well with the ball too in his first spell, 5 over 11 runs when Root and JB were batting and in his 2nd spell, he had a lot of edges went for boundary.

this is pure conjecture, at the moment Pandya is playing on his supposed all round abilities. Pandya needs a massive upgrade in his bowling to get fixed slot in the side, he cannot play as a batsman in the side,we are just diluting our batting options by overestimating Ashwin and Pandya as batsman.Just because a batsman failed in a match, you cant justify someone else' position.Its the role of that player we should talk about because :

Is Pandya good enough to play as batsman ? No

Is Pandya good enough to play as bowler ? No

[R!TTER]

Just now, rkt.india said:

Pandya is as good a fielder as Jadeja.

Maybe in the short term, but Jadeja is consistently in the top 2 for about a decade now. His close in catching is shoddy but his rocket throws and outfield catching is unparalleled, even now. Also he's a much better bowler than Pandya, if anything his batting is just as highly underrated.

Pandya the A/R doesn't exist atm, if we're developing him with the series on the line we're doing it wrong! Every past A/R has performed his primary duties and contributed in the other facet(s) of the game over time. Right now Pandya is not a top 6 batter, he's also not a top 5 bowler!

Edited August 6, 2018 by R!TTER

[rkt.india]

11 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Maybe in the short term, but Jadeja is consistently in the top 2 for about a decade now. His close in catching is shoddy but his rocket throws and outfield catching is unparalleled, even now. Also he's a much better bowler than Pandya, if anything his batting is just as highly underrated.

Pandya the A/R doesn't exist atm, if we're developing him with the series on the line we're doing it wrong! Every past A/R has performed his primary duties and contributed in the other facet(s) of the game over time. Right now Pandya is not a top 6 batter, he's also not a top 5 bowler!

Pandya is doing better than any other batter accept Kohli, so, he is certainly in our top 6 better. you dont need five bowlers to tbh your 4 frontline bowlers are doing well.  we need a batsman who can bowl a few overs.  even if Pandya takes 1-2 wickets per game that is enough for me.

[rkt.india]

15 minutes ago, SK_IH said:

this is pure conjecture, at the moment Pandya is playing on his supposed all round abilities. Pandya needs a massive upgrade in his bowling to get fixed slot in the side, he cannot play as a batsman in the side,we are just diluting our batting options by overestimating Ashwin and Pandya as batsman.Just because a batsman failed in a match, you cant justify someone else' position.Its the role of that player we should talk about because :

Is Pandya good enough to play as batsman ? No

Is Pandya good enough to play as bowler ? No

how it is a conjecture when we have already seen that he was our 2nd best batsman in first test? 

[rkt.india]

20 minutes ago, shortbread said:

NO, Jadeja is India's best fielder closely followed by Kohli. Pandya is good but not in their league yet. Plus his bowling brings variety plus will be more effective than Pandya's medium pace.

Kohli is no way our best fielder. Kohli actually is a very average fielder. he is athletic for sure but but not the safest fielder.  Rahane is a better fielder than Kohli. Pandya has been as good as Jadeja and has turned several games on his fielding alone.  

[R!TTER]

Just now, rkt.india said:

Pandya is doing better than any other batter accept Kohli, so, he is certainly in our top 6 better. you dont need five bowlers to tbh your 4 frontline bowlers are doing well.  we need a batsman who can bowl a few overs.  even if Pandya takes 1-2 wickets per game that is enough for me.

Because he's batting down the order, not because he's better than the 5 players above him.

Yes we do, if our bowlers aren't doing what the Aus attack did in the Ashes, then we do need 5 bowlers. Even in India without 5 bowlers we wouldn't have won the series against England or Aus! This is because our pacers rarely win us a game on their own, in fact since Kapil I don't remember any pacer doing this for us.

[shortbread]

1 minute ago, rkt.india said:

how it is a conjecture when we have already seen that he was our 2nd best batsman in first test? 

He is not our second best batsman, he is simply the leading run scorer in a pack of failures. It's like calling Pappu who failed with 49% in a class of failures the 'first-rank holder', Badhai ho....mithai khaoo! Plus the guy bats down the line up when the top order have suffered a brunt (read 25-30 overs) of a fresh Dukes ball. If Pandya stepped into the line of fire when Dhawan, Vijay or Rahane was there he'd be back in 3-4 balls.

 

So no he's not India's second best batsmen like MI fans claim (second after lord NoH!t) and neither is he a viable bowler against the English batsmen. He's a decent fielder but not in the Jadeja/Kohli league yet.

 

So what India has is not a genuine all-round product yet, Pandya is the 'so-so of all trades and the master of none'. He's developing and might be an asset for the test team in the future, but brings very little to the table in this team when touring England. If one removes the fan glasses out of the way, would realize that as well!

[Lannister]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

Stokes is their 4th bowler, not fifth.  We already have a good 4th bowler in Ashwin.  Rashid is their fifth bowler who only came in to bowl to tailenders.  We need more of a batsman who can bowl some as we already have decent 4 bowlers.  We need more of a batting alrounder as opposed to England who depend on bowling of Stokes more because their spinner is not that effective.  We dont depend on Pandya's bowling as he is 5th bowler not 4th unlike Stokes who is their 4th bowler, but his batting is crucial for us.  

But we don't have good fast bowlers who bowl consistent line and lengths and keep scoring rate at the minimum and they also tend to have more off days compared to others. In such cases we will need a good 4th pace bowler who can atleast hold one end if he's not taking wickets. Pandya's bowling is just too one dimensional at the moment and he's unlikely to cause major upsets like what Stokes did. We missed a good 4th pace bowler in first innings and also in the second innings we let them add 90+ runs for last 3 wickets. 

[Lannister]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

the reason he did not get much ball is because our top 4 bowlers did well. 

It was not a 300 pitch. We let them off the hook in the first innings with indiscipline bowling. Pandya was going at 4.5 runs per an over which was the highest by any bowler in that match., that's why Kohli didn't trust him much.  

[rkt.india]

4 minutes ago, Lannister said:

It was not a 300 pitch. We let them off the hook in the first innings with indiscipline bowling. Pandya was going at 4.5 runs per an over which was the highest by any bowler in that match., that's why Kohli didn't trust him much.  

are bhai. pandya's first spell read 4 overs 11 runs  when their best batsmen in root and jb batted. he later came back when lower order batsman threw their bat around and several edges went through thirdman region.  it is not like he bowled badly.

 

Regarding first day, it was the best day to bat in the test under sunshine.  Later cloud covers helped our bowlers. They were 200/3 at one point and ball was doing nothing but as soon it got overcast in third session, our fast bowlers came into play.  None of Ishant, Shami, Yadav were able to get much and then Pandya stopped the scoring with his 5 over spell where he conceded just 11.

[shortbread]

Pandya's bowling in the 1st innings, source:cricinfo

 

Quote

77.6
Pandya to Curran, FOUR runs, oh yes! Glorious, through the covers. Length ball outside off ad he gets his hands through this so well, whacked on the up past cover
77.1
Pandya to Curran, FOUR runs, shot. Length ball outside off and he slaps it on the up, full extension of the arms, and gets it past cover

61.4
Pandya to Bairstow, 2 runs, back and across, works this through midwicket

61.2
Pandya to Bairstow, FOUR runs, that's a handsome shot, he gets onto the front foot and plays a punchy on-drive which beats mid-on...nice way to reach his fifty off 72 balls

57.6
Pandya to Bairstow, 1 run, back of a length, straight, flicked to the right of mid-on

57.4
Pandya to Root, 1 run, a shorter ball, he plays back and steers it through backward point with an open face
57.3
Pandya to Bairstow, 1 run, wide outside off, comes off the toe end as Bairstow drives and runs to third man
57.2
Pandya to Root, 1 run, a short ball well wide of off stump, comes slowly off the pitch and Root drags it out to deep midwicket

55.6
Pandya to Root, FOUR runs, follows up with a short ball, angling leg side, Root pulls it fine for back-to-back boundaries
55.5
Pandya to Root, FOUR runs, goes full at the stumps, that's a very nice piece of timing through the leg side as he clips it wide of mid-on

25.3
Pandya to Jennings, FOUR runs, nicely done. Length ball wide outside off, and Keaton gives himself some indulgence. Reaches out a long way away from the body and taps it to the cover boundary

2

Pandya was out of his depth bowling against English batsmen in these conditions. He could neither take wickets nor contain runs. So he's not the 4th, 5thor 6th bowler India needs as the opposition will simply relish his overs. 

[shortbread]

The thing is it's the fans and the Indian media that created this aura of an exceptional all-rounder. That's fine, it tends to happen in Indian cricket from time to time. The issue is when you see Pandya you get the feeling he's buying into this hype as well. India needs a 5th bowler who can contain runs especially if the seamers are struggling with the old ball, Pandya is not that answer.

[Lannister]

19 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

are bhai. pandya's first spell read 4 overs 11 runs  when their best batsmen in root and jb batted. he later came back when lower order batsman threw their bat around and several edges went through thirdman region.  it is not like he bowled badly.

Let's say if you have 2 wickets to take at an extremely important point of the match, would you you give it to Pandya like how Root depended on Stokes? If not, then what's Pandya's role within this team if not for his bowling, because he don't have a single century in Test cricket if he's there for his batting. 

 

22 minutes ago, rkt.india said:

Regarding first day, it was the best day to bat in the test under sunshine.  Later cloud covers helped our bowlers. They were 200/3 at one point and ball was doing nothing but as soon it got overcast in third session, our fast bowlers came into play.  None of Ishant, Shami, Yadav were able to get much and then Pandya stopped the scoring with his 5 over spell where he conceded just 11.

There was a lot of loose deliveries from our bowlers and especially at the initial start of the day. There's a reason we almost certainly fail to win matches if we just go with the 4 bowlers in places like AUS, NZ, Eng and SA. 

[raki05]

I think the main issue that we lost is our too order and to be precise dhwan who is as useless as it gets in batting as well as fielding. I can assure you that an extra batsmen in place of Pandya ( pujara or Nair) would not have made any difference in context of the March. At least Pandya with his limited experience in first class has much better determination than lot of top order batsmen including Rahwne.

[SK_IH]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

how it is a conjecture when we have already seen that he was our 2nd best batsman in first test? 

you said will that new batsman do better than Pandya , i said no its conjecture and now you have stated ^^ this, confused?