Most wickets in 2018

[Muloghonto]

On 12/8/2018 at 11:22 PM, Mumbai Lobby said:

Somehow Lyon is so much better than Ashwin per this forum

 

Average 35+ SR 75+ compared to average <25 and SR < 60

Its mostly because 99% of Indian fans do not realize, that this India team, over the last 5-6 years, is the worst Indian team since atleast the 1960s, when it comes to playing spin. 
Our best player of spin by a country mile- Pujara, is noticably behind the likes of Tendy, Azhar, Sidhu, Ganguly, Laxman, Sehwag, Manjrekar, Vengsarkar, Gavaskar, Umrigar - pretty much anyone- in that category. Our 2nd best batsman against spin - Kohli is about as far behind in playing spin to these spin-maharathis as the likes of Azhar, Sidhu, Manjrekar etc were at playing pace on swinging, seaming wickets to Kohli. 

I am not kidding when i say that the likes of Rahane or Rahul, when it comes to playing spin, are about on par with the likes of Nayan Mongia/Saba Karim. Thats how far we've fallen. 

As such, Indians are not used to seeing opposition spinners doing better than our own in h2h contests. Its a lot easier to blame 1 or 2 guys - aka our spinners- than it is to accept that the consequence of India's fanatical obsession to win overseas, from the late 90s onwards ( instilled by the Ganguly captaincy regime) has lead to such structural changes that our batsmen have become much better at playing pace at the consequence of being much crappier at playing spin. 

Used to be a 'given' that our batsmen were so much superior at playing spin that playing vs India, someone like Warney or Saqlain = as effective as Raju or Chauhan is against them. 

[rkt.india]

7 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Its mostly because 99% of Indian fans do not realize, that this India team, over the last 5-6 years, is the worst Indian team since atleast the 1960s, when it comes to playing spin. 
Our best player of spin by a country mile- Pujara, is noticably behind the likes of Tendy, Azhar, Sidhu, Ganguly, Laxman, Sehwag, Manjrekar, Vengsarkar, Gavaskar, Umrigar - pretty much anyone- in that category. 

This is some rubbish. we have seen liked of tendy, gangu, Dravid, Laxman crumbling against very ordinary spinners at home.  This statement of yours has no basis when we have seen that we have seen more spin friendly pitches in India since 2012 than lat 25-30 years and the same Pujara on those same pitches is averaging 65 at home and you are saying he is worse than Gangu and Sidhu against spin.  yes, gangu and Sidhu could bash spin on flat pitches but on rank turners, I dont see many better batsman than Pujara.  He is as close to SRT, Dravid or Laxman against spin. Never saw Gavaskar so wont comment. You just need to watch his innings against Lyon on a minefield in Delhi in 2013 test series where every other batsman struggled, his was a masterclass in 4th innings of how to play spin on a minefield.  Lyon had run through Indian batting in that test.

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

This is some rubbish. we have seen liked of tendy, gangu, Dravid, Laxman crumbling against very ordinary spinners at home.

And we've seen Kohli and co get owned by some ordinary pacers. One offs do not make a case. 

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

  This statement of yours has no basis when we have seen that we have seen more spin friendly pitches in India since 2012 than lat 25-30 years and the same Pujara on those same pitches is averaging 65 at home and you are saying he is worse than Gangu and Sidhu against spin.

Yep. much worse. 

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

  yes, gangu and Sidhu could bash spin on flat pitches but on rank turners, I dont see many better batsman than Pujara. 

Thats coz to you, everything new = better and you are either too young or not too observant to realize the cycles in sports. Sidhu could make Warney weep on square turners. Since Pujara does not get to bat against such great spinners, he will have to settle for a lower proven status. Simple. 

1 hour ago, rkt.india said:

He is as close to SRT, Dravid or Laxman against spin. Never saw Gavaskar so wont comment. You just need to watch his innings against Lyon on a minefield in Delhi in 2013 test series where every other batsman struggled, his was a masterclass in 4th innings of how to play spin on a minefield.  Lyon had run through Indian batting in that test.

Yeah. Lyon on a minefield vs Azhar on a square turner vs Warney. I know which one i will rate higher. Pujara is a very good batsman against spinners. But all-time great, he is not. Same with Kohli vs pace - very good but i know i'd pick a dozen others on pitches with bounce, swing or seam. 

[Lala]

Lol anderson played most of the matches and yet to be first. May be not cloudy as expected when he played few matches 

[rkt.india]

1 hour ago, Muloghonto said:

And we've seen Kohli and co get owned by some ordinary pacers. One offs do not make a case. 

Yep. much worse. 

Thats coz to you, everything new = better and you are either too young or not too observant to realize the cycles in sports. Sidhu could make Warney weep on square turners. Since Pujara does not get to bat against such great spinners, he will have to settle for a lower proven status. Simple. 

Yeah. Lyon on a minefield vs Azhar on a square turner vs Warney. I know which one i will rate higher. Pujara is a very good batsman against spinners. But all-time great, he is not. Same with Kohli vs pace - very good but i know i'd pick a dozen others on pitches with bounce, swing or seam. 

And Warne was poor in India while inferior spinners have done better than him.  Name has little meaning without performance.  Also sweeping Warne was no big deal.  Wrist spinners are easier to sweep unless you are someone like Kumble who bowls quick in the air. Warne's slowness was the biggest reason he struggled in India.  IMO, Pujara is one of the best ever Indian batsmen when it comes to playing spin.  Kohli is neither great against pace nor spin but he is a determined cricketer. it is also about conditions.  A great spinner on flat track can easily be outbowled by a mediocre spinner on a dustbowl. for me, reputation of a bowler is overrated and conditions are what dictate the game.

Edited December 11, 2018 by rkt.india

[Rightarmfast]

2 hours ago, rkt.india said:

And Warne was poor in India while inferior spinners have done better than him.  Name has little meaning without performance.  Also sweeping Warne was no big deal.  Wrist spinners are easier to sweep unless you are someone like Kumble who bowls quick in the air. Warne's slowness was the biggest reason he struggled in India.  IMO, Pujara is one of the best ever Indian batsmen when it comes to playing spin.  Kohli is neither great against pace nor spin but he is a determined cricketer. it is also about conditions.  A great spinner on flat track can easily be outbowled by a mediocre spinner on a dustbowl. for me, reputation of a bowler is overrated and conditions are what dictate the game.

No offence, but I think you were too young around 97-98. That comment about Warne is as immature as it can get. Also, the players of today are no match to the players of yesteryears when it comes to playing spin. This Indian team is pathetic against spin, and although Pujara can hold on to his end, I dont think a comparison with players like Azhar, Sidhu or any other batsman for that matter, will be fair. 

To give you a perspective, Muralitharan averages over 32 against India, and averages over 45, when playing in India!!! I dont need to tell you his average against the other teams. All teams except Australia, in Australia struggled against him.

 

I am not sure if I agree with your 2nd point either. Firstly, you dont compare apple to oranges. Secondly, the reputation of a bowler is made when they make an impression against the condition, relatively better than other players. Ofcourse, adverse conditions will affect the performance. Glenn Mcgrath, however averages 21 in India. 

[Rightarmfast]

6 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

Nope, didn't mean that actually. I was talking about him with regards to the performances among the Indian bowlers, in the specified time period. He has the second best strike rate. Among those who are top 3 wicket takers he has the best strike rate. I rate him as second best pacer after Bumrah at this point of time. 

I sure am missing something here. The stats I see, show Pandya's strike rate to be the worst among all other bowlers! His average is worse than any other bowler. How is it exactly that he is ending up as the 2nd best pacer?

[gattaca]

3 hours ago, rkt.india said:

And Warne was poor in India while inferior spinners have done better than him.  Name has little meaning without performance.  Also sweeping Warne was no big deal.  Wrist spinners are easier to sweep unless you are someone like Kumble who bowls quick in the air. Warne's slowness was the biggest reason he struggled in India.  IMO, Pujara is one of the best ever Indian batsmen when it comes to playing spin.  Kohli is neither great against pace nor spin but he is a determined cricketer. it is also about conditions.  A great spinner on flat track can easily be outbowled by a mediocre spinner on a dustbowl. for me, reputation of a bowler is overrated and conditions are what dictate the game.

No. The best ever Indian batsman when it comes to spin is VVS. He man handled Warne and played Murali very well. Murali himself said its very tough to bowl to laxman because place the very well and bisect the field and tough to set fields for him. 

[Rightarmfast]

6 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

I am not kidding when i say that the likes of Rahane or Rahul, when it comes to playing spin, are about on par with the likes of Nayan Mongia/Saba Karim. Thats how far we've fallen. 

 

Saba Karim was a damn good player, plagued with bad luck. He was one of the batsmen who could perform in adverse conditions and against the best of bowlers. He was unlucky to be not given chance because of politics. You got it wrong there.

[Straight Drive]

58 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

I sure am missing something here. The stats I see, show Pandya's strike rate to be the worst among all other bowlers! His average is worse than any other bowler. How is it exactly that he is ending up as the 2nd best pacer?

I am referring to Shami.  

 

 

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, rkt.india said:

And Warne was poor in India while inferior spinners have done better than him.  Name has little meaning without performance.  Also sweeping Warne was no big deal.  Wrist spinners are easier to sweep unless you are someone like Kumble who bowls quick in the air. Warne's slowness was the biggest reason he struggled in India.  IMO, Pujara is one of the best ever Indian batsmen when it comes to playing spin.  Kohli is neither great against pace nor spin but he is a determined cricketer. it is also about conditions.  A great spinner on flat track can easily be outbowled by a mediocre spinner on a dustbowl. for me, reputation of a bowler is overrated and conditions are what dictate the game.

It takes two to tango. Warne was poor in India because our batsmen were too good against him and ate him alive. 

Offies are always easier to sweep than leggies for right handers for the simple physics of playing WITH the spin vs against the spin. 

For me, it is clear that you hardly watched any cricket till ten years ago or have a severe recency bias. 

I did say Pujara is extremely good at playing spin. But he isnt as good as a dozen batsmen who came before him. 

[Muloghonto]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Saba Karim was a damn good player, plagued with bad luck. He was one of the batsmen who could perform in adverse conditions and against the best of bowlers. He was unlucky to be not given chance because of politics. You got it wrong there.

I agree,though the caveat is, i think Saba Karim was a really good batsman for a wicketkeeper. 

[Muloghonto]

On a more relevant note, India and Australia have 2 more tests to go this year, South Africa and Pakistan have 1 more, New Zealand and Sri Lanka have 2 more. 

 

While Rabada and Perera have healthy leads over the next active players, its possible (though unlikely) for Ashwin, Lyon and Shami to usurp the #1 spot. 
Anderson is almost certainly losing his #3 spot. 

[Rightarmfast]

3 hours ago, Straight Drive said:

I am referring to Shami.  

 

 

Bro, ofcourse Shami is 2nd best to Bumrah. As a matter of fact, I used to rate Shami in the worlds top 3 bowlers till the beginning of this year.

[Muloghonto]

2 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Bro, ofcourse Shami is 2nd best to Bumrah. As a matter of fact, I used to rate Shami in the worlds top 3 bowlers till the beginning of this year.

I am not a conspiracy theorist at the very least, nor do i go by looks very often but lately something has been bothering me: Shami really does look - even for 'desi build guys' to be more like a late 30s guy than a late 20s guy. How credible do you think are the rumors of 'Shami is much older than his advertised age' ? 

[Rightarmfast]

4 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

On a more relevant note, India and Australia have 2 more tests to go this year, South Africa and Pakistan have 1 more, New Zealand and Sri Lanka have 2 more. 

 

While Rabada and Perera have healthy leads over the next active players, its possible (though unlikely) for Ashwin, Lyon and Shami to usurp the #1 spot. 
Anderson is almost certainly losing his #3 spot. 

Never liked Anderson. Clouderson defines him better. The next year is going to be interesting. I dont know India's schedule but this Indian bowling unit just may push over the other bowlers and proclaim the worlds best bowling unit tag.

[Muloghonto]

1 minute ago, Rightarmfast said:

Never liked Anderson. Clouderson defines him better. The next year is going to be interesting. I dont know India's schedule but this Indian bowling unit just may push over the other bowlers and proclaim the worlds best bowling unit tag.

This is 'supposed to be' the schedule:

http://i.imgci.com/db/DOWNLOAD/0000/0045/ftp_2018_2023.pdf

 

Given India's track record, i think the series vs RSA, ENG, AUS are set in stone, with SL series 'moved around at convinience of SLCB and BCCI' and NZ-WI-ZIM-BD series totally up in the air. 

 

India is 'supposed to' finish off the OZ tour with 1 test in 2019, play 1 test at home vs ZIM, 2 tests away in West Indies, 3 tests at home vs RSA and 2 tests at home vs BD. 

So really 3 overseas tests and 6 home tests. Not very promising outlook for fast bowlers to make hay but given that ABDV is retired from tests and Amla is free-falling, Ash-Jaddu must be licking their lips in delight looking at that schedule.

[Trichromatic]

21 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I am not a conspiracy theorist at the very least, nor do i go by looks very often but lately something has been bothering me: Shami really does look - even for 'desi build guys' to be more like a late 30s guy than a late 20s guy. How credible do you think are the rumors of 'Shami is much older than his advertised age' ? 

Answer may be simple. You have followed careers of so many bowlers. How easy is it for bowlers to clock 140 avg speed during a long 5th day after age of 32-33? 

 

Shami was doing it without huffing and puffing. Either he is not more than 32 or he is super fit and strong to be able to bowl at such speeds consistently in late 30s.

 

If Shami survives this pace for another 2 years then I would say that he could be 30 or 31 max right now. 

 

[Muloghonto]

Just now, Trichromatic said:

Answer may be simple. You have followed careers of so many bowlers. How easy is it for bowlers to clock 140 avg speed after a long day after age of 32-33? 

 

Shami was doing it without huffing and puffing. Either he is not more than 32 or he is super fit and strong to be able to bowl at such speeds consistently in late 30s.

 

 

well i said he looks late 30s- not that he is late 30s. His advertised age is 28. So even if he is 32, that still falls into my query of 'is he fudging his age'....

[Rightarmfast]

22 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

I am not a conspiracy theorist at the very least, nor do i go by looks very often but lately something has been bothering me: Shami really does look - even for 'desi build guys' to be more like a late 30s guy than a late 20s guy. How credible do you think are the rumors of 'Shami is much older than his advertised age' ? 

He must be 2-3 yrs older than his certificate age. But no more than that. His pace is still around 145ish. A 40 yr old cant bowl at that pace consistently.