Try Pant as an opener

[zen]

7 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

No basically you are using some filters to come up with a solution to a problem that never exists in the first place. India is ranked no.2.  Rohit is world no.2. You don't become world no.2 just by bashing minnows. 

 

In the last 2 years performance of Indian batsmen in matches won by India. A genuine match winner at the top with 11 centuries. Only guy who can produce those big overs. Dhawan  after 40th over vs Rohit after 40th over not even a comparison. Look at the number of sixes he can hit.  You just randomly come up with a suggestion to replace this guy  based on "ICC filter". 

 

 

Already discussed the point on bilaterals, where teams sometimes are not even at full strength (a point you wanted to make early on Eng)  .... a good player in bilaterals, where teams may not be full strength and where you get multi-opps vs the same side, but a SL-BD specialist so far in ICC events .... If Rohit fanboys expect others to evaluate him based on how they dream about him, it is being too optimistic

Edited February 21, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

Against Honkong India added 48 runs in the last 10 overs, which almost cost the match for us. We have to worry about finishing an innings with bat. India can be 240 for 1 after 40 overs. If both the players get out we migth struggle to get to 290. India is missing finishers. Pandya is the only hope. He is inconsistent. Now injury ridden.

 

[Nikola]

Lol so op is telling me shikhar dhawan who struggled against oshane thomas's pace in home conditions and lockie ferguson in new Zealand is better than Rohit who was hitting these bowlers for fun.

 

Btw he is rohit fan doesn't matter if he proved the point that jadeja is better batsman than rohit in his post.

Edited February 21, 2019 by Nikola

[vvvslaxman]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

Already discussed the point on bilaterals, where teams sometimes are not even at full strength (a point you wanted to make early on Eng) .... If Rohit fanboys expect others to evaluate him based on how they dream about him, it is being too optimistic

SO there is a bilateral starc ICC starc, bilateral cummins ICC cummins. i get it lol  It is not fanboys. I am not even his fan. I am just saying your suggestion has no merit or sound basis. It is just a random wild suggestion based on nothing. You use some weird filters to justify your suggestion. I get it . I would keep doing the same too if i come up with a suggestion.  When you think he doesn't bat well in the "ICC tournaments against big teams", shouldn't your suggestion be "Let us drop Rohit against those teams' instead of "pushing him down the order"?  Why do you think Rohit will do well against the same set of teams when he bats in the middle overs? 

[zen]

20 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

SO there is a bilateral starc ICC starc, bilateral cummins ICC cummins. i get it lol  It is not fanboys. I am not even his fan. I am just saying your suggestion has no merit or sound basis. It is just a random wild suggestion based on nothing. You use some weird filters to justify your suggestion. I get it . I would keep doing the same too if i come up with a suggestion.  When you think he doesn't bat well in the "ICC tournaments against big teams", shouldn't your suggestion be "Let us drop Rohit against those teams' instead of "pushing him down the order"?  Why do you think Rohit will do well against the same set of teams when he bats in the middle overs? 

Good suggestions result in opening with Sachin in NZ, or bringing Shaw in, and so on   

 

This is about optimizing the PP better, while you yourself said the MO options are relatively weak so I expect Rohit to be as good if not as bad as others in the MO (among those expected to be in the squad for the WC) .... here PP gets optimized, and MO, which is unsure about its #4 can get name (both cases where an improvement is needed. Trying this options does not make it worse than what it already is but can potentially make it much better. And as has been written (and you keep forgetting), I gave Rohit credit for being an improved player than what he was when he started)   

 

But Rohit struggles in the MO

• As a MO batsman, Rohit averages 34, which is not much considering the options we have 
• However, Rohit played in the MO a long time ago. If he is an improved batsman now, he should be able to be successful in MO
• If not, it shows that players of similar talent cash in when opening so it would be hard to blame our MO if it fails
• It should not be about what benefits Rohit, but what benefits the team more 

 

And if you "read" the OP, the next steps are 

 

"So what are the next steps?

• Give Pant, if he is expected to be in the WC squad, an opportunity to open in LOIs vs Aus 
• Evaluate his performances to see how he can be used as an opener in the WC to counter some of the challenges discussed here and elsewhere 
• Last thing we want to do is not try at all. A bilateral series could serve to pad up the stats of the incumbent opener but may not help Ind in the world event to the extent they would have hoped"

 

 

PS basically you did not read/understand the OP and are asking the same things in different way 

Edited February 21, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

India rarely lose matches these days. If at all they lose it is because of top order failure or our bowling is crappy. This has been the case for the last couple of years. Even in England with a substandard front line bowlers we still managed to win a game. If you ask me to rank India's problems , scoring in the PP would not even make my top 10 list.

 

1) middle order

2) middle order

3) middle order

 

... then few others before even we talk about powerplay.  India lacks power hitting down the order. Pandya or bust situation now. An injury prone Jadhav, old man Dhoni who can't rotate strike to save his life, Raydu who is sh*t scared of any ball that is more than 140k. Also Indians don't dominate spinners as well as they used to.  This is the same thought process went in 2007 world cup. They sent Uthappam and Sehwag. We all know what happened. Just leave your best batsmen in their usual position. Tinkering will impact both batting positions also Dhawan as well. They know how to win matches. Rohit tried with Mumbai Indians. Didn't exactly work out well.

[vvvslaxman]

In T20 era you could split 50 over game into 20+10+20. Conservative estimate.  20=100, 10=60 20=150  That will give you 310 easily. Going after bowling in mad panic in the first 10 overs was the style of 90s game as they never believed they could go after bowling in the middle overs. They relied on field restrictions. England does this because they CAN. That is it. If they have a weak middle and lower order they would also play conservatively.

[vvvslaxman]

 

 

https://www.hindustantimes.com/cricket/sachin-tendulkar-blasts-greg-chappell-s-tactics-at-2007-icc-world-cup/story-fvJjNF5JrI5qgTtkVAr1DI.html

 

"A number of senior players disagreed with the manner in which Chappel was handling our side. Just before a month from the World Cup, he made drastic changes in the batting order that affected everyone in the side. And, they were not needed. Other teams had been practicing according to their plans and strategies for the past one year then. But we were still experimenting with our side,” Tendulkar is seen narrating in the movie.

[zen]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

India rarely lose matches these days. If at all they lose it is because of top order failure or our bowling is crappy. This has been the case for the last couple of years. Even in England with a substandard front line bowlers we still managed to win a game. If you ask me to rank India's problems , scoring in the PP would not even make my top 10 list.

 

1) middle order

2) middle order

3) middle order

 

... then few others before even we talk about powerplay.  India lacks power hitting down the order. Pandya or bust situation now. An injury prone Jadhav, old man Dhoni who can't rotate strike to save his life, Raydu who is sh*t scared of any ball that is more than 140k. Also Indians don't dominate spinners as well as they used to.  This is the same thought process went in 2007 world cup. They sent Uthappam and Sehwag. We all know what happened. Just leave your best batsmen in their usual position. Tinkering will impact both batting positions also Dhawan as well. They know how to win matches. Rohit tried with Mumbai Indians. Didn't exactly work out well.

Buddy, I understand where you are coming from .... But the squad, along with key players, is very much finalized (from what i perceive)  .... Only thing we can do is fine tune the playing 11, which includes optimizing the batting order 

 

The positive thing is that TM showed confidence in Pant, which is why he will make it to the squad (DK lost out?). And they also tried to leverage on his big hitting by playing him in top order in T20s. So they may do this in LOIs if par scores are high and we do not get the starts we hoped for 

[vvvslaxman]

2 minutes ago, zen said:

Buddy, I understand where you are coming from .... But the squad, along with key players, is very much finalized (from what i perceive)  .... Only thing we can do is fine tune the playing 11, which includes optimizing the batting order 

 

The positive thing is that TM showed confidence in Pant, which is why he will make it to the squad (DK lost out?). And they also tried to leverage on his big hitting by playing him in top order in T20s. So they may do this in LOIs if par scores are high and we do not get the starts we hoped for 

Pant is a reserve keeper and a possible replacement of Rayudu or even Jadhav who is an injury prone guy.  My worry is what will India do after top 3 get out. Be it is 10 runs or 100 runs or 200 runs we will end up with well below par score in such scenarios. I am hoping India plays 5 solid bowling options. India's only hope is restricting opposition to lower total and expecting tuk tuk masters in the middle to chase at their own pace.

[zen]

58 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Pant is a reserve keeper and a possible replacement of Rayudu or even Jadhav who is an injury prone guy.  My worry is what will India do after top 3 get out. Be it is 10 runs or 100 runs or 200 runs we will end up with well below par score in such scenarios. I am hoping India plays 5 solid bowling options. India's only hope is restricting opposition to lower total and expecting tuk tuk masters in the middle to chase at their own pace.

That is a pessimistic view. If we play the WC, we have to put our best foot forward  .... if we can only win in a certain way, we  have limited our potential and are probably already out of it   .... Anything can happen in a game, we have to be prepared to take on various challenges 

If the big 3 + 2-3 key bowlers bail Ind out, it is great but they may not be able to do it consistently (other teams are there to win too). It appears as if others in the team do not play much role for you?! .... You termed MO weak but allocated 7.5 RPO over last 20 overs, where usually guys from MO bat. We have to give others platform to succeed as well to win such a long tournament (and where other teams are expected to play at full strength) .... To qualify for KO w/o complications, a team may need to win 7 games out of 9 

 

This is a new tournament, with its own challenges. New innovations can spring up. We cannot always replay the past .... we also have to learn from teams that do well in those conditions (unless we are an ATG team that most often than not only needs to show up) 

 

PS Note that round-robin format means that some of the SENA teams that crack under KO pressure, will face relatively less pressure until the last few games if qualification scenarios complicate. We play most of the SENA teams early on. In fact first 3 games are vs SA, Aus and NZ iirc 

 

 

 

Edited February 21, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

There is a reason why India reaches the finals more than other teams in all these tournaments. As a unit when India clicks they are pretty much unstoppable. Many teams are not able to do that. You have only looked at the batting part. If you look at the bowling part Pakistan and India have the best economic rates 4.76, 5.03 respectively in recent times. England/Australia/West Indies are horrible. As a bowling and batting combo India is significantly better than every other team in terms of runs scored/run conceded ratio.  India's major tournament wins were a result of outstanding bowling performances. Binny (WC1983), Zaheer (WC2011), RP Singh (WT2007), L Siva (Benson * Hedges 1985), Jadeja (2013 CT).  This time we have more than a couple of trump cards. They just have to be at their best. Things will fall in place. 

[zen]

24 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

There is a reason why India reaches the finals more than other teams in all these tournaments. As a unit when India clicks they are pretty much unstoppable. Many teams are not able to do that. You have only looked at the batting part. If you look at the bowling part Pakistan and India have the best economic rates 4.76, 5.03 respectively in recent times. England/Australia/West Indies are horrible. As a bowling and batting combo India is significantly better than every other team in terms of runs scored/run conceded ratio.  India's major tournament wins were a result of outstanding bowling performances. Binny (WC1983), Zaheer (WC2011), RP Singh (WT2007), L Siva (Benson * Hedges 1985), Jadeja (2013 CT).  This time we have more than a couple of trump cards. They just have to be at their best. Things will fall in place. 

Yeah, bowling is settled. But it does not mean, it can consistently keep teams below par if conditions favor batting .... a couple of players can have a good day and take the bowlers apart (For e.g. WC15SF, CT17F or the T20SF vs WI)

 

Conservative approach (for e.g. relative tuktuk by Rahane in that T20SF) has let us down recently at key moments .... On the other hand, when we tried new things such as opening with Rohit and Dhawan in 2013, along with playing with passion and freedom, it paid dividends. IIRC, we did not expose Ashwin much in 2011 WC. Also switched batting positions (Dhoni promoted himself), Yuvi appeared to be enjoying his game in 2011 

 

At the end of the day, we all want Ind to win (or at least do well), hence the discussion 

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by zen

[flamy]

3 hours ago, zen said:

Shaw, Agarwal and Pant have done well! 

 

And can we expect Rohit to match Dhawan's performance this time and go at 73 at 102 vs the 6 major teams in this WC (not even vs all 9 teams) 

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Australia  or England  or New Zealand  or Pakistan  or South Africa  or West Indies

Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 2013

Trophy ICC Champions Trophy (ICC KnockOut)  or World Cup

Qualifications runs scored greater than or equal to 100

Ordered by batting average (descending)

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Overall figures

Player	Span	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
S Dhawan	2013-2017	11	11	1	726	137	72.60	713	101.82	3	3	0	81	9
V Kohli	2013-2017	11	11	3	467	107	58.37	533	87.61	1	2	0	42	5
AM Rahane	2015-2015	4	4	0	137	79	34.25	163	84.04	0	1	1	11	3
MS Dhoni	2013-2017	11	7	1	177	65	29.50	191	92.67	0	1	1	13	4
RG Sharma	2013-2017	11	11	0	303	91	27.54	417	72.66	0	3	2	30	6
RA Jadeja	2013-2017	11	7	2	129	47*	25.80	129	100.00	0	0	0	13	3
SK Raina	2013-2015	8	6	0	119	74	19.83	109	109.17	0	1	0	9	4

Shaw and Agarwal haven't even played ODIs yet

 

You are asking to fix something that isn't broken with something that isn't even proven to work yet.

 

WC is simply not the time to make such big changes based on potential and theory.

[zen]

29 minutes ago, flamy said:

Shaw and Agarwal haven't even played ODIs yet

 

You are asking to fix something that isn't broken with something that isn't even proven to work yet.

 

WC is simply not the time to make such big changes based on potential and theory.

So? They hadn’t played tests but were successful. Can’t write off players with potential based on he hasn’t played yet mumbo jumbo (may be you supported Murali Vijay over them) 

 

Since you decided to focus on points already argued on your behalf in the OP, can I take it that there is not much optimism about Rohit’s performance vs mentioned teams?  

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by zen

[zen]

I hope that Pant gets opportunities to open in some of the LOIs vs Aus  

 

[zen]

Missed opportunity to not try Pant to open .... his game is to go all out rather than take singles here and there 

 

Need someone to play fearless cricket at the top to try to make an impact w/o worrying about getting out .... someone with full licence

[ShoonyaSifar]

First of all let him keep wickets. He has been a keeper batsman all his life. Playing him as a specialist batsman, we are only ruining his future. All for the ego of that 38 yr old grandpa who continues to play even T20s playing one useless knock after another to boost his average

[UrmiSinhaRay]

First of all let him keep wickets. He has been a keeper batsman all his life. Playing him as a specialist batsman, we are only ruining his future. All for the ego of that 38 yr old grandpa who continues to play even T20s playing one useless knock after another to boost his average

Super funny was to see him Kowtowing to Dhoni who simply doesn't care.
Even in that cringefest ipl ad.
Lool

Sent from my CPH1609 using Tapatalk

[zen]

the incumbent has started to fail in bilaterals. With 3 ODIs to go, try KL and/or Pant as opener