Last 10 overs

[vvvslaxman]

As long as the top 7 can protect their wickets and go at a reasonable rate we will be fine. Any middle order collapse will lead to under par total like we had against Australia in the last series. 233/6 at 45th over to 250 all out with Kuldeep and Bumrah couldn't even take the game to 50th over. India's best bowlers can't bat for sh*t.  Players with reasonable batting potential are not exactly as good as the other bowlers. This will be the case especially when we bat first.

[zen]

26 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

As long as the top 7 can protect their wickets and go at a reasonable rate we will be fine. Any middle order collapse will lead to under par total like we had against Australia in the last series. 233/6 at 45th over to 250 all out with Kuldeep and Bumrah couldn't even take the game to 50th over. India's best bowlers can't bat for sh*t.  Players with reasonable batting potential are not exactly as good as the other bowlers. This will be the case especially when we bat first.

Irrelevant points as

a) RR depends upon the evaluated par scores 

b) Good players/teams play at necessary RR 

c) the avg of #8-11 for major teams off late is around 15. Therefore, the top 7 of major teams do make bulk of runs at the necessary RR 

d) Playing at necessary RR does not equal to losing wickets ( not “reasonable” RR which I am interpreting as going slower than required. One should bat like how Rahane did in a T20 WC SF and Yuvi in a T20 WC final)

e) The idea is to play to win a game and not show we are in it for a certain period by constantly increasing the RRR to get to the necessary total. You win a game by doing what it takes to win (and not by under performing for most parts in hopes of doing well later on or by aiming for avg results) 

Edited April 17, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Irrelevant points as

a) RR depends upon the evaluated par scores 

b) Good players/teams play at necessary RR 

c) the avg of #8-11 for major teams off late is around 15. Therefore, the top 7 of major teams do make bulk of runs at the necessary RR 

d) Playing at necessary RR does not equal to losing wickets ( not “reasonable” RR which I am interpreting as going slower than required. One should bat like how Rahane did in a T20 WC SF and Yuvi in a T20 WC final)

e) The idea is to play to win a game and not show we are in it for a certain period by constantly increasing the RRR to get to the necessary total. You win a game by doing what it takes to win (and not by under performing for most parts in hopes of doing well later on or by aiming for avg results) 

Average will give you a false picture. It is about the ability of batsman sticking around.  Pretty much the same thing we saw in Test matches where  a little bit of resistance from tail would have earned a couple more test wins. Sam Curran purely with his tailender batting skill won 2 test matches. Not very dissimilar in one dayers.  Shami averages 4.4 Bumrah averages 4.5  Chahal averages 8  Kuldeep 12.  in the last 2 years. Their average is 28 runs between them. Santner, Ali, Rashid, Woakes, Southee, Cummins, Jhye Richardson all can better than any of these 4. Infact  Cummins and Jhye Richardson won a match scoring 14 runs in the last over. You really think these guys can do?  We have had Kumble, Srinath, Zaheer, Agarkar who could all bat or stick around in the past.

[vvvslaxman]

You are looking at a perfect scenario where top 7 will always score bulk of the runs. This line up is not cut to do that. Even with Tendulkar, Gambhir, Sehwag, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Kohli, Raina we needed at times tail to wag in 2011 world cup. Against South Africa, England, Pakistan. In all those matches India needed tail to wag. Zaheer/Nehra/Munaf/Bhajji failed on  each occasion. This line up can't hold handle to that line up.  This is an unreliable middle order.

[zen]

28 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Average will give you a false picture. It is about the ability of batsman sticking around.  Pretty much the same thing we saw in Test matches where  a little bit of resistance from tail would have earned a couple more test wins. Sam Curran purely with his tailender batting skill won 2 test matches. Not very dissimilar in one dayers.  Shami averages 4.4 Bumrah averages 4.5  Chahal averages 8  Kuldeep 12.  in the last 2 years. Their average is 28 runs between them. Santner, Ali, Rashid, Woakes, Southee, Cummins, Jhye Richardson all can better than any of these 4. Infact  Cummins and Jhye Richardson won a match scoring 14 runs in the last over. You really think these guys can do?  We have had Kumble, Srinath, Zaheer, Agarkar who could all bat or stick around in the past.

The data is posted here of how the guys in lower order have done recently and includes players who all played of their teams! 

[vvvslaxman]

5 minutes ago, zen said:

The data is posted here of how the guys in lower order have done recently and includes players who all played of their teams! 

What is the highest score of some of their players compared to ours. Santner has got a 50. Woakes got a 50. Moeen ALi, Rashid both can hit 50. This average will not make Moeen Ali = Shami , Rashid = Kuldeep, Santner = Chahal. 

[zen]

25 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You are looking at a perfect scenario where top 7 will always score bulk of the runs. This line up is not cut to do that. Even with Tendulkar, Gambhir, Sehwag, Yuvraj, Dhoni, Kohli, Raina we needed at times tail to wag in 2011 world cup. Against South Africa, England, Pakistan. In all those matches India needed tail to wag. Zaheer/Nehra/Munaf/Bhajji failed on  each occasion. This line up can't hold handle to that line up.  This is an unreliable middle order.

This is about what happens more often than not. In the last 12 months:

 

1-7:

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Start of match date between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019

Batting position between 1 and 7

Grouped by team

Ordered by runs scored (descending)

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Showing 1 - 5 of 5

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Overall figures

Team	Players	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
India	17	27	160	29	6032	162	46.04	6692	90.13	15	23	10	578	114
Australia	13	21	141	12	4983	153*	38.62	5507	90.48	10	26	9	437	93
England	11	19	113	17	4260	150	44.37	4098	103.95	12	21	7	438	101
South Africa	15	21	131	27	4164	139	40.03	4560	91.31	6	24	6	449	63
New Zealand	12	14	84	13	2912	138	41.01	3141	92.70	5	17	3	249	63

 

8-11:

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team Australia  or England  or India  or New Zealand  or South Africa

Start of match date between 17 Apr 2018 and 17 Apr 2019

Batting position greater than or equal to 8

Grouped by team

Ordered by runs scored (descending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 5 of 5

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Overall figures

Team	Players	Mat	Inns	NO	Runs	HS	Ave	BF	SR	100	50	0	4s	6s
India	13	27	46	15	391	46	12.61	530	73.77	0	0	6	24	12
Australia	15	21	53	20	386	34	11.69	468	82.47	0	0	6	32	5
England	11	19	34	12	295	50	13.40	364	81.04	0	1	5	27	6
New Zealand	9	14	28	10	283	57	15.72	311	90.99	0	1	2	15	14
South Africa	14	21	27	10	226	60	13.29	361	62.60	0	1	2	23	3

 

 

/thread

 

 

 

 

 

[vvvslaxman]

Again misleading stats. India had guys like Bhuvaneswar, Ashwin, Jadeja down the order in odd matches. You are not going to have them in the world cup. Secondly about the "most of the time"  160 innings by top 7 46 innings by bottom 4.  That doesn't sound like most of the time.  Any stats that you pull will not reflect what i say because these 4 never played together even in a single match. You don't make these collective comparisons and convince yousrelf  Indian Tail = English Tail = NZ Tail = Australian Tail. INdian top order > Mot of the teams. With two at the top going through a rough patch, there might be top order collapses. India's best case scenario is top 3 batting (Esp. Rohit/Kohli batting till 40th overs atleast ).  Aging Dhoni, unreliable Jadhav, rookie Shankar, Pandya have to do the acceleration between themselves if top 3 didn't survive till 40th over. 

[zen]

31 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Again misleading stats. India had guys like Bhuvaneswar, Ashwin, Jadeja down the order in odd matches. You are not going to have them in the world cup. Secondly about the "most of the time"  160 innings by top 7 46 innings by bottom 4.  That doesn't sound like most of the time.  Any stats that you pull will not reflect what i say because these 4 never played together even in a single match. You don't make these collective comparisons and convince yousrelf  Indian Tail = English Tail = NZ Tail = Australian Tail. INdian top order > Mot of the teams. With two at the top going through a rough patch, there might be top order collapses. India's best case scenario is top 3 batting (Esp. Rohit/Kohli batting till 40th overs atleast ).  Aging Dhoni, unreliable Jadhav, rookie Shankar, Pandya have to do the acceleration between themselves if top 3 didn't survive till 40th over. 

Buddy, again an irrelevant point as has been mentioned -> a good batting track = more opportunities for the batsmen (also try to understand the data and its period properly) 

 

After changing various goal posts, now you have gone down to Ind team = poor. BD is poorer, however even it tries to compete with the resources it has. Tomorrow you will say, play 7 Rahanes + 4 bowlers as each Rahane will at least give 30-35 runs on a 300+ runs pitch so Ind gets around 260 instead of getting all out of 240-250 in trying to get 300+   .... Sorry, but that is not how you play cricket. It is more of a pointless exercise. On a 300+ pitch, good teams back themselves and play confidently to get above that total   .... the chosen players are expected to do the required job or make way for players who can do that job

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by zen

[zen]

.

Edited April 17, 2019 by zen

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Buddy, again an irrelevant point as has been mentioned -> a good batting track = more opportunities for the batsmen (also try to understand the data and its period properly) 

 

After changing various goal posts, now you have gone down to Ind team = poor. BD is poorer, however even it tries to compete with the resources it has. Tomorrow you will say, play 7 Rahanes + 4 bowlers as each Rahane will at least give 30-35 runs on a 300+ runs pitch so Ind gets around 260 instead of getting all out of 240-250 in trying to get 300+   .... Sorry, but that is not how you play cricket. It is more of a pointless exercise. On a 300+ pitch, good teams back themselves and play confidently to get above that total   .... the chosen players are expected to do the required job or make way for players who can do that job

 

Nobody is changing any goal post. I commented about two issues. Scoring in the last 10 overs and  Weak tail. If you seriously think importance of tailender batting is irrelevant then you are living in an alternate world. You somehow try to project Indian tail is as good as any other tail which everyone will laugh at. Even the mighty Australia needed the services of Andy Bichel not once but twice in 2003 world cup to bail them out. Someone like Sam Curran, Santner, Archer, Holder, Coulternile can all hit the long ball. It allows the middle order to start the acceleration early. There are many cascading benefits. Your theory probably fits in the 70s where tailenders will be genuine tailenders. You are talking about a perfect scenario. But in world cups collapse will happen. In Asia cup final Bhajji smoked Amir for a six to help India win. Same way Rajesh chauhan smoked a six to help India win their first match in Pakistan. In 1996 world cup. Kumble/Srinath helped Ajay Jadeja in the end overs big time. Your eutopian theory is not applicable even for world beaters. No team has had a near perfect world cup.

[raki05]

6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Last 2 years partnerships between 7th and 10th wicket

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=fow_score;partnership_wicketmin1=7;partnership_wicketval1=partnership_wicket;spanmax1=17+Apr+2019;spanmin1=17+Apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=fow;view=innings

 

Anytime we have a decent partnership down the order it was either with Jadeja or Bhuvaneswar. Neither of them are going to be in the playing XI.  It will be Chahal, Kuldeep, Shami, Bhumrah. 4 rank tailenders.

 

 

Chahal shouldn't be in playing xi... if he is in better form than kuldeep than he should make the cut and kuldeep should sit out. No way we should be playing kulcha in xi.

[ShoonyaSifar]

The team is all about top 3 + Bumrah + KulCha and Shami if he turns up motivated.

 

No one else is a match winner irrespective of who we pick from this WC 15.

[zen]

6 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Nobody is changing any goal post. I commented about two issues. Scoring in the last 10 overs and  Weak tail. If you seriously think importance of tailender batting is irrelevant then you are living in an alternate world. You somehow try to project Indian tail is as good as any other tail which everyone will laugh at. Even the mighty Australia needed the services of Andy Bichel not once but twice in 2003 world cup to bail them out. Someone like Sam Curran, Santner, Archer, Holder, Coulternile can all hit the long ball. It allows the middle order to start the acceleration early. There are many cascading benefits. Your theory probably fits in the 70s where tailenders will be genuine tailenders. You are talking about a perfect scenario. But in world cups collapse will happen. In Asia cup final Bhajji smoked Amir for a six to help India win. Same way Rajesh chauhan smoked a six to help India win their first match in Pakistan. In 1996 world cup. Kumble/Srinath helped Ajay Jadeja in the end overs big time. Your eutopian theory is not applicable even for world beaters. No team has had a near perfect world cup.

Already posted “recent” data of what happens more often than not. This is not perfect scenario. Already talked about this being sports so there is unpredictability associated with it. Already talked can’t plan for poor cricket. But as usual, you have resorted to strawman and the black and white thinking where either you can play fast or get out for e.g. 

 

Don’t post irrelevant stuff that people know and use strawman. Focus on what is being discussed. 8-11 are an issue for all major teams. It is nothing new or unique that merits everyone else to change their batting approach

 

It appears as if you expect the batsmen to be slow (as they play poor cricket) even on good batting surfaces so have started to build executes even before the first ball is bowled in the World Cup  

 

 

[Khota]

13 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Apart from Pandya who can do this job? This is where our main weakness is. We are the worst in the last 10 overs in recent times. We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this? Either top order has to stay till 50th over or lower order freaking has to learn to hit some sixes.

pandya is the least qualified to do that job. It is the job of a specialist and not a part timer.

[Ankit_sharma03]

14 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Apart from Pandya who can do this job? This is where our main weakness is. We are the worst in the last 10 overs in recent times. We could 290/6 in 45 overs we will still  struggle to cross 310. How to maximize this? Either top order has to stay till 50th over or lower order freaking has to learn to hit some sixes.

this is where number is like bridge between top 3 n bottom, if he is set he bats till end allowing 5,6,7 to go tonk tonk. Due to not having a good no.4 our top 3 has been even more conservative . Thats why shankar has to come good at 4....and he can tonk well in the end 

 

Jadhav isnt that bad, his problem comes when he has to come at 40/4 kind of situation . 

 

Dk isnt a bad option in last 10 overs but he doesnt give this team anything else even in batting apart from last 10 over cameos....

[vvvslaxman]

46 minutes ago, zen said:

Already posted “recent” data of what happens more often than not. This is not perfect scenario. Already talked about this being sports so there is unpredictability associated with it. Already talked can’t plan for poor cricket. But as usual, you have resorted to strawman and the black and white thinking where either you can play fast or get out for e.g. 

 

Don’t post irrelevant stuff that people know and use strawman. Focus on what is being discussed. 8-11 are an issue for all major teams. It is nothing new or unique that merits everyone else to change their batting approach

 

It appears as if you expect the batsmen to be slow (as they play poor cricket) even on good batting surfaces so have started to build executes even before the first ball is bowled in the World Cup  

 

 

In Tests it was conclusively proven how a weak tail hurt and strong tail help a team. 8-11 is not an issue for England, not an issue for Australia, not an issue for West Indies, not an issue for NZ. They have batsmen who can score 50. In the last 2 years out of 236 inings from our tail majority of the top score was registered by Bhuvi and sometimes Jaddu. Rest useless

 

 

Here is the list of all the no 8-11 batsman in the last 2 years from all countries minus Bhuvi matches.  Jadeja is not even in top 100 in this list. Yes if you have  completely set of useless batsmen in the back end your middle order will definitely slow down. Heck even Kohli will try to take it to the deep or throw his wicket away.

 

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?batting_positionmin1=8;batting_positionval1=batting_position;class=2;filter=advanced;orderby=batted_score;player_involve=5428

2;player_involve_type=none;spanmax1=17+Apr+2019;spanmin1=17+Apr+2017;spanval1=span;template=results;type=batting;view=innings

 

In the last years Lords one dayer, David WIlley came at 239/6. England ended up with 322/7.  Willey made 50 in 31 balls. How can you say England has a weak tail with Moeen/Rashid coming in at that place.  

[vvvslaxman]

51 minutes ago, Ankit_sharma03 said:

this is where number is like bridge between top 3 n bottom, if he is set he bats till end allowing 5,6,7 to go tonk tonk. Due to not having a good no.4 our top 3 has been even more conservative . Thats why shankar has to come good at 4....and he can tonk well in the end 

 

Jadhav isnt that bad, his problem comes when he has to come at 40/4 kind of situation . 

 

Dk isnt a bad option in last 10 overs but he doesnt give this team anything else even in batting apart from last 10 over cameos....

Yes weak middle order makes the extremely weak middle order even worse than it is.

[zen]

 

 

 

2

3 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

In Tests it was conclusively proven how a weak tail hurt and strong tail help a team. 8-11 is not an issue for England, not an issue for Australia, not an issue for West Indies, not an issue for NZ. They have batsmen who can score 50. In the last 2 years out of 236 inings from our tail majority of the top score was registered by Bhuvi and sometimes Jaddu. Rest useless 

I guess, we are playing tests in the WC .... Again strawman and irrelevant points 

[vvvslaxman]

You are saying Indian tail is as good as tail from any other team. I am the one making irrelevant strawman posts lol  Nice try.