Is Novak Djokovic a poor sport?

[Real McCoy]

After the 4th round loss to Stan Wawrinka where Novak retired after 2 sets and a break down, he was booed by the New York crowd for retiring midway. Stan also couldn't celebrate the win because of this injury. Novak has done this before against Andy Roddick and others and was called out by Roddick after that loss. He didn't retire in the last match. He didn't retire when he was a break up in the second set. He didn't do it after his first service game in the third set where he won the game without losing a point. But after losing his second service game, he retired. I don't think the injury was that serious not to finish the set. I doubt this gives any credibility to his injury claims. I mark this as poor sportsmanship to Stan and the crowd by denying Stan an outright victory.

[I6MTW]

Yes Exactly. I was going to post about this. Novak had an injury problem fine. But he was able to play thru 3 rounds before this. He was also playing upto a competitive level in the first two sets in this match. He didnt retire after he lost the first set, or second. He retired only after he was broken in the third set. He knew he couldn't win this match. So he decided to end the match then and there, using the injury excuse. The injury is not serious enough to stop midway. He could still move and play. Especially for another 10 mins or so. He denied Wawrinka the straightforward win. Now it seems like Wawrinka's win is asterisked because Djokovic retired. He always does this. He never carries on, handing an opponent a clean win even when he is injured. It happened in Wimbledon 17 against Berdych as well. 

 

You never see Federer doing this. Even when he is losing or not feeling well/injured he carries on, making sure the match is completed. He never had a single retirement in his entire career till now. And he has only 4 walkovers in his career . One of them this year in Rome due to poor scheduling the organisers.

 

Even Nadal when he is injured , has retired against opponents when in a losing position. They simply don't respect the opponents or the match to continue.

[Real McCoy]

16 minutes ago, I6MTW said:

Yes Exactly. I was going to post about this. Novak had an injury problem fine. But he was able to play thru 3 rounds before this. He was also playing upto a competitive level in the first two sets in this match. He didnt retire after he lost the first set, or second. He retired only after he was broken in the third set. He knew he couldn't win this match. So he decided to end the match then and there, using the injury excuse. The injury is not serious enough to stop midway. He could still move and play. Especially for another 10 mins or so. He denied Wawrinka the straightforward win. Now it seems like Wawrinka's win is asterisked because Djokovic retired. He always does this. He never carries on, handing an opponent a clean win even when he is injured. It happened in Wimbledon 17 against Berdych as well. 

 

You never see Federer doing this. Even when he is losing or not feeling well/injured he carries on, making sure the match is completed. He never had a single retirement in his entire career till now. And he has only 4 walkovers in his career . One of them this year in Rome due to poor scheduling the organisers.

 

Even Nadal when he is injured , has retired against opponents when in a losing position. They simply don't respect the opponents or the match to continue.

The thing with Nadal is he mentions injury as an excuse when the other guy won. He did that as recent as this year's Australian Open loss to Novak. Maybe he uses the retirement option slightly less than Djoko but both of them use the medical timeout to ruin the momentum of the opponent. Nadal tried to do something with the feet in the Wimby SF. The crowd got restless and he in this occasion didn't ask for the trainer. Djoker did it to Stan before in a match where Stan was livid when he asked for the trainer. I never recollect Federer retire during a match or ask for a medical timeout or not giving his opponent's due credit

Edited September 2, 2019 by Real McCoy

[Gollum]

Nadal is the poorest sport, Nole is better than him and worse than Fed, Murray is an angel . Nole obviously is never going to be as loved as the other 3. Firstly he is an Eastern European in a sport which is western-centric, secondly he is desperate for love and attention, he feels he isn't getting his due and hence the theatrics and fakery...this retirement was basically a fukc you to the NYC crowd who have been heckling him a lot, and past history. Unlike others he often has to face a hostile crowd, that may bring certain elements in his character to the forefront, can't maintain composure all the time (more so for a man who often puts up an act to be loved but doesn't get desired results...psychology) especially in an intense individual sport like tennis.  I have some sympathy for Nole, battling so many odds all the time must be tough.

 

As far as I know Fed never had to face a hostile crowd except the 2012 London Olympics gold medal match (wasn't hostile but pro-Murray and loud), and we saw how he imploded....maybe before Peter Carter's death (he was ill-mannered  brat those days) and in some Davis Cup away matches. Fed can be an asshole sometimes, with his temper tantrums and sulking post match...he even took a fake MTO in AO 2017 final. Also think there is a PR angle for RF like Kohli , he has to maintain a certain image no matter what....classy, suave, unblemished gentleman sitting beside Anna Wintour in first row, Milan Fashion Week. 

 

All these guys have their flaws and maybe you need a certain element of undesirable traits to get the competitive juices flowing. Look at nice guy Goffin...that is not who you want to be. Even Amritraj would have had a better career (maybe GS winner/finalist) if he weren't such a naive, docile guy. Tennis is still a gentleman's sport with excessive fake politeness and manners...I don't mind if some of the stars bend the rules and etiquette a bit, not like Nastase, Connors, McEnroe, Kyrgios ofc (never go full retard) but not the other end of the spectrum either. 

Edited September 2, 2019 by Gollum

[I6MTW]

7 hours ago, Gollum said:

Nadal is the poorest sport, Nole is better than him and worse than Fed, Murray is an angel . Nole obviously is never going to be as loved as the other 3. Firstly he is an Eastern European in a sport which is western-centric, secondly he is desperate for love and attention, he feels he isn't getting his due and hence the theatrics and fakery...this retirement was basically a fukc you to the NYC crowd who have been heckling him a lot, and past history. Unlike others he often has to face a hostile crowd, that may bring certain elements in his character to the forefront, can't maintain composure all the time (more so for a man who often puts up an act to be loved but doesn't get desired results...psychology) especially in an intense individual sport like tennis.  I have some sympathy for Nole, battling so many odds all the time must be tough.

 

As far as I know Fed never had to face a hostile crowd except the 2012 London Olympics gold medal match (wasn't hostile but pro-Murray and loud), and we saw how he imploded....maybe before Peter Carter's death (he was ill-mannered  brat those days) and in some Davis Cup away matches. Fed can be an asshole sometimes, with his temper tantrums and sulking post match...he even took a fake MTO in AO 2017 final. Also think there is a PR angle for RF like Kohli , he has to maintain a certain image no matter what....classy, suave, unblemished gentleman sitting beside Anna Wintour in first row, Milan Fashion Week. 

 

All these guys have their flaws and maybe you need a certain element of undesirable traits to get the competitive juices flowing. Look at nice guy Goffin...that is not who you want to be. Even Amritraj would have had a better career (maybe GS winner/finalist) if he weren't such a naive, docile guy. Tennis is still a gentleman's sport with excessive fake politeness and manners...I don't mind if some of the stars bend the rules and etiquette a bit, not like Nastase, Connors, McEnroe, Kyrgios ofc (never go full retard) but not the other end of the spectrum either. 

Well pre 2010-Djoker was known for his excessive retirements, he used to retire all the time, opponents used to complain. Roderick once called him out. Retiring when in a losing(even if injured) position indicates that you don't respect the opponent and only quitting when things don't go your way. 

 

US crowd is poor I know, but he has retired mid match in many other places, so many times. Eg.Wimbledon 17. He knew he was in no form to win the match, so he retired during the second set. 

 

Fed I agree , maintains a diplomatic image on the outside, that's part of PR. But, still he hasn't done anything on the levels of Nadal and Djokovic since early 00s. 

 

Murray is probably the best out of the big 4 in that regards.

 

Tennis needs some interesting personalities I agree, but not theatrics like Kyrgios constant drama, Medvedev's WWE style crowd exchange, or Tsitsipas altercation with the Umpires, or bratty Zverev, etc. Which is what the sport will be after the big 3 retires. The ATP will rely on these theatrics to keep the sport going. It'll be like WWE minus the scripting part. 

Edited September 3, 2019 by I6MTW

[Real McCoy]

20 hours ago, Gollum said:

Nadal is the poorest sport, Nole is better than him and worse than Fed, Murray is an angel . Nole obviously is never going to be as loved as the other 3. Firstly he is an Eastern European in a sport which is western-centric, secondly he is desperate for love and attention, he feels he isn't getting his due and hence the theatrics and fakery...this retirement was basically a fukc you to the NYC crowd who have been heckling him a lot, and past history. Unlike others he often has to face a hostile crowd, that may bring certain elements in his character to the forefront, can't maintain composure all the time (more so for a man who often puts up an act to be loved but doesn't get desired results...psychology) especially in an intense individual sport like tennis.  I have some sympathy for Nole, battling so many odds all the time must be tough.

 

As far as I know Fed never had to face a hostile crowd except the 2012 London Olympics gold medal match (wasn't hostile but pro-Murray and loud), and we saw how he imploded....maybe before Peter Carter's death (he was ill-mannered  brat those days) and in some Davis Cup away matches. Fed can be an asshole sometimes, with his temper tantrums and sulking post match...he even took a fake MTO in AO 2017 final. Also think there is a PR angle for RF like Kohli , he has to maintain a certain image no matter what....classy, suave, unblemished gentleman sitting beside Anna Wintour in first row, Milan Fashion Week. 

 

All these guys have their flaws and maybe you need a certain element of undesirable traits to get the competitive juices flowing. Look at nice guy Goffin...that is not who you want to be. Even Amritraj would have had a better career (maybe GS winner/finalist) if he weren't such a naive, docile guy. Tennis is still a gentleman's sport with excessive fake politeness and manners...I don't mind if some of the stars bend the rules and etiquette a bit, not like Nastase, Connors, McEnroe, Kyrgios ofc (never go full retard) but not the other end of the spectrum either. 

Nadal is poor when he loses in the finals where he has to give the finalist speech. He was cringeworthy in this years AO against Djoker. He comes across as decent in the press conferences after the game. That's secondary to retiring when the opponent is about to win. That not only disrespects the opponent but also the crowd. The NYC crowd even though they lack some class paid good chunk of money to watch this match which was dubbed to be a great one which it turned out to be until the second set was done. Nadal retires too but not to the same extent like Djoko and Nadal misses a lot of matches after retiring in a match which gives some crediblity to his injury claims. I won't be surprised if Nole is back on court soon. That is what makes his retirement dubious. Also note that Federer has rarely if ever retired. If he feels he is not upto it, he will miss the entire tournament like he did in Montreal this year and the French Open in previous years.

 

I don't believe that eastern European angle. Basically he has a chip on his shoulder that everyone is out to get him whereas most people don't care. Most people in America don't know where Spain, Switzerland and Serbia are located but have an idea that they are countries in Europe. To give you some perspective, how many Indians know about countries such as Ivory Coast or Luxemburg. Most Western Europeans and North Americans don't like whining when things don't go their way. This is what Novak did and still does. This whining, quitting when losing, and other antics to gain support annoys spectators. Who here likes his celebrations to the crowd after each win? The one with pouring his heart to the crowd in all four directions How about just wave and do a fist pump like normal people you jackass. Also his grass eating in Wimbledon. Was he trying to say he is the "GOAT". Can't believe his level of narcissism. The greatest tennis player is a fan based one not self appointed. There are several players apart from the big 3 that also qualify for this.

 

Most noletards are They are mostly serbians and any criticism of nole is considered as hate and western hegemony and will abuse you in youtube even if you are from Asia. They are like communists who cut down on different opinions. No wonder they were ruled by communists for so long. They can't handle that Fed's runner up press conference in Wimbledon had more views than Nole's winner press conference in youtube. So they bombard the Fed video with "Nole is goat"

 

I will point out that I didn't like Fed at the start of his career. I thought of him to be an arrogant douchebag with his racket throwing and didn't like him until 2005 when he had almost acquired 6-7 grand slams. Also the commentators were guffawing over his achievements calling him the Emperor of tennis or something like that didn't help. What made me his fan was the sportsmanship he showed towards his biggest nemesis Rafa and his old interviews where he was the normal guy trying to get into tennis.

 

I'm not saying Federer is perfect. He had issues with media in the start of the career but his PR has improved his handling of the media. He tries to be diplomatic and neutral when some issues pop up. He called out Djokovic for retiring against Roddick in AO 2009. He is more PC now thanks to PR efforts. But I don't think his niceness to everyone involved is unnatural. He even thanks ballboys and girls when they fetch him his bottle from the fridge. You can't teach that through PR. Most middle class western Europeans and North Americans are polite and this is inculcated by their parents. Fed and Nadal had good parenting which ultimately helped him in their adult lives. This is what Rafa's uncle Tony Nadal called "educacion" when he said Kyrgios doesn't have it. Its not meant to insult about his education. It meant he needs to understand basic manners. Compare that to Nole's parents who were yelling during play in one of the matches when Fed finally told them to shut up. Fed and Nadal improved the quality of tennis and also promoted sportsmanship. Nole seems a little fake but can play good tennis. He is not a good sport when he is losing. Anyone can see through is "joker" mentality. He is very serious. Whereas Fed and Nadal's humor is quite natural.

 

[Pratik77]

I even warm to Nadal as Feder fan...but not to joker...he comes across as wannabe

[Gollum]

On 9/4/2019 at 12:00 AM, Real McCoy said:

The NYC crowd even though they lack some class.

Some class? I say you are being generous, NYC crowd is disgusting beyond measure. 

Quote

If he feels he is not upto it, he will miss the entire tournament like he did in Montreal this year and the French Open in previous years.

Fed missing French Open and making those lame knee excuses was poor sportsmanship. We all know why he did it, come on 

Quote

I don't believe that eastern European angle. Basically he has a chip on his shoulder that everyone is out to get him whereas most people don't care.

Of course there is an E European angle. Do you know who was the most hated tennis player 30 years back? Ivan Lendl, a perfectly fine gentleman. Navratilova before switch to USA? Monica Seles? See a common trend? I can extrapolate this to other sports if you want. Fed and Nadal are lucky because of where they were born, can't dispute that. 

Quote

Who here likes his celebrations to the crowd after each win? The one with pouring his heart to the crowd in all four directions How about just wave and do a fist pump like normal people you jackass. Also his grass eating in Wimbledon. Was he trying to say he is the "GOAT". Can't believe his level of narcissism. 

His life, his rules. Athletes can celebrate as they wish, you get ridiculous celebrations in football as well. It is their way of connecting with fans. Him eating grass was to reinforce his stereotype as a joker. Where do you see narcissism? You see the WIndian cricketers have weird celebrations, would you say the same? 

Quote

Most noletards are They are mostly serbians and any criticism of nole is considered as hate and western hegemony and will abuse you in youtube even if you are from Asia. They are like communists who cut down on different opinions. No wonder they were ruled by communists for so long. They can't handle that Fed's runner up press conference in Wimbledon had more views than Nole's winner press conference in youtube. So they bombard the Fed video with "Nole is goat"

How is it different from Indian fans behaving like jackasses on the net? Maybe those people don't have enough heroes to take pride in and hence get defensive/abusive/passive-aggressive when it comes to Nole. 

Fed fans are no better, even the educated, rich ones who attend matches in stadiums. They celebrate errors of his opponent, boo, heckle, distract etc. Worst behavior, Fed should publicly condemn his rabid fanbase if he wants to be seen as a good sport. 

And good job generalizing people, would you like it if others generalize Indians based on YT comments? 

Quote

I will point out that I didn't like Fed at the start of his career. I thought of him to be an arrogant douchebag with his racket throwing and didn't like him until 2005 when he had almost acquired 6-7 grand slams. Also the commentators were guffawing over his achievements calling him the Emperor of tennis or something like that didn't help. What made me his fan was the sportsmanship he showed towards his biggest nemesis Rafa and his old interviews where he was the normal guy trying to get into tennis.

He has also been arrogant/bitter towards rivals, don't underestimate the role of PR behind his change in behavior. His sponsors want to fit him in a certain image, and by complying he has raked in the $$$, fame and goodwill. 

Quote

Most middle class western Europeans and North Americans are polite and this is inculcated by their parents. Fed and Nadal had good parenting which ultimately helped him in their adult lives. This is what Rafa's uncle Tony Nadal called "educacion" when he said Kyrgios doesn't have it. Its not meant to insult about his education. It meant he needs to understand basic manners.

Sorry Nadal isn't well mannered on court. Similarly there are many middle class Western European and American players who behave badly...you want me to name them. Don't generalize.

Quote

Compare that to Nole's parents who were yelling during play in one of the matches when Fed finally told them to shut up.

What about Mirka? Fed-Kyrgios Miami 2017? Or how she heckled and called Stan a crybaby in the SF of one of the WTFs? 

Quote

Anyone can see through is "joker" mentality. He is very serious. Whereas Fed and Nadal's humor is quite natural.

To each his own. For me Nadal is the most fake top player. Fed>Nole>>>>>Nadal

Edited September 5, 2019 by Gollum

[Gollum]

Is there anyone more self-serving than Nadal? All his suggestions, complaints, remarks are to promote his own self interest, acts as if he is doing it for the good of the game but all for selfish reasons. 

- 2 year ranking system

- less HC, more clay to protect body LOL

- abolishing 2nd serve

- further reducing the court speed

- ATP finals rotation on different surfaces

- Wimbledon seeding system

- No serve clock 

- threatening umpires 

- grunting is natural, no?

This SOB and Tio Toni are the evil duo in the world of tennis. As long as they are there, no questioning sportsmanship of others.

Edited September 5, 2019 by Gollum

[I6MTW]

48 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Is there anyone more self-serving than Nadal? All his suggestions, complaints, remarks are to promote his own self interest, acts as if he is doing it for the good of the game but all for selfish reasons. 

- 2 year ranking system

- less HC, more clay to protect body LOL

- abolishing 2nd serve

- further reducing the court speed

- ATP finals rotation on different surfaces

- Wimbledon seeding system

- No serve clock 

- threatening umpires 

- grunting is natural, no?

This SOB and Tio Toni are the evil duo in the world of tennis. As long as they are there, no questioning sportsmanship of others.

I agree Nadal is selfish and has the fake humble personality. He may/may not be a nice guy, but he is definitely bad for the sport. 

 

But, so is Novak, remember what he did in this year's FO? He screwed Thiem up. I mean it went to 5 sets because of the disruptions in momentum allowing Novak to regain his focus. Thiem was not even given a days rest for the final. It cost him the match against Nadal. In the same sf, Nadal and Federer played without a single complaint during the match. Federer was probably affected more than Nadal in the match, looking back retrospectively. Novak is also fake and seems desperate to be liked, taking Kyrgios words into account, they don't seem that far from the truth.

[Real McCoy]

3 hours ago, Gollum said:

Some class? I say you are being generous, NYC crowd is disgusting beyond measure. 

Fed missing French Open and making those lame knee excuses was poor sportsmanship. We all know why he did it, come on 

Of course there is an E European angle. Do you know who was the most hated tennis player 30 years back? Ivan Lendl, a perfectly fine gentleman. Navratilova before switch to USA? Monica Seles? See a common trend? I can extrapolate this to other sports if you want. Fed and Nadal are lucky because of where they were born, can't dispute that. 

I have no problems with NY crowd. I have been to New York but not to the USO. Life in NY is fast and expensive. I heard they pay around $500 or so for one game. If they are being denied an opportunity to watch a full match because of Djoker's quitting, of course they will be pissed. The match lasted a little over 2 sets. Players make money off of the fans and have to cope up with the boos. As long as it doesn't get physical or people throwing trash at the players, I'm fine with that.

Fed not playing those French opens was not poor sportsmanship. There is a clear lack of understanding on your part about what constitutes sportsmanship. He picks and chooses tournaments because of his age. Since he has never had that much success in the French Open, he chose to play in tournaments that increase his chances of success. Also he makes his decisions in advance of those tournaments. Nole deceived the paying public in course of a match when he thought he would lose. Not the same thing

Still not convinced of the East European theory that too in today's modern age. You think Lendl didn't have his bad moments. He body served someone and got booed. What noletards aka serbian fans are claiming is that the Wimbledon crowd booed and was hostile Read the spectator code of conduct in the wimbledon website. They keep behavior in check and throw people out for unruly behavior and are not allowed in the premises in the future forever. Anyway Wimbledon is watched by the posh section of the English crowd and they are the least likely of all people to boo. What really happened is they were rooting for Federer all the way and Nole was being a petulant child that he didn't get the same recognition being the no.1. He hit the umpire's chair with his racket multiple times. The crowd still didn't boo and there was a hush and some mumbles.

His life, his rules. Athletes can celebrate as they wish, you get ridiculous celebrations in football as well. It is their way of connecting with fans. Him eating grass was to reinforce his stereotype as a joker. Where do you see narcissism? You see the WIndian cricketers have weird celebrations, would you say the same? 

How is it different from Indian fans behaving like jackasses on the net? Maybe those people don't have enough heroes to take pride in and hence get defensive/abusive/passive-aggressive when it comes to Nole. 

Nole can celebrate however he wants but don't expect me and other tennis fans to like it. I think its a calculated antic to gain attention not a natural reaction. I also don't like Federer crying after every GS win like it was the first time that happened. But it appears natural because men don't want to be caught crying. Nole did the grass eating to make a point that he is the real goat. If that is not narcissism, I don't know what is.

Don't like the over the top celebrations a la David Warner when he reaches 100. Don't like the Indians and especially Virat acting like jackasses. What's your point

Serbians can take pride in Nikola Tesla, the greatest inventor in recent times. I consider him greater than Einstein. Einstein himself considers Tesla as greater than him. They don't have to be defenisve and post abusive messages in other players youtube pages. English haven't developed a player in the same class as the big 3 but they don't act like this.

Fed fans are no better, even the educated, rich ones who attend matches in stadiums. They celebrate errors of his opponent, boo, heckle, distract etc. Worst behavior, Fed should publicly condemn his rabid fanbase if he wants to be seen as a good sport. 

Really. Present me some evidence. Fed cannot control the crowd if it goes rabid. He is just a player not a spokesman for the UN.

And good job generalizing people, would you like it if others generalize Indians based on YT comments? 

People generalize Indians and other people so much. You need to get outside and develop a tough skin. The only people who don't generalize other people are in major cities in NA and Western Europe. Go to Serbia if you want and see their stereotypes about Indians. They have their own stereotypes about Gypsies and possibly rightly so. Also lets not forget how Indians stereotype other Indians. You have your own stereotypes about muslims don't you calling them peacefuls in a sarcastic sense. What if a muslim gets offended. What if he doesn't fit your stereotype. So step down from your high horse and accept generalizing is how people work.

He has also been arrogant/bitter towards rivals, don't underestimate the role of PR behind his change in behavior. His sponsors want to fit him in a certain image, and by complying he has raked in the $$$, fame and goodwill.

Sorry Nadal isn't well mannered on court. Similarly there are many middle class Western European and American players who behave badly...you want me to name them. Don't generalize.

Again evidence please. In any case those WE and NA players who acted bad were booed too.

What about Mirka? Fed-Kyrgios Miami 2017? Or how she heckled and called Stan a crybaby in the SF of one of the WTFs? 

Mirka was born in Eastern Europe. More evidence of my theory

To each his own. For me Nadal is the most fake top player. Fed>Nole>>>>>Nadal

My response is above in bold

 

 

[Real McCoy]

2 hours ago, I6MTW said:

I agree Nadal is selfish and has the fake humble personality. He may/may not be a nice guy, but he is definitely bad for the sport. 

 

But, so is Novak, remember what he did in this year's FO? He screwed Thiem up. I mean it went to 5 sets because of the disruptions in momentum allowing Novak to regain his focus. Thiem was not even given a days rest for the final. It cost him the match against Nadal. In the same sf, Nadal and Federer played without a single complaint during the match. Federer was probably affected more than Nadal in the match, looking back retrospectively. Novak is also fake and seems desperate to be liked, taking Kyrgios words into account, they don't seem that far from the truth.

Agree with the Thiem game. Thiem would have won the game in four sets. Due to nole's disruption, Thiem lost momentum and it went into the decider. Even after losing the game, Nole greeted Thiem with a patronizing pat on the head. He did the same with Wawrinka but not much. Stan is older than Nole. Again a sign of disrepect. You don't pat the winner on the head even if he is younger than you. That's not professional behavior. Like you said Federer especially and Nadal played without complaining. Also Thiem played the next day against Nadal without complaining. Nole would have asked for an extension to Monday

[Gollum]

@Real McCoy it seems you dislike Nole just like me with Nadal, all good cos we both are Fed fans first and foremost 

 

1. I am basing USO crowd's lack of class not on recent events. They have a history, check out the 2015 USO F for instance. They are known for heckling players and being loud/obnoxious. 

2.  Fed missing clay seasons and making stories about its effect on his knee constitute as poor ethics. That too being a legend of the sport, clay great, European crowd (esp Paris) favorite and top 4 player his absence from that part of the season was a betrayal to not just the fans but also the organizers of RG, Monte Carlo, Madrid, Rome etc. The success of any tournament depends on participation of the best players, here he was skipping M1000s and RG....prestigious events !!!! He wasn't injured, he skipped that part to prepare for SW19 and to maintain the mental hold over Nadal. He returned to RG this year to improve his baseline game and push his seeding up for the grass major. I get what you are saying, doesn't strictly come under sportsmanship but is in bad taste. Sport is bigger than any individual no matter how great. Nadal does the same, to a much greater extent to prepare for clay season...I have no qualms in calling out his bluff either.

3. Lendl was a thorough gentleman and yet hated. Seles before stabbing incident, Navratilova in her early years. Post cold war era they aren't hated per se but not liked either. 

4. Brits are hypocrites, their posh fans in upper class sports (tennis as well as cricket) aren't the saints they claim. They were cheering Nole's errors and making noises while play was on. They have done this before in favor of Fed and local players.

5. Nobody knows why he eats grass for certain, maybe some inside joke with his team or clownery. I don't buy your narcissism explanation. 

6. Dude we are talking about sportsmen, average Joes don't care about Teslas, Einsteins and Ramunujans. Besides YT comments section is the dustbin of internet, don't give much weightage to that nonsense. You do know how our boys behave there right? 

7. You want evidence about Fedtards heckling opponent players during matches, seriously? That is so common, and not just his matches against Kyrgios (Miami 17). 2015 USO F must rank as the worst of all time. Even Mirka joins in often. Against Zverev, last year's ATP finals SF. 

8. English fans if not abusive are incredibly rude, patronizing, sarcastic, *ing whiners.....I find them horrible.

9.  If Fed wants to be seen as morally superior about time he asks his supporters to behave, why should his opponents apologize to the crowd for beating the Swiss? See man I am a Fed supporter, but just like Sachinstas annoy me no end the Fedtards piss me off. 

10. You have high opinion about NA/W. Europe...fine. Maybe you have had good experience there.

11. 2011 USO SF PC, his interviews post SW19 finals in 2009 (Roddick) and 2012 (Murray), his digs at Rafa in 2000s, bitterness towards Nole when a reporter asked him if the latter was in GOAT race etc are ample evidence that he isn't as cool and humble like his PR wants to show the world.

12. You do agree that many W-European and American players are bad mannered on court, right? And many Russians and E-Europeans are all class. So there goes this theory

Quote

Most middle class western Europeans and North Americans are polite and this is inculcated by their parents. Fed and Nadal had good parenting which ultimately helped him in their adult lives. This is what Rafa's uncle Tony Nadal called "educacion" when he said Kyrgios doesn't have it. Its not meant to insult about his education. It meant he needs to understand basic manners.

13. Didn't know about Mirka's place of birth, anyway it seems she emigrated to Switzerland when she was 2. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Gollum

[Gollum]

@Real McCoy chill, just a time pass topic. No digs at you in my posts (that generalizing part I feel that we should avoid YT comments to preserve sanity), respectfully disagree with some of your points. To me Nadal is a greater evil, a very poor sport but somehow is never called out. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Gollum

[Real McCoy]

4 hours ago, Gollum said:

@Real McCoy it seems you dislike Nole just like me with Nadal, all good cos we both are Fed fans 

Yes, if Fed doesn't end up with most slams, I hope Rafa gets it. Both go for the winners rather than play defensively. Their tennis is attractive unlike nole's. If Novak gets it as it looks like it, it will be the end of tennis. Novak played Agut in the Wimby SF and played a 40+ rally with both not moving an inch. Even the crowd got FEDup (pun intended ) but still didn't boo. I could agree Agut being apprehensive about going for the winner but Novak is no.1. He had to go for it.

1. I am basing USO crowd's lack of class not on recent events. They have a history, check out the 2015 USO F for instance. They are known for heckling players and being loud/obnoxious. 

This is old news. NY has always been this way. But they did pay a huge amount of money to watch the game. Players have to bear it. Novak certainly has been around the circuit long enough to understand how the NY crowd is. For the record he did say that he can understand the crowd disappointment in the press conference. I don't think he really means it but maybe better PR as you said.

2.  Fed missing clay seasons and making stories about its effect on his knee constitute as poor ethics. That too being a legend of the sport, clay great, European crowd (esp Paris) favorite and top 4 player his absence from that part of the season was a betrayal to not just the fans but also the organizers of RG, Monte Carlo, Madrid, Rome etc. The success of any tournament depends on participation of the best players, here he was skipping M1000s and RG....prestigious events !!!! He wasn't injured, he skipped that part to prepare for SW19 and to maintain the mental hold over Nadal. He returned to RG this year to improve his baseline game and push his seeding up for the grass major. I get what you are saying, doesn't strictly come under sportsmanship but is in bad taste. Sport is bigger than any individual no matter how great. Nadal does the same, to a much greater extent to prepare for clay season...I have no qualms in calling out his bluff either.

Sampras rarely played in RG. That was the norm in the 90s. Anyone who excels in grass, will have a tough time in clay and vice versa. Fed being a similar type of player, felt it better to concentrate on grass and hard courts as he got older. But unlike Sampras, Fed played a lot in clay when he was in his prime. That's why Rafa has a great record against him. Most of their early meetings came in clay. This was not just RG, but also the other clay courts you mentioned. I don't think its a betrayal when a 30+ Fed wants to choose which court he plays in. For you to use the word betrayal and bad taste doesn't apply here if you watched tennis in the 90s. Players used to retire when they hit 30

3. Lendl was a thorough gentleman and yet hated. Seles before stabbing incident, Navratilova in her early years. Post cold war era they aren't hated per se but not liked either. 

You can't force people to like these players. I don't think that Lendl was what you claim to be. He was a competitive tennis player. Maybe a nice guy outside the court. But gentleman? How can you say so. This is where I need proof. I don't think you have watched him live. I certainly haven't. He hit opponents bodies more often. Grunting was considered abhorrent in the 90s. I think you and I agree on that part about Nadal's game now. Seles' grunts were horrible even by today's standards. Also people watched ladies tennis for the wrong reasons and still do I guess. Seles wasn't attractive to the male audience like Sabatini, Pierce and Graf.

4. Brits are hypocrites, their posh fans in upper class sports (tennis as well as cricket) aren't the saints they claim. They were cheering Nole's errors and making noises while play was on. They have done this before in favor of Fed and local players.

They maybe biased but they don't boo players. Those noletards are crazy if they think that was booing

5. Nobody knows why he eats grass for certain, maybe some inside joke with his team or clownery. I don't buy your narcissism explanation. 

Let's agree to disagree on that one.

6. Dude we are talking about sportsmen, average Joes don't care about Teslas, Einsteins and Ramunujans. Besides YT comments section is the dustbin of internet, don't give much weightage to that nonsense. You do know how our boys behave there right? 

What grinds my gears are they claim fedtards are way worse than noletards. I have seen the exact opposite. Fedtards don't go to Nole videos and claim Fed is the goat. Noletards always say Nole is goat on every Fed or Rafa videos. They lack class themselves yet accuse NY crowd as such. I was watching runner up press conference where they were doing this. Tells you how famous Fed is that the runner up press conference has more hits than Novak's conference. Noletards butthurt must have increased.

7. You want evidence about Fedtards heckling opponent players during matches, seriously? That is so common, and not just his matches against Kyrgios (Miami 17). 2015 USO F must rank as the worst of all time. Even Mirka joins in often. Against Zverev, last year's ATP finals SF. 

I haven't watched every Fed match that's why I asked for evidence. If you don't have it, let it go.

8. English fans if not abusive are incredibly rude, patronizing, sarcastic, *ing whiners.....I find them horrible.

I don't find them rude but agree with the rest of it.

9.  If Fed wants to be seen as morally superior about time he asks his supporters to behave, why should his opponents apologize to the crowd for beating the Swiss? See man I am a Fed supporter, but just like Sachinstas annoy me no end the Fedtards piss me off. 

Nobody wants him to be morally superior. He is not a religious figure unlike Sachin . Nobody can force others to act a certain way. Like I said he is only a tennis player.

10. You have high opinion about NA/W. Europe...fine. Maybe you have had good experience there.

Yes. I lived in America for close to 10 years. They have treated me far better than Indians have treated me. Go figure that one. No wonder most bright minds go abroad. Where do they go to. Serbia? No. They go to NA and western Europe

11. 2011 USO SF PC, his interviews post SW19 finals in 2009 (Roddick) and 2012 (Murray), his digs at Rafa in 2000s, bitterness towards Nole when a reporter asked him if the latter was in GOAT race etc are ample evidence that he isn't as cool and humble like his PR wants to show the world.

I think we are both sure he does PR. I think he is really a nice guy while you seem to think his entire nice guy persona is fake. Your idea of cool and humble is become Gandhi like. My idea is being competitive on the court and nice off the court.

12. You do agree that many W-European and American players are bad mannered on court, right? And many Russians and E-Europeans are all class. So there goes this theory

On court yes. But they don't quit just because they are losing which was my point. Also they don't carry a chip on their shoulder just because the crowd booed them for their behavior many moons ago or doesn't give them the same respect. You can command respect not demand it.

13. Didn't know about Mirka's place of birth, anyway it seems she emigrated to Switzerland when she was 2. 

Yea but her mum and dad didn't change once they arrived in Switzerland right

 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Real McCoy

[Real McCoy]

4 hours ago, Gollum said:

@Real McCoy chill, just a time pass topic

Agreed. Its a slow week. More time on

[Gollum]

Yes, if Fed doesn't end up with most slams, I hope Rafa gets it. Both go for the winners rather than play defensively. 

Nole generally has more winners than Rafa. Fed is on a different level, we might never see another one like him the way courts are slowing down. Last of that era which played first strike tennis, though in Fed's case it was the overlap between 2 eras with polar opposite playing conditions. Btw Nole was very aggressive in his younger days, before 2011...check out his matches then, he would match even Fed as far as attacking tennis was concerned but lose more often than win. 

 

This is old news. NY has always been this way. But they did pay a huge amount of money to watch the game. Players have to bear it.

 

Some players have to bear it more than others. As I said 2015 F where they were making noises when the ball was in Nole's half to throw him off guard. IMO AO crowd is the best behaved.

 

Sampras rarely played in RG. That was the norm in the 90s. Anyone who excels in grass, will have a tough time in clay and vice versa. Fed being a similar type of player, felt it better to concentrate on grass and hard courts as he got older. But unlike Sampras, Fed played a lot in clay when he was in his prime. That's why Rafa has a great record against him. Most of their early meetings came in clay. This was not just RG, but also the other clay courts you mentioned. I don't think its a betrayal when a 30+ Fed wants to choose which court he plays in. For you to use the word betrayal and bad taste doesn't apply here if you watched tennis in the 90s. Players used to retire when they hit 30

 

Can not compare 90s era with post 2002. Court speed is now homogenized making transition between surfaces way easier, IMO only Agassi's career GS is legit. What you said does not hold true today, and Fed's game is vastly different from Sampras' (more all round, better defence, inferior serve and net game....), players are shaped by their environment, in this case ultra slow conditions. Who plays tennis like this these days? 

 

I haven't watched every Fed match that's why I asked for evidence. If you don't have it, let it go.

I gave the evidence, recent matches:

Nole USO 15

Kyrgios Miami 17

Zverep ATP Finals 18

 

@Real McCoy I doubt we can change each other's outlook here, so let us chill .

 

I don't like Nole that much tbh, only liked his game before 2011 but then his playing style became very monotonous. But Nadal has to be stopped and hence I prefer the lesser evil. Always a Fed fan, If his record has to be broken I would prefer someone with a balanced record than a one court specialist who often got lucky elsewhere. And I also happen to hate Nadal since early days when he would moonball Fed's BH to death  , and his general demeanor plus that Satanic presence of uncle Toni. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Gollum

[I6MTW]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Yes, if Fed doesn't end up with most slams, I hope Rafa gets it. Both go for the winners rather than play defensively. 

Nole generally has more winners than Rafa. Fed is on a different level, we might never see another one like him the way courts are slowing down. Last of that era which played first strike tennis, though in Fed's case it was the overlap between 2 eras with polar opposite playing conditions. Btw Nole was very aggressive in his younger days, before 2011...check out his matches then, he would match even Fed as far as attacking tennis was concerned but lose more often than win. 

 

This is old news. NY has always been this way. But they did pay a huge amount of money to watch the game. Players have to bear it.

 

Some players have to bear it more than others. As I said 2015 F where they were making noises when the ball was in Nole's half to throw him off guard. IMO AO crowd is the best behaved.

 

Sampras rarely played in RG. That was the norm in the 90s. Anyone who excels in grass, will have a tough time in clay and vice versa. Fed being a similar type of player, felt it better to concentrate on grass and hard courts as he got older. But unlike Sampras, Fed played a lot in clay when he was in his prime. That's why Rafa has a great record against him. Most of their early meetings came in clay. This was not just RG, but also the other clay courts you mentioned. I don't think its a betrayal when a 30+ Fed wants to choose which court he plays in. For you to use the word betrayal and bad taste doesn't apply here if you watched tennis in the 90s. Players used to retire when they hit 30

 

Can not compare 90s era with post 2002. Court speed is now homogenized making transition between surfaces way easier, IMO only Agassi's career GS is legit. What you said does not hold true today, and Fed's game is vastly different from Sampras' (more all round, better defence, inferior serve and net game....), players are shaped by their environment, in this case ultra slow conditions. Who plays tennis like this these days? 

 

I haven't watched every Fed match that's why I asked for evidence. If you don't have it, let it go.

I gave the evidence, recent matches:

Nole USO 15

Kyrgios Miami 17

Zverep ATP Finals 18

 

@Real McCoy I doubt we can change each other's outlook here, so let us chill .

 

I don't like Nole that much tbh, only liked his game before 2011 but then his playing style became very monotonous. But Nadal has to be stopped and hence I prefer the lesser evil. Always a Fed fan, If his record has to be broken I would prefer someone with a balanced record than a one court specialist who often got lucky elsewhere. And I also happen to hate Nadal since early days when he would moonball Fed's BH to death  , and his general demeanor plus that Satanic presence of uncle Toni. 

Nadal is worse. I used to prefer Djokovic to Nadal, but his FO incident this year, plus this 4th round US Open match has made me dislike him even more. So, for me both Nadal and Djokovic are bad.

I don't mind seeing Feds records broken if it were someone who plays an all court game and all surface tennis. Nadal and Djokovic maybe decent on all surfaces because of their high seeds, easier draws and decent levels in other surfaces but they do not posses a GOAT worthy all court game. Nadal is based on moonballing and topspin. Djokovic is defensive, wearing opponents down. 

 

Federer in his prime was good at everything, forehand , defense, attack, footwork and movement, serve, even ROS. Only his backhand may have improved in recent years, but it certainly wasn't bad back then.  

[Gollum]

23 minutes ago, I6MTW said:

Nadal is worse. I used to prefer Djokovic to Nadal, but his FO incident this year, plus this 4th round US Open match has made me dislike him even more. So, for me both Nadal and Djokovic are bad.

Nadal is the worst, the way he has abused rules his whole career 

Quote

I don't mind seeing Feds records broken if it were someone who plays an all court game and all surface tennis.

Nole comes closest to that but significantly behind, Fed is unique.

Quote

Nadal and Djokovic maybe decent on all surfaces because of their high seeds, easier draws and decent levels in other surfaces

Nole and easier draws? Decent on other surfaces? Come on man, you know that isn't true. He has won majors going through some of the most brutal draws one can imagine, often beating another member of big 3 in the final. And he is not merely decent on other surfaces, he is elite on HC, grass, indoors and could (at least till a couple of years back) go toe to toe with Nadal on clay like no other player could/can. 

Quote

but they do not posses a GOAT worthy all court game. Nadal is based on moonballing and topspin. Djokovic is defensive, wearing opponents down. 

If you put it that way Fed doesn't possess a GOAT worthy mental game, choking so often and losing 'won' matches against his greatest rivals. So many matches he lost despite being the better player, winning more points....tennis like any other sport has a mental element which can not be emphasized enough, where Smith trumps Kohli or Marin over Sindhu. 

Quote

Federer in his prime was good at everything, forehand , defense, attack, footwork and movement, serve, even ROS. Only his backhand may have improved in recent years, but it certainly wasn't bad back then.  

If you are talking about his prime, apart from BH and mental toughness his ROS wasn't that great...good but here we are talking about ATG candidates. 

Edited September 5, 2019 by Gollum

[I6MTW]

1 hour ago, Gollum said:

Nadal is the worst, the way he has abused rules his whole career 

Nole comes closest to that but significantly behind, Fed is unique.

Nole and easier draws? Decent on other surfaces? Come on man, you know that isn't true. He has won majors going through some of the most brutal draws one can imagine, often beating another member of big 3 in the final. And he is not merely decent on other surfaces, he is elite on HC, grass, indoors and could (at least till a couple of years back) go toe to toe with Nadal on clay like no other player could/can. 

If you put it that way Fed doesn't possess a GOAT worthy mental game, choking so often and losing 'won' matches against his greatest rivals. So many matches he lost despite being the better player, winning more points....tennis like any other sport has a mental element which can not be emphasized enough, where Smith trumps Kohli or Marin over Sindhu. 

If you are talking about his prime, apart from BH and mental toughness his ROS wasn't that great...good but here we are talking about ATG candidates. 

There was a time when Nole had some of the toughest draws, but those days are gone. They were from 2010-15. The past few years, his draws have been quite easy. Almost Nadal's level. Of course nothing compares to 17 USO, but last few years have been quite easy, minus the time where he was injured and didn't make it thru the draws. He added 3-4 slams over the past year they easy draws, it doesn't help either that the competition is at it's lowest in years.

 

As for Nole's game, he has probably the best ROS(though he struggles against big servers at times), one of the best backhands, a good forehand, great defense and movement throughout the court, his Serve has become a weapon the past couple of years. So those areas of his game are great. His limitations are his attacking game, his net and volley game, and his atrocious lob and smash. Djokovic started his career as an attacking baseliner, when that didn't work he switched to defense. He is actually quite limited and doesn't have that much variety. Which is why Wawrinka with his power game can overpower him from the baseline. He struggles against him. It's just that not a lot have the mental strength and fitness to take him on. He also struggles a lot against the Next Gen players. Also , he does have success on all surfaces(did he ever play on carpet? I'm not sure). But that doesn't meant he is an ATG on all of them. He is an ATG on Hard court, both outdoor and indoor hard, on clay it is debatable(same with Federer) , because of Nadal they don't have a lot of clay achievements, compared with the past great clay courter, such as Muster, Kuerten, then there's obviously Borg, Vilas, etc. 

On Grass, I agree has had 5 Wimbledon titles(3 of them due to choking by Federer), but I doubt he is an ATG, his record is inflated. Would Djokovic be at a competitive level on grass in the previous eras? When there was Sampras, Becker, Edberg, etc? What about the 80s? I highly doubt it. Federer might have. He had the grass game. I do agree he is better on all surfaces than Nadal.

 

As for Fed's mental game. I agree. But you could argue, it's because of the arrival of his two main rivals that he his choking arrived in the first place. His mental strength is quite underrated, he is known to fight till the very end, just check his record from coming back from a set down(BO3) or two sets down(BO5), or the no of MPs saved. His case is quite an anomaly. He has equally fought back from matches as well as equally choked matches. Which I attribute to his main rivals arrival. It's not as if Fed's mental game is atrocious. See W 2008 final, a mono Fed came back from two sets down with his biggest rival and almost won the match. I mean how many times would he actually choke from 40-15? 99% of the time he would've converted. 

 

As for Fed's game at his prime. Of course his ROS doesn't compare to Nole or Murray, but it was effective and underrated. He had the block, chipped returns , and was effective in neutralising the killer serves. His mental strength wasn't tested in his prime (2004-7) I think because he didn't face his toughest rivals. But he did manage to overcome Nadal since 2015 after being dominated for so many years. Now he has to solve the Djokovic puzzle. Will he get a chance to I don't know. Since W 2019, he has been on a mental decline as well as the physical injury in the Dimitrov match. Will he come back I don't know. But I've been wrong before, especially in 2016. So hopefully he comes back stronger.