Would Kapil Dev make it into the current Indian bowling line up as a strike bowler?

[Rightarmfast]

5 hours ago, vvvslaxman said:

Did you hear Bill lawry saying "Sheer pace" Yes he was not a trundler as we would like to believe just because he had a super easy run up.

No bro. I beg to differ. Sheer pace can sometime even be referential statement. If you have a bowling partner bowling at 110k's and you bowl at 130, then definitely you are quick.

 

Also, if we have to cherry pick some deliveries, even Vinay Kumar can be made to look like a legend. 

 

Definitely Kapil was a legend, but not a greater bowler than the present lot. Not a better bowler than Srinath. He could walk into this team, but not as the first 3 leading pacers. Only as a back up can he come.

[vvvslaxman]

14 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

No bro. I beg to differ. Sheer pace can sometime even be referential statement. If you have a bowling partner bowling at 110k's and you bowl at 130, then definitely you are quick.

 

Also, if we have to cherry pick some deliveries, even Vinay Kumar can be made to look like a legend. 

 

Definitely Kapil was a legend, but not a greater bowler than the present lot. Not a better bowler than Srinath. He could walk into this team, but not as the first 3 leading pacers. Only as a back up can he come.

Guys like Umesh, Ishant were sucking balls for so long. Now that they have got some wickets in a couple of tests he becomes a better pick than Kapil. No way. Shami is at his peak. But when did he make debut how long before he reached this level? Kapil almost instantly became world class bowler. None of these guys are capable of singlehandedly leading the attack. They all depend on each other. To go with they have two world class spinners at home. It is collectively a good unit.  Bumrah is probably an exception at this point. But we have to wait and see how long he can maintain this.

[Rightarmfast]

8 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

Guys like Umesh, Ishant were sucking balls for so long. Now that they have got some wickets in a couple of tests he becomes a better pick than Kapil. No way. Shami is at his peak. But when did he make debut how long before he reached this level? Kapil almost instantly became world class bowler. None of these guys are capable of singlehandedly leading the attack. They all depend on each other. To go with they have two world class spinners at home. It is collectively a good unit.  Bumrah is probably an exception at this point. But we have to wait and see how long he can maintain this.

And Kapil became a world class bowler at the word go? You should check his stats. Not a lot of contemporary players considered Kapil a great bowler at any given point of time. He was a good bowler for sure. 

I have seen Kapil bowl during his playing days. He never was destructive. It was always a wait and watch game with Kapil. Kapil did not even have the same effect as Srinath, who was genuinely dangerous in the first spells. Dangerous was not a word you would associate with Kapil. You would call Bumrah dangerous, you would call Shami dangerous, Srinath and Zaheer as dangerous. One would never call Kapil dangerous. 

That would sum up my comment.

[vvvslaxman]

4 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

And Kapil became a world class bowler at the word go? You should check his stats. Not a lot of contemporary players considered Kapil a great bowler at any given point of time. He was a good bowler for sure. 

I have seen Kapil bowl during his playing days. He never was destructive. It was always a wait and watch game with Kapil. Kapil did not even have the same effect as Srinath, who was genuinely dangerous in the first spells. Dangerous was not a word you would associate with Kapil. You would call Bumrah dangerous, you would call Shami dangerous, Srinath and Zaheer as dangerous. One would never call Kapil dangerous. 

That would sum up my comment.

You are confusing speed with bowling skills.  The bowlers like Srinath, Zaheer, Shami, Bumrah are good because they are skilled not "dangerous".  We are talking about skills. These guys are not dangerous bowlers as you hype. True dangerous bowlers are Akhtar, Brett Lee kind of bowlers. Not these guys. Shami's most of the wickets come from full balls. How is he "dangerous". 

[Rightarmfast]

40 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

You are confusing speed with bowling skills.  The bowlers like Srinath, Zaheer, Shami, Bumrah are good because they are skilled not "dangerous".  We are talking about skills. These guys are not dangerous bowlers as you hype. True dangerous bowlers are Akhtar, Brett Lee kind of bowlers. Not these guys. Shami's most of the wickets come from full balls. How is he "dangerous". 

No baba. Its not me who's confused. Its you. Where did I even mention bowling speed? For me, a dangerous bowler would be Mcgrath. Not quick by any yardstick, but ample dangerous. Another would be Curtly Ambrose, not express. But decently sharp. But very dangerous. Saqlain mushtaq was very dangerous. And he was just a spinner.

A dangerous bowler for me is someone who gives you the impression that at any point of time he could take a wicket. Kapil did not have the aura. 

If I were to compare someone with Kapil, I would name Chaminda Vaas. Not dangerous, but effective at times. I could also say someone like Chris Cairns. Or Kapil could be a notch above Chris Cairns as a bowler. 

 

I genuinely feel Chaminda Vaas and Chris Cairns are the closest you could define Kapil as. And neither of those 2 are good enough to be in the present line up.

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

No bro. I beg to differ. Sheer pace can sometime even be referential statement. If you have a bowling partner bowling at 110k's and you bowl at 130, then definitely you are quick.

 

Also, if we have to cherry pick some deliveries, even Vinay Kumar can be made to look like a legend. 

 

Definitely Kapil was a legend, but not a greater bowler than the present lot. Not a better bowler than Srinath. He could walk into this team, but not as the first 3 leading pacers. Only as a back up can he come.

people like you should imagine  as to how different it is to bowl  for a quality bowler(say Bumrah)  in the company of   Shami,Ishant,Bhuvi, Ashwin ,Jadeja,Umesh etc  when compared to bowling along with  Binny,Madanlal, Sastri,Maninder,Prabhakar,Shiv lal Yadav etc etc

[Rightarmfast]

1 minute ago, rtmohanlal said:

people like you should imagine  as to how different it is to bowl  for a quality bowler(say Bumrah)  in the company of   Shami,Ishant,Bhuvi, Ashwin ,Jadeja,Umesh etc  when compared to bowling along with  Binny,Madanlal, Sastri,Maninder,Prabhakar,Shiv lal Yadav etc etc

When am I saying it is not difficult? Its very difficult. it was the same case with Srinath. Both Kapil and Srinath would perform great with the present lot. But the present lot has a lot of additional skill sets which I am not sure Kapil had

[Rightarmfast]

I will just put 2 of Chris Cairns performances. See such bowling in isolation do look legendary. 

 

 

 

 

 

So relatable to Kapil. Great bowling action, Looks visibly quick and also bowled throughout his career without a bowling partner. But is Chris Cairns better than our current set of pacers?

[rtmohanlal]

24 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

When am I saying it is not difficult? Its very difficult. it was the same case with Srinath. Both Kapil and Srinath would perform great with the present lot. But the present lot has a lot of additional skill sets which I am not sure Kapil had

'additional skill sets' or not , it makes a lot of difference to be in the company of  quality bowlers when compared to  be in the company of mediocre bowlers. For instance take Shami, his support bowl avg: is  29.71 which is quality of the highest level.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=overall;orderby=wickets;player_involve=63646;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

Compare this to Kapil who had to deal with some 38.8  in his first 21823 balls, then you can perceive the difference it can make

[Rightarmfast]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

'additional skill sets' or not , it makes a lot of difference to be in the company of  quality bowlers when compared to  be in the company of mediocre bowlers. For instance take Shami, his support bowl avg: is  29.71 which is quality of the highest level.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;groupby=overall;orderby=wickets;player_involve=63646;team=6;template=results;type=bowling

 

Compare this to Kapil who had to deal with some 38.8  in his first 21823 balls, then you can perceive the difference it can make

The difference is that I am not talking rhetorics. I am talking what I see and what is quantifiable.

[Muloghonto]

3 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

No bro. I beg to differ. Sheer pace can sometime even be referential statement. If you have a bowling partner bowling at 110k's and you bowl at 130, then definitely you are quick.

 

Also, if we have to cherry pick some deliveries, even Vinay Kumar can be made to look like a legend. 

 

Definitely Kapil was a legend, but not a greater bowler than the present lot. Not a better bowler than Srinath. He could walk into this team, but not as the first 3 leading pacers. Only as a back up can he come.

A lone horse bowler, spearheading a weak team, who averages 23 with the ball vs an ATG batting lineup and one of the top 4 ever fielded, is a better bowler than Ishant or Shami and is still better than a hotshot who has only played ten tests. 

[Muloghonto]

Ishant and Shami have more or less linear stats. Better than career average against weak teams, worse than career average vs better teams. This means they are not being ineffective due to lone spearhead duties or due to overwork. Kapil has the opposite and I’ve always maintained that for similar career averages, the guy who excels vs tougher oppositon vs against minnows is a much better player.

[Rightarmfast]

3 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Ishant and Shami have more or less linear stats. Better than career average against weak teams, worse than career average vs better teams. This means they are not being ineffective due to lone spearhead duties or due to overwork. Kapil has the opposite and I’ve always maintained that for similar career averages, the guy who excels vs tougher oppositon vs against minnows is a much better player.

So tell me who was a better bowler, Imran or Kapil? ( Btw, I have not responded to your comments. Will do that separately some other time)

[Muloghonto]

15 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

So tell me who was a better bowler, Imran or Kapil? ( Btw, I have not responded to your comments. Will do that separately some other time)

If we overlook ball tampering, it’s Imran but the gap isn’t as wide as their averages indicate 

[First class]

3 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

If we overlook ball tampering, it’s Imran but the gap isn’t as wide as their averages indicate 

Kapil was a great allrounder , at par with Imran in batting but comparing Kapil with Imran in bowling is like comparing Marshall ( Imran ) with Roger Binny ( Kapil ). Imran was way ahead. Some pinheads always bring out this ball tampering ( now they call it reverse swing ) to downplay Imran, Have a heart FGS. 

[rtmohanlal]

5 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

So tell me who was a better bowler, Imran or Kapil? ( Btw, I have not responded to your comments. Will do that separately some other time)

As I always maintain Kapil was a 26.25 - 26.8 averaging bowler when pitted against some one like  Imran  . Kapil  average was achieved withstanding much longevity, far bigger work density & far inferior support bowling strength when compared to Imran. To add to that, if we  assign weightages to

bowl str:, against Windies abroad,  abroad/home etc  the gap reduces even further.

 

If we add fair play based on ball tampering into the mix , I would place Kapil over Imran as a pure bowler, let alone all rounder.

[vvvslaxman]

9 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

No baba. Its not me who's confused. Its you. Where did I even mention bowling speed? For me, a dangerous bowler would be Mcgrath. Not quick by any yardstick, but ample dangerous. Another would be Curtly Ambrose, not express. But decently sharp. But very dangerous. Saqlain mushtaq was very dangerous. And he was just a spinner.

A dangerous bowler for me is someone who gives you the impression that at any point of time he could take a wicket. Kapil did not have the aura. 

If I were to compare someone with Kapil, I would name Chaminda Vaas. Not dangerous, but effective at times. I could also say someone like Chris Cairns. Or Kapil could be a notch above Chris Cairns as a bowler. 

 

I genuinely feel Chaminda Vaas and Chris Cairns are the closest you could define Kapil as. And neither of those 2 are good enough to be in the present line up.

You are indirecty equating our current bowlers to Ambrose, Mcgrath lol  No these are not even close to that level.  Basically you have not watched Kapil at his peak then.  None of these guys have performed long enough to be compared with any of them. Ishant/Umesh  both were distinctly average for the best part of their career.  Short and wide sharma, Erratic Umesh.   Shami is at his very best of his career. Bumrah has just started out. WIthout knowing how long this can last declaring them as something like "ATGs" is too early. This thread will become a highly bumpable thread after  a couple of bad series. As a unit they are really good. Mcgrath in isolation is good. Ambrose in isolation was good. But these guys cannot carry the bowling attack entirely on their shoulders. As someone said you are directly transporting Kapil from the 80s with the same kind of awareness, training methods, support staffs, ground conditions etc without considering what he would have done to adapt himself. Let these guys get 300 wickets first then we can start the comparison.

[Rightarmfast]

1 minute ago, vvvslaxman said:

You are indirecty equating our current bowlers to Ambrose, Mcgrath lol  No these are not even close to that level.  Basically you have not watched Kapil at his peak then.  None of these guys have performed long enough to be compared with any of them. Ishant/Umesh  both were distinctly average for the best part of their career.  Short and wide sharma, Erratic Umesh.   Shami is at his very best of his career. Bumrah has just started out. WIthout knowing how long this can last declaring them as something like "ATGs" is too early. This thread will become a highly bumpable thread after  a couple of bad series. As a unit they are really good. Mcgrath in isolation is good. Ambrose in isolation was good. But these guys cannot carry the bowling attack entirely on their shoulders. As someone said you are directly transporting Kapil from the 80s with the same kind of awareness, training methods, support staffs, ground conditions etc without considering what he would have done to adapt himself. Let these guys get 300 wickets first then we can start the comparison.

Conversely, you are already starting from an argument where you consider his 434 wickets and 131 test matches before considering how he got those wickets. 

Btw, you have totally mixed up the whole topic from one point to another. Btw, yes. I am comparing the current lot to Ambrose and Mcgrath but at no point am I saying that they are definitely better than such bowlers.  I said they gave the same vibe. Please read my comment again. Also check Chris Cairns. What do you say about him? And see what Bill Lawry speaks about his pace. 

[vvvslaxman]

1 hour ago, Rightarmfast said:

Conversely, you are already starting from an argument where you consider his 434 wickets and 131 test matches before considering how he got those wickets. 

Btw, you have totally mixed up the whole topic from one point to another. Btw, yes. I am comparing the current lot to Ambrose and Mcgrath but at no point am I saying that they are definitely better than such bowlers.  I said they gave the same vibe. Please read my comment again. Also check Chris Cairns. What do you say about him? And see what Bill Lawry speaks about his pace. 

Chris cairns is a lower tier all roudner. Not even remotely close to Kapil who opened the bowling for us even after Srinath's entry.  He is a better new ball bowler than these guys. They don't remotely give me any vibe. As a unit they are good when in form. Injury to a couple of them they will be exposed against good batting sides. At this point many teams lack good batting stars with test batting skills. Only a handful like Williamson, Root, Smith, Warner.  Same SA team got bowled out for 123 and 73 runs in SL. They got beaten by SL in SA.  So i am going to reserve my judgement before hypign them up. We are still one of the worst bowling against tailenders amongst all countries. A team loaded with supposedly ATG bowling attack should not struggle this much against tailenders. 

[Muloghonto]

4 hours ago, First class said:

Kapil was a great allrounder , at par with Imran in batting but comparing Kapil with Imran in bowling is like comparing Marshall ( Imran ) with Roger Binny ( Kapil ). Imran was way ahead. Some pinheads always bring out this ball tampering ( now they call it reverse swing ) to downplay Imran, Have a heart FGS. 

Not way ahead since against top notch batting they are way closer