Would Kapil Dev make it into the current Indian bowling line up as a strike bowler?

[Straight Drive]

10 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Kapil actually devalued himself as a bowler by going for that 434 number.

 

He would have been remembered as a much better bowler if he had retired with 300 to 325 wickets.

 

Cumulative records are hardly considered for greatness ... and it is the bowling averages and strike rates and the impact on opposition batsmen and hostility which have defined great pace bowlers.  After all, none of Roberts, Garner, Holding or Croft could manage 260 test wickets even.

Off course Kapil does not has the strike rate and average of some specialist pace bowlers. But we cannot look into Kapil Devs career in isolation. Our team depended on his runs as well. He had to spend time on his batting as well.If he was a specialist bowler then a lot of things would have worked in his favor and we would have seen much higher number of test wickets from him as well as better strike rate and better average while bowling.

[Rightarmfast]

16 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

I said Indian pacers. Read properly.

How many Indian pacers have been given chance play 100 tests?

[Straight Drive]

9 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

How many Indian pacers have been given chance play 100 tests?

In 87 years of test cricket India has played so far, there is no pace bowler who has Kapil like fitness. It's up to other bowlers to maintain there fitness and skill so as to play as many tests. It's not Kapil Dev's problem.

Edited November 10, 2019 by Straight Drive

[express bowling]

I would rather have a bowler who has played 60 or 70 tests and averages 20 to 23 than a bowler who plays 100 tests and averages 29 to 32.

Edited November 10, 2019 by express bowling

[Rightarmfast]

44 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

In 87 years of test cricket India has played so far, there is no pace bowler who has Kapil like fitness. It's up to other bowlers to maintain there fitness and skill so as to play as many tests. It's not Kapil Dev's problem.

Fitness is when a bowler is bowling at his optimum. By 89-90, Kapil was bowling military medium pace. Using all his muscles to keep away upcoming fast bowlers. Eventually which led Srinath to lose atleast 20 test matches from his career. 

Playing so long doesnt really equate to fitness. but got more to do with politics. 

Edited November 10, 2019 by Rightarmfast

[rtmohanlal]

56 minutes ago, Straight Drive said:

Off course Kapil does not has the strike rate and average of some specialist pace bowlers. But we cannot look into Kapil Devs career in isolation. Our team depended on his runs as well. He had to spend time on his batting as well.If he was a specialist bowler then a lot of things would have worked in his favor and we would have seen much higher number of test wickets from him as well as better strike rate and better average while bowling.

this is the core point . A lot of people just take his bowl avg:  alone with out giving a damn about the adversities against which Kapil achieved his avg: .

I had posted several stats thru out w.r.t this. Based on that ,Kapil when pitted against some one like  MIchael Holding has been a 26.25-26.75 bowler as far as I  am concerned.

 

Some people even question  Kapil's late stay in the team in the 90s. They need to  have a look into  series wise avg:s of Kapil during the  90s .Then can realize that almost in all of them Kapil  did justice  to his place in the team in 1 discipline alone, let alone 2 disciplines combined. For instance Kapil averaged 55 in ENG with bat .In SAF he was the best  batsman even surpassing Sachin.In AUS he was the best bowler of the team.He saved India from embarrassment in ZIM. All these happend in the 90s.

[Rightarmfast]

You do realize that the topic of discussion is if he was a better bowler than the current lot? Why bring any unnecessary stats to a bowling thread? What could have been and what couldnt have been is not the topic of discussion. 

[Straight Drive]

6 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Fitness is when a bowler is bowling at his optimum. By 89-90, Kapil was bowling military medium pace. Using all his muscles to keep away upcoming fast bowlers. Eventually which led Srinath to lose atleast 20 test matches from his career. 

Playing so long doesnt really equate to fitness. but got more to do with politics. 

Kapil bowled a lot of overs and on unsupportive home wickets. Moreover he also batted and batting also causes energy drain. I  disagree on your views about Kapil's fitness. Playing 130 odd test matches by missing only one test is a dream for cricketers.

[rtmohanlal]

8 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

You do realize that the topic of discussion is if he was a better bowler than the current lot? Why bring any unnecessary stats to a bowling thread? What could have been and what couldnt have been is not the topic of discussion. 

it is not unnecessary stats. It is stats  based on contexts Kapil played in. An Ishant Sharma can average 34   in the company of several <30 averaging bowlers. The same Ishant  would average far worse if he  played along with a set of  >35 averaging bowlers all thru his career.This is a matter of basic cricketing sense with out which these type of one one comparisons doesn't make any sense at all.

[Straight Drive]

13 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

this is the core point . A lot of people just take his bowl avg:  alone with out giving a damn about the adversities against which Kapil achieved his avg: .

I had posted several stats thru out w.r.t this. Based on that ,Kapil when pitted against some one like  MIchael Holding has been a 26.25-26.75 bowler as far as I  am concerned.

 

Some people even question  Kapil's late stay in the team in the 90s. They need to  have a look into  series wise avg:s of Kapil during the  90s .Then can realize that almost in all of them Kapil  did justice  to his place in the team in 1 discipline alone, let alone 2 disciplines combined. For instance Kapil averaged 55 in ENG with bat .In SAF he was the best  batsman even surpassing Sachin.In AUS he was the best bowler of the team.He saved India from embarrassment in ZIM. All these happend in the 90s.

 

Exactly. There is no point in looking at Kapil's batting and bowling separately.

 

 

[Rightarmfast]

12 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

it is not unnecessary stats. It is stats  based on contexts Kapil played in. An Ishant Sharma can average 34   in the company of several <30 averaging bowlers. The same Ishant  would average far worse if he  played along with a set of  >35 averaging bowlers all thru his career.This is a matter of basic cricketing sense with out which these type of one one comparisons doesn't make any sense at all.

Lets not get into rhetorics. Lets just stick to the topic. Kapil as a bowler. Thats it. Kapil just as a bowler was not as impactful as others. Simple. 

[rtmohanlal]

7 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Lets not get into rhetorics. Lets just stick to the topic. Kapil as a bowler. Thats it. Kapil just as a bowler was not as impactful as others. Simple. 

nothing more to   elaborate on this. For me Kapil has been a 26.25-26.75 bowler when pitted against ATG bowlers.  If you have different opinions so be it. Each to their own.

[express bowling]

Hadlee bowled with a lot of mediocre bowlers too and had to bat too.

Edited November 11, 2019 by express bowling

[putrevus]

45 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Most good bowling attacks need a leader.  The great Aussie pace attack did not look the same without McGrath.

 

 

Never said he is great as of today.

 

But Bumrah is the most complete pacer I have ever seen from India.  

 

 

I have watched Kapil bowl for most of his career.  He wasn't that threatening for the last two thirds of his career.  When he bowled, batsmen were usually not that afraid of getting out from the mid 1980s onwards. 

 

Shami has always had a much better SR than Kapil.  And Shami's SR is that of a champion bowler. And his average is good too. Plus he is far more hostile than Kapil ... which puts the batter's under a lot of psychological pressure.

 

Ifs and buts are nothing but conjecture.

Most attacks need a leader so , what did Kapil have, he was the strike bowler, he was the run stopper, he was the fill in bowler.He was all in one.How do you expect him to have stats comparable to a bowler in proper bowling lineup.

 

I never said Bumrah was bad, all I said was let us wait till Bumrah reaches 200 wickets then we can talk about his greatness.

 

Having a good strike rate is also by product of being a part of good bowling attacks.In Kapil Dev's time India did not have good spinners at home he could rely like Shami.

[putrevus]

17 hours ago, express bowling said:

Hadlee bowled with a lot of mediocre bowlers too and had to bat too.

Kapil Dev is not Hadlee, even Kapil Dev knew it  and acknowledges it very openly that Hadlee was  best bowler among the four. Is Bumrah Hadlee ?

Forget his batting plus, if Bumrah ends with Hadlee's stats then India will have one of the greatest bowlers.

 

[putrevus]

On 11/10/2019 at 12:31 AM, Rightarmfast said:

For those who have seen Kapil bowl on his best days know, that Ishant bowls just as good as Kapil. Kapil never had the fear factor going in for him when he bowled. 

Only people who saw Kapil bowl will know. Stats and highlights are misleading. 

 

5 and a half out of 7 days, Kapil used to be a very very mediocre bowler! 

Weren't you the guy who said Kallis and Sachin don't belong in same level in tests.But Ishant and Kapil belong in same level wow.

[Rightarmfast]

19 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Weren't you the guy who said Kallis and Sachin don't belong in same level in tests.But Ishant and Kapil belong in same level wow.

Werent you the same guy who said Md Shami shouldnt be in the team because he cant bat? Werent you the same guy who said Shami is not a wicket taking bowler? Such cricket acument, WOW!

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, Rightarmfast said:

Werent you the same guy who said Md Shami shouldnt be in the team because he cant bat? Werent you the same guy who said Shami is not a wicket taking bowler? Such cricket acument, WOW!

I still believe that Shami's non selection was not wrong in world cup semis. I don't think I have said Shami was not a wicket taker but if I had said I was wrong.

[Moochad]

It's not even a question. Kapil bowling with actual partners would have let him run through sides. The less load on his bowling would also help his batting.

 

Add that he is a great fielder, and he would be a 3 format star. 

[rtmohanlal]

14 hours ago, Moochad said:

It's not even a question. Kapil bowling with actual partners would have let him run through sides. The less load on his bowling would also help his batting.

 

Add that he is a great fielder, and he would be a 3 format star. 

this is one point which a lot of people do not take into  account.  The work load  Kapil carried in bowling was so enormous when compared with his fellow all rounders. This definitely had an impact in his batting too.