The myth of Pakistani "warriors"

[Muloghonto]

11 hours ago, vice said:

The laurels of the greatest Bending over and cowardice instance in the history of India goes to Bengalis.

 

Some of you mentioning conversions to Islam and Islamic invasions into India as a yardstick then despite being sheltered away in a safe corner and more than thousand miles away from the epicenter, there are upwards of 180 million Muslims of Bengali origin.  Courtesy the one time that a dozen or so men on horses led by Bakhtiar Khilji managed to cross the breadth of India, and in front of whom the Bengalis prostrated and bended over without even giving a fight.  The epitome of bending over and cowardice. The rest is history as they say, as there are around 180 million Muslims of Bengali origin. Even the Mughal record book, the Ain-i-Akbari, labels Bengalis as being ‘subservient’ who were content in providing ample taxes to their warlords.

 

Bengalis can thank the stars that that 180 odd million is somewhat in check thanks to the birthrate control or else that number would’ve skyrocketed at an exponential level.  Considering the percentage of muslims in West Bengal is also on a rise, somewhat close to 30%,  and the resident Bengalis are shitting their pants creating threads on how to save Bengal.

 

The most densely populated  and the greatest ethnic muslim population in the whole of sub continent belongs to the Bengalis. That's the real clusterfcuk right there folks. The Indian state with highest muslim percentage?  You guessed it, Bengal.

 

Again, “outside” assistance is  required to “help” them out whereas the local leadership in Dadi  seems ‘clueless’.

Unlike Punjab, Bengal was NOT converted as much. Read actual history, Bengal’s explosive Muslim growth came near the end of the Delhi Sultan period/early Mughal period, fuelled mostly by colonization. In that time period, the Ganges, Brahmaputra amen teesta ALL changed courses, causing the largest flood, famine and suffering in history of Indian subcontinent by natural disaster.

 

Possibly only the devastation of Vajji near the end of the first Magadha empire compares in scale. To give an idea, Brahmaputra flowed in the old Brahmaputra channel, Ganga flowed in the Hooghly channel and by far the biggest river of the region, who’s width was the measuring stick of ALL Bengali and Delhi literature ( relating to Bengal) dried to a trickle: Karatoya.

 

Yes, Laxman sen was a coward in his old age, panicked and fled his capital. After a war between Kamboja Palas, Palas and Senas has finally drawn to a close and the country itself was devastated. 

 

But that pales into insignificance the repeated incompetence serially displayed by the Punjabis at the hand of each and every Muslim invader till the ride of the Sikhs.

 

Bengal was keen to pacify outside powers because it was by far the richest land of India. Rice is the staple and rice is 2x more productive per acre than wheat, the staple of Punjab. On top of this, Bengal had jute, a major cash crop that it grew in industrial quantities that didn’t grow outside of the delta.

its net arable land is also much bigger than that of Punjab, being the greatest delta there is and Punjabs fertility ending at the barren Sindh-Sagar down.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Muloghonto

[Muloghonto]

12 hours ago, vice said:

What’s with the talk of Punjab not being a fertile land. Some are clutching to straws again. From the start of Indian civilization, it was fertile enough to be the home to the Indus Valley Civilization. Multiple accounts tell tales of grandeur and fertile land. 

 

Hudud al-'Alam  written in 982  in which Lahore is mentioned as a town which had "impressive temples, large markets and huge orchards."

 

Once again, Ain I Akbari further describes Punjab as a fertile land.

 

All written by Islamic invaders and Persians inhabiting a far more barren land than Punjab: yes those who ride bullock carts will praise the amazing ness of the Maruti the first time they see it. The same Mughals and Delhi Sultan, when reaching Bengal, quickly put it at the top of the wealth chart, because as explained before, Bengal has more arable land than punjab before modern irrigation canals and deep bore tube wells, Bengals staple crop ( rice) is literally twice as dense in growth factor as Punjab’s staple crop( wheat) and unlike Punjab, Bengal was blessed with industrial quantities of jute: much like marathwada was blessed with industrial quantities of cotton.

 

Quote

After 1947, Just a small portion of it was fertile enough to become to be labelled as the  Bread basket of India.  It was again at the heart of the Green revolution in India, and became food surplus decades before other states including Bengal. 

Yes, modern canal building and deep bore tubewells both started in Punjab, giving it a modern leg up. Historically, Punjab since climate patterns changed after IVC, was a rather mediocre land by Indian standards.

 

The details of Punjab from for eg Alexander and Xuanzeng’s records, depict a Nile like quality in the lower reaches of ALL Punjabi rivers, except Beas: a thin band of cultivation and scrubland in the doabs.

 

This is also double confirmed by the smallness of ALL Punjab ancient cities: Sagala, Lahore, Multan: their city wall enclosed area was literally half to one quarter the size of major gangetic plains cities like Shravasti, Vaishali, Kashi, Pataliputra, Mathura, etc. This is objectively provable.

 

And THIS is why no native Indian empire originated in Punjab till the Sikhs: I do not consider people to be superior or inferior, only opportunities to be superior or inferior. The massively more fertile Ganges plains, post onset of Meghalayan epoc in Geology( coinciding with fall of IVC) meant Gangetic empires and kingdoms could massively out produce and thus outcompete Punjab.

 

This is quadruple-ly confirmed by the fact that of the 16 Mahajanapadas that existed prior to the Magadha empire phase, 2 lay in the Deccan, 2 lay beyond Punjab ( Kamboja and Gandhara) and the rest 12 lay in the gangetic plains, with SPECIFIC mention by both Jain and Buddhist chronicles of minor polities inhabiting the Punjab plains. 

 

this ‘gap’ in geographic continuum of the mahajanapadas can only be explained by the low productivity of Punjab, which unlike Gandhara, did not make up for its lack of productivity with trade nexus or the Kamboja, with their expensive and divine war horses.

 

Edited December 21, 2019 by Muloghonto

[Real McCoy]

How did this thread devolve from poking fun at our padosis to a serious discussion about Punjabis Mysteries of ICF. Could it be...the work of ancient aliens. Ancient astronaut theories say yes

 

[Muloghonto]

14 hours ago, vice said:

The author speaks of the Indo-Pak wars, let’s not forget that it is Indian Punjabi soldiers who were at the forefront on the other side of each encounter and played a major role in every encounter.  Despite, their population, Indian Punjab and Punjabis have contributed greatly towards India’s army.   Even now, Punjab sends a high amount of jawans to the army despite the exodus of population to overseas and other states.

 

 Furthermore, punjabis have held the highest position of the Indian Army, Air Force, and heck even the Navy.  Only recently, all three heads of the Army, Air Force, and Navy were all Punjabis.  Leading the military at the highest level. 

Indeed. 100% true on this. 

[Muloghonto]

11 hours ago, Reddysaab said:

 

correct Punjabis are the newest entrant into the Indic fabric. even if we delve into ancient India, Punjabi migration to Indian area was post Vedic. they are a relatively newer people if you will. Sikh and the ensuing Sikh Influenced Punjabi martial culture which is now even adopted by Punjabi Hindu Kshatriyas actually put Punjab on the map. and the less said about Pak Punjabis the better. they are insignificant in history and just filled the numbers and accepted whatever was dished out to them. even though Pak punjabis are the majority community in Pak i think like 70% of population, the lingua franca is Urdu in Pak which pretty much evolved in the heartland of India. thats how culturally insignificant Pak punjabis are. thats bcos they really did not contribute anything unique to the Pakistani identity and national movement during partition. they just happened to be hangout like insignificants throughout history. and now shooting from the hip in the post modern era. 

No.

Punjab is the ancient extended heartland. Core of Subcontinental civilization lies in Bhirrana. Which does correspond to ‘Bhrahmavat’, the ancestral homeland. However, that died in largely phase1 at the end of Saraswati age. This was a decisive change of climate, now known as the Meghalaya phase. Generally speaking, the tropics got significantly drier. We find evidence of this in the ancient Elamite and Sumerian legends, which talk of kings or maidens of this region going on voyages to other parts of Iran. As we can see in Baluchistan itself, seasonal lakes form in monsoon seasons. For whatever reason, the data strongly suggests that the Indian monsoon shifted east, creating a locus around current day Meghalaya instead of what may be around modern day Darjeeling-East Nepal etc. locus. As such, we can see more clearly that the Arabian Sea monsoon changed from a more N-NE direction to much more east, depositing bulk on the western ghats.

 

this is the cause of IVC dying that also is cause of Punjab being the weak link of Indo-Gangetic plains. Punjabi’s got killed off a lot: unlike Bomgs, they died a lot more at the hands of people ( instead of us dying at the hands of our rivers) and there was a void that was filled by Jatts. Most historical references to Jats are as interior Sindh people ( tharparkar I believe in modern day term?) somewhere between last 800-1000 years. Filling a void in Punjab region would make sense of Punjabis also got killed off a lot while being a relatively low density area of the indo-gangetic plains.

[Stradlater]

5 hours ago, Under_Score said:

 

@Stradlater Are you sure? 

Ah never mind. 

Fckin Bongs. Can never trust these treacherous scumbags. 

Punjabi Rajasthani bhai bhai 

[Stradlater]

28 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

No.

Punjab is the ancient extended heartland. Core of Subcontinental civilization lies in Bhirrana. Which does correspond to ‘Bhrahmavat’, the ancestral homeland. However, that died in largely phase1 at the end of Saraswati age. This was a decisive change of climate, now known as the Meghalaya phase. Generally speaking, the tropics got significantly drier. We find evidence of this in the ancient Elamite and Sumerian legends, which talk of kings or maidens of this region going on voyages to other parts of Iran. As we can see in Baluchistan itself, seasonal lakes form in monsoon seasons. For whatever reason, the data strongly suggests that the Indian monsoon shifted east, creating a locus around current day Meghalaya instead of what may be around modern day Darjeeling-East Nepal etc. locus. As such, we can see more clearly that the Arabian Sea monsoon changed from a more N-NE direction to much more east, depositing bulk on the western ghats.

 

this is the cause of IVC dying that also is cause of Punjab being the weak link of Indo-Gangetic plains. Punjabi’s got killed off a lot: unlike Bomgs, they died a lot more at the hands of people ( instead of us dying at the hands of our rivers) and there was a void that was filled by Jatts. Most historical references to Jats are as interior Sindh people ( tharparkar I believe in modern day term?) somewhere between last 800-1000 years. Filling a void in Punjab region would make sense of Punjabis also got killed off a lot while being a relatively low density area of the indo-gangetic plains.

Yes Jats originated from lower Sindh. 

Arab chronicles mentioned them as pastoral people. They later moved on to Rajasthan and thereafter Punjab where they took up farming as the forests got cleared for extension of agriculture. 

 

Going a bit off tanget here but there are basically two kinds of Jats, Shivgoti and Kashyapgoti. 

Shivgoti are the descendants of the original Sindh ones and are mostly found in today's Rajasthan and parts of Haryana. 

Kashyapgoti otoh claimed Rajput descent . For instance, Bhatti Rajput descent claimed by Randhawa, Sidhu. Chauhan descent claimed by Bajwa, Ahlawat etc. 

[Stradlater]

50 minutes ago, Muloghonto said:

Indeed. 100% true on this. 

A slight correction. 

Gone are the days of Punjab sending highest number of soldiers. These days, Rajasthan, Uttarakhand and Haryana contributes the most. 

[FischerTal]

37 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

A slight correction. 

Gone are the days of Punjab sending highest number of soldiers. These days, Rajasthan, Uttarakhand and Haryana contributes the most. 

that would be true for officers, but not for JCOs and NCOs

[Stradlater]

3 hours ago, FischerTal said:

that would be true for officers, but not for JCOs and NCOs

Wrong. Proportion wise the share of Punjab has decreased considerably with its position taken over by Uttarakhand which in the last five years has emerged as the foremost state in sena bharti as per the data released by the defense ministry. 

Overall proportion wise Himachal is at top and then comes Uttarakhand.

Edited December 21, 2019 by Stradlater

[Stradlater]

If we talk in absolutely numbers than UP tops the list but that is given considering it's position as the highest populated state in India. 

[FischerTal]

27 minutes ago, Stradlater said:

Wrong. Proportion wise the share of Punjab has decreased considerably with its position taken over by Uttarakhand which in the last five years has emerged as the foremost state in sena bharti as per the data released by the defense ministry. 

Overall proportion wise Himachal is at top and then comes Uttarakhand.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/from-north-punjab-sends-most-jawans-to-army-865501 

 

maybe Uttarakhand is at top, but as far as Northern states are concerned, Punjab remains number one in sending to Army.

[Stradlater]

4 hours ago, FischerTal said:

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/from-north-punjab-sends-most-jawans-to-army-865501 

 

maybe Uttarakhand is at top, but as far as Northern states are concerned, Punjab remains number one in sending to Army.

Yar I'm unable to attach pictures here. Anyway as per records from 2015-18 , HP and UK were at the top in JCO recruitment in proportion to population. 

In Himachal, it was 111 JCOs per one lakh people while for UK it was 100.

Punjab was at abysmal low of 50 only. 

https://www.firstpost.com/india/gujarat-more-audience-of-war-than-participant-state-has-high-nationalistic-fervour-but-ranks-low-on-army-recruitment-6494051.html

 

[Muloghonto]

The holy grail in historical analysis, is multiple points of convergence: if one comes to the same conclusion from multiple angles, it becomes nearly incontestable.

 

1. Why would an agricultural plain in the same geo-political setup as the other great agricultural plain see much smaller cities and much fewer of them than the other ? Because it’s less productive. Same reason why Mesopotamia hosted a bigger # of cities than Egypt and when push came to shove, Mesopotamians ( specifically the Assyrians and the Neo Babylonian) conquered them. Holds true for Mesopotamia-Egypt holds true for Punjab-Ganges.

 

 

2. Why would Punjab never form a native empire, till 2000 years later, next to Gangetic plains ? Because Gangetic plains is more productive.

 

3. Hang on, can it just be that Gangetic plains is just bigger and thus override all of them ? No, because of Mahajanapadas situation: tiny but extremely powerful and wealthy kingdoms spanning 200-300  radius dotted the Gangetic plains but not Punjab. It skipped Punjab because again, not productive enough. Doesn’t have geo-strategic advantage of Asmaka or Gandhara( main outlet points to Uttarapatha and Daksinapatha) or strategic materials advantage like crap ton of war horses. 

 

The sixteen mahajanapada stage distinctly relegated Punjab and Sindh regions. They were not ‘included’ in the Kuru or Matsya kingdoms ( directly east of Punjab) or in Gandhara ( directly north and north-west).

 

The list all mention at least two of the followings three Punjab kingdoms ( most mention all three): Trigarta, Madra and Kekaya.

They are ALWAYS cast as the minor janapadas, along with Sindhu-Sauviras ( 1 kingdom most of the time with apparent intermittent breakup of the two into seperate kingdoms), along with Pundravardhana, lichchavi etc.

 

Multiple point of convergence on why Punjab was a minor player in history and all of them point at one root cause: far less fertility of Punjab plains to support a dense population like Gangetic plains.

[vice]

Stats from the 2011 Census.

 

Missed Assam, tbh it wasn’t in my radar but factor that lower Assam also has Muslims of Bengali origin.  So alright, the second highest state with the most Muslim percentage of its total population.  Do recall, J&K, is no longer a state :P.  Focal point still holds, the highest percentage of Muslims in the sub continent are of Bengali original with roughly estimates of around 160-180+ million.

[Stradlater]

16 hours ago, Muloghonto said:

The holy grail in historical analysis, is multiple points of convergence: if one comes to the same conclusion from multiple angles, it becomes nearly incontestable.

 

1. Why would an agricultural plain in the same geo-political setup as the other great agricultural plain see much smaller cities and much fewer of them than the other ? Because it’s less productive. Same reason why Mesopotamia hosted a bigger # of cities than Egypt and when push came to shove, Mesopotamians ( specifically the Assyrians and the Neo Babylonian) conquered them. Holds true for Mesopotamia-Egypt holds true for Punjab-Ganges.

 

 

2. Why would Punjab never form a native empire, till 2000 years later, next to Gangetic plains ? Because Gangetic plains is more productive.

 

3. Hang on, can it just be that Gangetic plains is just bigger and thus override all of them ? No, because of Mahajanapadas situation: tiny but extremely powerful and wealthy kingdoms spanning 200-300  radius dotted the Gangetic plains but not Punjab. It skipped Punjab because again, not productive enough. Doesn’t have geo-strategic advantage of Asmaka or Gandhara( main outlet points to Uttarapatha and Daksinapatha) or strategic materials advantage like crap ton of war horses. 

 

The sixteen mahajanapada stage distinctly relegated Punjab and Sindh regions. They were not ‘included’ in the Kuru or Matsya kingdoms ( directly east of Punjab) or in Gandhara ( directly north and north-west).

 

The list all mention at least two of the followings three Punjab kingdoms ( most mention all three): Trigarta, Madra and Kekaya.

They are ALWAYS cast as the minor janapadas, along with Sindhu-Sauviras ( 1 kingdom most of the time with apparent intermittent breakup of the two into seperate kingdoms), along with Pundravardhana, lichchavi etc.

 

Multiple point of convergence on why Punjab was a minor player in history and all of them point at one root cause: far less fertility of Punjab plains to support a dense population like Gangetic plains.

The lush fields of Punjab that we see today are mostly a result of the canal colony schemes of the British which paved the way for the extension of agriculture. 

Punjab till as late as early 18th century had a huge tracts of forest land stretching from Ludhiana to the West. 

[Stradlater]

1 hour ago, vice said:

Stats from the 2011 Census.

 

Missed Assam, tbh it wasn’t in my radar but factor that lower Assam also has Muslims of Bengali origin.  So alright, the second highest state with the most Muslim percentage of its total population.  Do recall, J&K, is no longer a state :P.  Focal point still holds, the highest percentage of Muslims in the sub continent are of Bengali original with roughly estimates of around 160-180+ million.

1881 census results revealed Muslims forming around 49.5 % of the United Bengal.

Yep that was 140 years ago. 

[Stradlater]

But then again Muslims in the United British Punjab outnumbered both Hindus and Sikhs combined together so I guess that isn't exactly something to be proud of. 

[randomGuy]

2 cr. Haryana can easily control 20 cr. Pakistan if given a go-ahead.. Pakistanis will be speaking haryanvi in a few generations.... It has to do with culture - lath Mar language, lifestyle, Desi ghee ka khaan paan, interest in contact sports, camaraderie etc. Makes them perfect for army or for dominating other cultures.