Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 @zen make a combined XI of RSA-NZ /Ind-NZ /Eng-NZ /Pak-NZ. That too will give you an idea. For instance in a combined RSA-NZ XI I will pick Hadlee and Baz (wk), honestly can't even find a spot for Crowe. That shows NZ have historically lacked in quality. NZ players have more often than not struggled in SC, Aus, RSA...while RSA top picks were/are more all-conditions experts.
zen Posted February 20, 2020 Author Posted February 20, 2020 Just now, Gollum said: That is an indicator that RSA is a bloody tough match-up for NZ, in every era. As explained, that is because dynamics of regular teams are different. Also NZ never played SA in the 80s when guys like Hadlee were at their peak Quote WI/Aus is different, because max ATGs of WI were in mid-70s to mid-90s period and during that phase they dominated Aus. So even if Aus is well ahead on H2H, it won't matter because 90% WI players will be picked from a 15 years period. NZ however has never in its history competed with RSA. The point was that dynamics of AT teams are different. And no H2H exists b/w WI of 80s and Aus of 2000s. But on paper, once the great players across history are considered, the competitive factors change. So we have the WI pace quartet bowling to a team with Bradman in it, and Warne bowling to a line of Lara, Richards, and Sobers
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, zen said: As explained, that is because dynamics of regular teams are different. Also NZ never played SA in the 80s when guys like Hadlee were at their peak Lucky NZ, cos that 80s RSA team would have been almost at the strength of ATG WI
zen Posted February 20, 2020 Author Posted February 20, 2020 Just now, Gollum said: @zen make a combined XI of RSA-NZ /Ind-NZ /Eng-NZ /Pak-NZ. That too will give you an idea. For instance in a combined RSA-NZ XI I will pick Hadlee and Baz (wk), honestly can't even find a spot for Crowe. That shows NZ have historically lacked in quality. NZ players have more often than not struggled in SC, Aus, RSA...while RSA top picks were/are more all-conditions experts. I have placed SA at 3 above NZ. Where have I said that NZ > SA?
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 Just now, zen said: I have placed SA at 3 above NZ. Where have I said that NZ > SA? Ok then, so your OP question is settled?
zen Posted February 20, 2020 Author Posted February 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, Gollum said: Lucky NZ, cos that 80s RSA team would have been almost at the strength of ATG WI NZ-WI was a great match up in the 80s: View overall figures [change view] Primary team New Zealand or West Indies Opposition team New Zealand or West Indies Start of match date between 1 Jan 1980 and 31 Dec 1989 Totals in terms of batting team Ordered by runs scored (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 2 of 2 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Runs Ave RPO Inns HS LS West Indies 1980-1987 10 3 2 0 5 1.500 4819 33.23 2.97 20 511 100 New Zealand 1980-1987 10 2 3 0 5 0.666 4252 27.25 2.65 18 460 94 NZ mainly competed with a few good players vs. that great WI side
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) Coming to NZ vs Ind, how will they compete in India without spinners and poor support cast for Hadlee? Also their batsmen haven't been that great in our conditions. OTOH I see Ind competing in NZ, at least losing after some fight. Kapil, Bumrah, Shami may not have the creds of Hadlee/Bond/Boult but they aren't inept, with an ATG batting order they will ensure we draw a few and sneak out a couple of wins. Combined Ind/NZ team->struggling to pick more than 3 Kiwis. Edited February 20, 2020 by Gollum
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, zen said: NZ-WI was a great match up in the 80s: View overall figures [change view] Primary team New Zealand or West Indies Opposition team New Zealand or West Indies Start of match date between 1 Jan 1980 and 31 Dec 1989 Totals in terms of batting team Ordered by runs scored (descending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 2 of 2 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Team Span Mat Won Lost Tied Draw W/L Runs Ave RPO Inns HS LS West Indies 1980-1987 10 3 2 0 5 1.500 4819 33.23 2.97 20 511 100 New Zealand 1980-1987 10 2 3 0 5 0.666 4252 27.25 2.65 18 460 94 NZ mainly competed with a few good players vs. that great WI side 1980 series win was tainted with Shakoor Rana level umpiring by the hosts.
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 AT NZ XI batting makes me 2000s Ind/Aus and 2007-15 RSA had better batting units than that AT XI.
zen Posted February 20, 2020 Author Posted February 20, 2020 15 minutes ago, Gollum said: 1980 series win was tainted with Shakoor Rana level umpiring by the hosts. Leave that for Pakistani posters. I have seen some bad umpiring in Ind as well. For e.g. if not for umpires, Ind may not have won the Kol test vs. Aus, Kumble may not have picked up 10-er, and so on
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 1 minute ago, zen said: Leave that for Pakistani posters. I have seen some bad umpiring in Ind as well. For e.g. if not for umpires, Ind may not have won the Kol test vs. Aus, Kumble may not have picked up 10-er, and so on Ind umpires were inept, not biased. We would have won the famous tied test in Madras otherwise. And a test vs WI in the 60s or 70s don't remember....where play was called off because of bad light when we were 5 runs away from target. Talking about Kumble's 10fer (1 wrong decision?), check Ganguly's dismissal against Pak in the Chennai test.
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 WI-NZ 1980 umpiring is legendary, very infamous. Check what ex-players have to say, Jeremy Coney feels embarrassed every time that topic is brought up. Holding's frustration in that series
zen Posted February 20, 2020 Author Posted February 20, 2020 2 minutes ago, Gollum said: Ind umpires were inept, not biased. We would have won the famous tied test in Madras otherwise. And a test vs WI in the 60s or 70s don't remember....where play was called off because of bad light when we were 5 runs away from target. Talking about Kumble's 10fer (1 wrong decision?), check Ganguly's dismissal against Pak in the Chennai test. With home umpires, there is a bias (being inept for Ind is no excuse). In the 80s, it was the case. Though Pak took it to a different level (when combined with bottle caps) The point, I would not discount NZ win over WI, which is such a great side, in 80s
Jimmy Cliff Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 1 hour ago, Gollum said: Don't agree with the XIs you posted, esp that of RSA. But yeah Kiwis will get crushed, if not 0-6, probably 1-5, nothing better than that . NZ won't contest for 3rd place, forget about it. Three tiers WI/Aus RSA/Ind/Eng/Pak NZ/Lanka In an ideal scenario, where everything is fair: no chucking, no tampering, unbiased umpiring etc, Pak will drop down to 3rd tier. zen stop overrating NZ, historically they have sucked in Asian conditions, been the clients of the other 2 southern hemisphere teams both home and away, not enough quality and nowhere close to being an all conditions side. Eng a bit under-rated here. I'd only have Australia and WI ahead of them. Their ATG side is pretty gun and they can afford to leave out someone like Botham for instance. Hobbs Sutcliffe Hutton (c) Hammond Barrington Pietersen Knott + Larwood Trueman Laker Barnes This is a hell of a line-up that is way ahead of Ind/Pak IMO. Sooda and Gollum 2
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 3 minutes ago, Jimmy Cliff said: Eng a bit under-rated here. I'd only have Australia and WI ahead of them. Their ATG side is pretty gun and they can afford to leave out someone like Botham for instance. Hobbs Sutcliffe Hutton (c) Hammond Barrington Pietersen Knott + Larwood Trueman Laker Barnes This is a hell of a line-up that is way ahead of Ind/Pak IMO. Agree. I clumped them along with 3 others because too many players from bygone era. IMO cricket quality improved drastically starting from 70s. Jimmy Cliff 1
nevada Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 2 hours ago, Nikola said: Lol what is rabada doing in at 11? he is surely overrated as of now. Might prove me wrong in future but he will need to perform in all conditions before we start picking him in all time xi. Yup, guy was absolute dud in India. Totally flat, like he wanted to be somewhere else and couldn't be bothered to adjust to the unhelpful(to him, used to easy pickings at home) conditions.
zen Posted February 20, 2020 Author Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, nevada said: Yup, guy was absolute dud in India. Totally flat, like he wanted to be somewhere else and couldn't be bothered to adjust to the unhelpful(to him, used to easy pickings at home) conditions. Note that this is not a world AT11 but SA's. People even consider players who have not even played in or against India .... the selection would also depend upon the variety needed/desired in a 11 PS Rabada has a fantastic SR to compliment bowlers like Steyn and Donald: View overall figures [change view] Primary team South Africa Opposition team Australia or England or India or New Zealand or Pakistan or South Africa or Sri Lanka or West Indies Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 100 and bowling average less than or equal to 26 Ordered by bowling strike rate (ascending) Page 1 of 1 Showing 1 - 7 of 7 First Previous Next Last Return to query menu Cleared query menu Overall figures Player Span Mat Inns Balls Runs Wkts BBI BBM Ave Econ SR 5 10 K Rabada 2015-2020 40 72 7579 4319 179 7/112 13/144 24.12 3.41 42.3 7 3 DW Steyn 2004-2019 86 159 17426 9507 403 7/51 11/60 23.59 3.27 43.2 24 5 AA Donald 1992-2002 69 123 14906 7113 316 7/84 12/139 22.50 2.86 47.1 19 2 VD Philander 2011-2020 60 113 10935 4828 219 6/21 10/102 22.04 2.64 49.9 13 2 PM Pollock 1961-1970 28 52 6522 2806 116 6/38 10/87 24.18 2.58 56.2 9 1 SM Pollock 1995-2008 100 186 22964 9238 389 7/87 10/147 23.74 2.41 59.0 15 1 NAT Adcock 1953-1962 26 46 6391 2195 104 6/43 8/87 21.10 2.06 61.4 5 0 Edited February 20, 2020 by zen
zen Posted February 20, 2020 Author Posted February 20, 2020 3 hours ago, Gollum said: Combined Ind/NZ team->struggling to pick more than 3 Kiwis. If Hadlee were an Indian, he could have been seen as our greatest cricketer .... Gave a shot at a combined 11, which can take a lot of Kiwis: Gavaskar Sehwag Williamson Tendulkar Crowe (c) Kohli Baz Hadlee Bond Boult or Bumrah Chandra or Gupte
Gollum Posted February 20, 2020 Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, zen said: If Hadlee were an Indian, he could have been seen as our greatest cricketer .... Gave a shot at a combined 11, which can take a lot of Kiwis: Gavaskar Sehwag Williamson Tendulkar Crowe (c) Kohli Baz Hadlee Bond Boult or Bumrah Chandra or Gupte Tell me it was difficult to fit in so many Kiwis , looks like you have picked for SENA conditions. I'd pick Dravid over Kane, latter has under-performed in many major away countries. Only 4 bowling options in your side, so I would go with Kapil. My XI will be: SC Viru Sunny Pujara Sachin Kohli Dhoni (better keeper against spin) Kapil Jadeja Hadlee Ashwin Kumble Just one In SENA Sunny Crowe Dravid Sachin Kohli Baz Kapil Hadlee Bond Bumrah/Boult...former has higher ceiling IMO Chandra 4-5 Edited February 20, 2020 by Gollum Nikola 1
zen Posted February 20, 2020 Author Posted February 20, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Gollum said: Tell me it was difficult to fit in so many Kiwis , looks like you have picked for SENA conditions. I'd pick Dravid over Kane, latter has under-performed in many major away countries. Only 4 bowling options in your side, so I would go with Kapil. My XI will be: SC Viru Sunny Pujara Sachin Kohli Dhoni (better keeper against spin) Kapil Jadeja Hadlee Ashwin Kumble Just one In SENA Sunny Crowe Dravid Sachin Kohli Baz Kapil Hadlee Bond Bumrah/Boult...former has higher ceiling IMO Chandra 4-5 I picked for sporting conditions w/ 5 from each team, along with Bumrah or Boult for 11th spot .... That you ignored so many Kiwi players based on "certain" conditions only highlights the limitations of Ind players, which is why I rate Ind, Pak and Eng as mostly home conditions teams We are not taking about which country has a larger pool of cricketers but its best 11, which once chosen plays a series. So if you are picking 3 spinners, you are stuck with that in SENA too. If you have assumed 3 spinners conditions in SC, then it would be a 3-4 pacer condition in SENA .... To avoid such scenarios, the assumption is sporting conditions (in this hypothetical and fair world of AT teams) Also note that some of the NZ players can be more effective than Indian players. For e.g. Hadlee + Bond can = our entire pace attack. Then it can add Boult-Vettori, who is used to bowling in various conditions, as well. While Indian spinners are by and large ineffective unless they can access certain conditions. Edited February 20, 2020 by zen
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