Footage : Kapil Dev's EPIC 129 v SA at Port Elizabeth 1992 + Pravin amre 103 in durban

[maniac]

So @zen Kapil was an average cricketer, Sachin was a selfish player, that’s probably Indias no 1 and no 2 cricketer of all time  but Pandya is an ATG already 

[zen]

2 hours ago, maniac said:

So @zen Kapil was an average cricketer, Sachin was a selfish player, that’s probably Indias no 1 and no 2 cricketer of all time  but Pandya is an ATG already 

I have not said that they are not ATG for Ind (how they played their game, how consistent they were, where they stood among their peers, where they rank, etc., can be open to discussion)

 

 

Below is bowling performance of pace bowlers on the 1986 tour of Eng, which Ind won:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team England

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1986 and 1 Jan 1987

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
S Madan Lal	1	2	20.5	5	48	3	3/18	3/48	16.00	2.30	41.6	0	0
C Sharma	2	4	102.3	20	300	16	6/58	10/188	18.75	2.92	38.4	2	1
RMH Binny	3	6	87.2	11	251	12	5/40	7/58	20.91	2.87	43.6	1	0
N Kapil Dev	3	6	128.2	36	306	10	4/52	5/119	30.60	2.38	77.0	0	0

 

Many of the guys on the list above may not be great bowlers, but they are helping the team's cause 

 

 

Below in Pakistan (then Kapil went on to play till 1994), where Ind drew:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Pakistan

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1989 and 1 Jan 1990

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
V Razdan	2	2	40.0	6	141	5	5/79	5/79	28.20	3.52	48.0	1	0
N Kapil Dev	4	5	168.4	50	378	12	4/69	7/151	31.50	2.24	84.3	0	0
M Prabhakar	4	5	181.2	26	542	16	6/132	6/132	33.87	2.98	68.0	2	0

 

Talking about pace bowlers in Pak - Razdan is not a big name (and probably never played another series) but he did come in to pick up a 5-er to help the team in his capacity. Prabhakar is there too. In terms of bowling impact, Kapil is as good or as bad as others. 

 

 

While we can crib over lack of support for Kapil, but even when he had support, he has not been consistent (again it does not mean that he has never been good in any series)  

 

 

Many folks may like to imagine that Kapil was a Richard Hadlee with the ball and a Viv Richards with the bat. My point is that if he were, his number would be closer to one of those in at least one department respectively. Then the excuses flow about bowling without support (but even when he had support, he has not been consistent. And as if a better bowler could not do better in similar conditions) and, of course, if his bowling is not setting the game on fire, his batting should relatively more (as he is called an AR). Because his performances are relatively weak, we go over those 1 in 10 performances to console ourselves   

Edited August 16, 2020 by zen

[zen]

PS Another example is SL, a new test team in 80s, in 1985, where Ind lost:  

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Sri Lanka

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1980 and 31 Dec 1989

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
C Sharma	3	6	109.0	12	383	14	5/118	6/173	27.35	3.51	46.7	1	0
N Kapil Dev	3	6	129.4	30	372	11	3/74	5/110	33.81	2.86	70.7	0	0

 

 

To make Kapil look better, we may want to make fun of likes of Sharma, Binny, Prabhakar, etc. by classifying them as a lack of support but if Kapil is not able to bowl consistently better than them what does it say about him. In 85 SL, 86 Eng, and 89 Pak, he has the worst SR among pace bowlers and 0 5-ers (Sharma has 3, Prabhakar 2, & Binny and Razdan 1 each). Even Chetan Sharma can complain about a lack of support as Kapil isn't setting the ground on fire.  

 

 

Dilip Vengsarkar is another player from Kapil's era. He played in 116 tests iirc. Was brilliant at home and had a few memorable away performances (such as 3 100s at Lords). If we have to draw parallels, among great ARs across the globe, Kapil is probably like what a Vengsarkar would be among batsmen he is being grouped with. Among Ind players, they are of course greats and therefore discussed. Both players had good fighting qualities if I am not wrong.  

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by zen

[maniac]

5 hours ago, zen said:

I have not said that they are not ATG for Ind (how they played their game, how consistent they were, where they stood among their peers, where they rank, etc., can be open to discussion)

 

 

Below is bowling performance of pace bowlers on the 1986 tour of Eng, which Ind won:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team England

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1986 and 1 Jan 1987

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

Page 1 of 1

Showing 1 - 4 of 4

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Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
S Madan Lal	1	2	20.5	5	48	3	3/18	3/48	16.00	2.30	41.6	0	0
C Sharma	2	4	102.3	20	300	16	6/58	10/188	18.75	2.92	38.4	2	1
RMH Binny	3	6	87.2	11	251	12	5/40	7/58	20.91	2.87	43.6	1	0
N Kapil Dev	3	6	128.2	36	306	10	4/52	5/119	30.60	2.38	77.0	0	0

 

Many of the guys on the list above may not be great bowlers, but they are helping the team's cause 

 

 

Below in Pakistan (then Kapil went on to play till 1994), where Ind drew:

 

View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Pakistan

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1989 and 1 Jan 1990

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Showing 1 - 3 of 3

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Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
V Razdan	2	2	40.0	6	141	5	5/79	5/79	28.20	3.52	48.0	1	0
N Kapil Dev	4	5	168.4	50	378	12	4/69	7/151	31.50	2.24	84.3	0	0
M Prabhakar	4	5	181.2	26	542	16	6/132	6/132	33.87	2.98	68.0	2	0

 

Talking about pace bowlers in Pak - Razdan is not a big name (and probably never played another series) but he did come in to pick up a 5-er to help the team in his capacity. Prabhakar is there too. In terms of bowling impact, Kapil is as good or as bad as others. 

 

 

While we can crib over lack of support for Kapil, but even when he had support, he has not been consistent (again it does not mean that he has never been good in any series)  

 

 

Many folks may like to imagine that Kapil was a Richard Hadlee with the ball and a Viv Richards with the bat. My point is that if he were, his number would be closer to one of those in at least one department respectively. Then the excuses flow about bowling without support (but even when he had support, he has not been consistent. And as if a better bowler could not do better in similar conditions) and, of course, if his bowling is not setting the game on fire, his batting should relatively more (as he is called an AR). Because his performances are relatively weak, we go over those 1 in 10 performances to console ourselves   

You cannot rate  down someone because his support bowlers might have performed better give or take.

 

When Donald-Pollock played together, Pollock was getting more wickets because opponents would play Donald out. Later same thing happened with Pollck-Ntini and then with Ntini-Steyn and so on and so forth. 
 

You think guys like Ashwin or Kumble are bad bowlers or do batsmen play them like easy pickings or do you think It is opposition does all the home work on them?

 

Now you might say what about Warne-Murali? No one rateS Kumble over them even the ones who call Murali w chucker but still doesn’t mean Kumble was a poor bowler or not an ATG by any stretch of an imagination.

[zen]

1 hour ago, maniac said:

You cannot rate  down someone because his support bowlers might have performed better give or take.

 

When Donald-Pollock played together, Pollock was getting more wickets because opponents would play Donald out. Later same thing happened with Pollck-Ntini and then with Ntini-Steyn and so on and so forth. 
 

You think guys like Ashwin or Kumble are bad bowlers or do batsmen play them like easy pickings or do you think It is opposition does all the home work on them?

 

Now you might say what about Warne-Murali? No one rateS Kumble over them even the ones who call Murali w chucker but still doesn’t mean Kumble was a poor bowler or not an ATG by any stretch of an imagination.

The point was in relation to Kapil #s and the impact of his support as if Kapil was supporting others consistently or doing well consistently when he had support 

 

I rate Kapil for what he is by weighing both +ves and -ves as well as in relation to others.  Of course, having -ves does not imply he does not have +ves, and vice versa

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

13 hours ago, zen said:

The point was in relation to Kapil #s and the impact of his support as if Kapil was supporting others consistently or doing well consistently when he had support 

 

I rate Kapil for what he is by weighing both +ves and -ves as well as in relation to others.  Of course, having -ves does not imply he does not have +ves, and vice versa

 

 

you are filtering  out some stats in isolation which does not tell the whole picture.  The end average of  29.64 of Kapil where attained against 3  adversities namely longevity,heavy work load  &  lack of support .

For instance Kapil averaged 28.87 after first 21000 balls (Imran bowled only 19458 balls in his career). See how longevity alone affected his end avg:

Like wise is the case with  other 2 factors also.

Edited August 17, 2020 by rtmohanlal

[zen]

5 hours ago, rtmohanlal said:

you are filtering  out some stats in isolation which does not tell the whole picture.  The end average of  29.64 of Kapil where attained against 3  adversities namely longevity,heavy work load  &  lack of support .

For instance Kapil averaged 28.87 after first 21000 balls (Imran bowled only 19458 balls in his career). See how longevity alone affected his end avg:

Like wise is the case with  other 2 factors also.

I have explained the below to you before in one way or the other: 

 

Bowler A: 30 balls in 20 innings = 600 balls

Bowler B: 36 balls in 15 innings = 540 balls

A bowled 600  balls and B bowled “only” 540 balls does not show the work load

 

Another thing that I have explained to you is ages. Guys like Imran and Hadlee were older than Kapil. Imran retired at the age of 40-41 (even came back from retirement and injuries - his challenges), Hadlee retired at the age of 39-40 (lone warrior of NZ).  While Kapil could only last till 35-36 (when many feel he should have retired even earlier)

The adversities that you listed are more like excuses (as shown by “support” data on some of the key tours as well and that Kapil could not do much consistently despite the support).
 

But if we are looking for excuses how about - Kapil was so dedicated that he practised night and day, while Imran and Hadlee used to sleep at night.  Imran even found time for affairs instead of practising.
 

This meant that Kapil could not bowl with full intensity all the time, while others had the luxury of remaining fresh. If Kapil slept at night too, his numbers could have been a lot better (may be close to Marshall’s). If Kapil would have slept, he would have bowled 31xxx balls (never mind what he did during those balls including going through the motions), while Imran bowled only 19xxx balls
 

In fact, the idea of bowling machine was inspired by watching Kapil bowl tirelessly in matches, nets, at night, in his room, at the dinning table, and so on. In deserts, on mountains, on water, underwater, you name it .... As they say - Kapil ka jawab nahin. But since Kapil is humble (esp. unlike Imran), he would say - “nahin, Palmolive da jawab nahin”

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, zen said:

I have explained the below to you before in one way or the other: 

 

Bowler A: 30 balls in 20 innings = 600 balls

Bowler B: 36 balls in 15 innings = 540 balls

A bowled 600  balls and B bowled “only” 540 balls does not show the work load

 

Another thing that I have explained to you is ages. Guys like Imran and Hadlee were older than Kapil. Imran retired at the age of 40-41 (even came back from retirement and injuries - his challenges), Hadlee retired at the age of 39-40 (lone warrior of NZ).  While Kapil could only last till 35-36 (when many feel he should have retired even earlier)

The adversaries that you listed are more like excuses (as shown by “support” data on some of the key tours as well and that Kapil could not do much consistently despite the support).
 

But if we are looking for excuses how about - Kapil was so dedicated that he practised night and day, while Imran and Hadlee used to sleep at night.  Imran even found time for affairs instead of practising.
 

This meant that Kapil could not bowl with full intensity all the time, while others had the luxury of remaining fresh. If Kapil slept at night too, his numbers could have been a lot better (may be close to Marshall’s). If Kapil would have slept, he would have bowled 31xxx balls (never mind what he did during those balls including going through the motions), while Imran bowled only 19xxx balls
 

In fact, the idea of bowling machine was inspired by watching Kapil bowl tirelessly in matches, nets, at night, in his room, at the dinning table, and so on. In deserts, on mountains, on water, underwater, you name it .... As they say - Kapil ka jawab nahin. But since Kapil is humble (esp. unlike Imran), he would say - “nahin, Palmolive da jawab nahin”

 

 

again , let me put forward the exact word density . Taking Kapil  & Botham here.

 

Work density of Botham is 21815 balls/14.897 years =1464.389 balls/year.

Work density of Kapil  is 27740 balls/15.436 years = 1797.098 balls/year.

Work densiy of Kapil  in first 21823 balls is 21823/11.308 years = 1929.873 balls/year.

 

Means 1929.873-1464.389= 465.484.So every year Kapil had to bowl 465.484/1464.389 = 31.79% more the no: of balls Botham had to bowl till his first 21823 balls. So a whopping 31.79% more  balls per year  when compared to Botham .

 

Now support bowling strength:

 

TRCTBI - total runs conceded,the bowler included
TWTTBI - total wickets taken,the bowler included
RCBTB -  runs conceeded by the bowler
WTBTB -  wickets taken by the bowler
TRCTBE - total runs conceded,the bowler excluded (support bowling strength)
TWTTBE - total wickets taken,the bowler excluded (support bowling strength)

 

bowler  TRCTBI  TWTTBI avg:   RCBTB WTBTB  avg:  TRCTBE TWTTBE avg:

Botham 44647  1454   30.70  10878 383     28.40  33769 1071     31.53 //full career stats of Botham

kapil     61403   1730   35.49  12867 434     29.64  48536 1296     37.45 //full career stats of Kapil

kapil     47944   1326   36.15  10538 362     29.11  37406   964     38.80 //till feb 6 90 where he bowled only 21823 balls(Botham 21815 balls in entire career)

 

From the above data, it is crystal clear as to the convincingly large difference between Kapil & Botham w.r.t support bowling unit strength.In his first 21823 balls(almost similar to Botham's 21815) where he averaged 29.11,Kapil's support bowling  unit's combined avg: was only 38.8.For Botham the respective value was only 31.53. See the big difference of 38.8 - 31.53 = 7.27. In other words when ever Kapil played a test till he bowled his first 21823 balls, he bowled along with basically 3 fellow bowlers in general(assuming the team combination is 6 batsmen + 4 bowlers in general) who avg:ed 38.8 each, where as for Botham it was only 31.53 !!!

 

W.R.T Imran, he bowled his 19458 balls in a long period of 21 years by taking  breaks as and when  required.  And he bowled only 588 balls starting  from 1990 onwards, i mean after 37 years &  2 months.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by rtmohanlal

[zen]

1 hour ago, rtmohanlal said:

again , let me put forward the exact word density . Taking Kapil  & Botham here.

 

Work density of Botham is 21815 balls/14.897 years =1464.389 balls/year.

Work density of Kapil  is 27740 balls/15.436 years = 1797.098 balls/year.

Work densiy of Kapil  in first 21823 balls is 21823/11.308 years = 1929.873 balls/year.

 

Means 1929.873-1464.389= 465.484.So every year Kapil had to bowl 465.484/1464.389 = 31.79% more the no: of balls Botham had to bowl till his first 21823 balls. So a whopping 31.79% more  balls per year  when compared to Botham .

 

Now support bowling strength:

 

TRCTBI - total runs conceded,the bowler included
TWTTBI - total wickets taken,the bowler included
RCBTB -  runs conceeded by the bowler
WTBTB -  wickets taken by the bowler
TRCTBE - total runs conceded,the bowler excluded (support bowling strength)
TWTTBE - total wickets taken,the bowler excluded (support bowling strength)

 

bowler  TRCTBI  TWTTBI avg:   RCBTB WTBTB  avg:  TRCTBE TWTTBE avg:

Botham 44647  1454   30.70  10878 383     28.40  33769 1071     31.53 //full career stats of Botham

kapil     61403   1730   35.49  12867 434     29.64  48536 1296     37.45 //full career stats of Kapil

kapil     47944   1326   36.15  10538 362     29.11  37406   964     38.80 //till feb 6 90 where he bowled only 21823 balls(Botham 21815 balls in entire career)

 

From the above data, it is crystal clear as to the convincingly large difference between Kapil & Botham w.r.t support bowling unit strength.
In his first 21823 balls(almost similar to Botham's 21815) where he averaged 29.11,Kapil's support bowling  unit's combined avg: was only 38.8.For
Botham the respective value was only 31.53. See the big difference of 38.8 - 31.53 = 7.27. In other words when ever Kapil played a test till he
bowled his first 21823 balls, he bowled along with basically 3 fellow bowlers in general(assuming the team combination is 6 batsmen + 4 bowlers in
general) who avg:ed 38.8 each, where as for Botham it was only 31.53 !!!

 

W.R.T Imran, he bowled his 19458 balls in a long period of 21 years by taking  breaks as and when  required.  And he bowled only 588 balls starting  from 1990 onwards, i mean after 37 years &  2 months.

 

 

What a great bowling machine Kapil was! I do not know what is the use of bowling machines when we have Kapil  

Because Kapil bowled like a bowling machine, poor guy could not pick up more wkts despite bowling more balls. For convenience, we can ignore the data below:

 

<spoiler>

• Hadlee 146 balls per inning; balls per wkt 51
• Imran 137 balls per inning; balls per wkt 54
• Botham 130 balls per inning; balls per wkt 57
• Kapil 122 balls per inning; balls per wkt 64 (not only bowled less, but also picked up fewer wkts)

</spoiler>

 

This also explains why Kapil could not outperform likes of Chetan Sharma, Madan Lal, Binny, etc., on those tours to SL, Eng and Pak. Those bowlers simply relaxed and bowled much less. May have even attended parties. While Kapil was bowling and bowling and bowling even before and after the series, and of course in the series

 

I guess, even if Hadlee or Marshall had played for India, they could not have outperformed Sharma, Lal, Binny, etc., on those tours, because Kapil did not 

 

“Palmolive da jawab nahin” .... now use many of those excuses oops I mean adversities to show Kumble is better than Warne for e.g  

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, zen said:

What a great bowling machine Kapil was! I do not know what is the use of bowling machines when we have Kapil  

Because Kapil bowled like a bowling machine, poor guy could not pick up more wkts despite bowling more balls. For convenience, we can ignore the data below:

 

<spoiler>

• Hadlee 146 balls per inning; balls per wkt 51
• Imran 137 balls per inning; balls per wkt 54
• Botham 130 balls per inning; balls per wkt 57
• Kapil 122 balls per inning; balls per wkt 64 (not only bowled less, but also picked up fewer wkts)

</spoiler>

 

This also explains why Kapil could not outperform likes of Chetan Sharma, Madan Lal, Binny, etc., on those tours to SL, Eng and Pak. Those bowlers simply relaxed and bowled much less. May have even attended parties. While Kapil was bowling and bowling and bowling even before and after the series, and of course in the series

 

I guess, even if Hadlee or Marshall had played for India, they could not have outperformed Sharma, Lal, Binny, etc., on those tours, because Kapil did not 

 

“Palmolive da jawab nahin” .... now use many of those excuses oops I mean adversities to show Kumble is better than Warne for e.g  

 

 

you are simply hanging on to the no: of ball bowled/inns as work density. That alone is not the matter. All rounders, especially fast/ medium bowling ones need adequate breaks between series to  be  at their best . Kapil often played 3  to even 4  series on the trot.That is why his balls/year is so high.

Take Imran . he  played several series as  batsman alone or bowled very few.For instance , after his knee injury, he took complete rest as a bowler  for almost 3 years. These type of breaks between series enabled  him to be at his very best  series after series.

 

similar is the case with Botham .During Botham's period ENG played about 160 tests,Botham only played in 103 of them.See how many series he skipped  regularly especially in  the 2nd half of his career where he was a pale shadow of himself .But in Kapil's case there  was no such reprise.He played all tests baring one test. What not, he couldn't choose & skip series even  immediately after   knee injury & surgery.

 

That was  the whole point when I was talking about work density, not ball/inns .

 

[zen]

53 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

you are simply hanging on to the no: of ball bowled/inns as work density. That alone is not the matter. All rounders, especially fast/ medium bowling ones need adequate breaks between series to  be  at their best . Kapil often played 3  to even 4  series on the trot.That is why his balls/year is so high.

Take Imran . he  played several series as  batsman alone or bowled very few.For instance , after his knee injury, he took complete rest as a bowler  for almost 3 years. These type of breaks between series enabled  him to be at his very best  series after series.

 

similar is the case with Botham .During Botham's period ENG played about 160 tests,Botham only played in 103 of them.See how many series he skipped  regularly especially in  the 2nd half of his career where he was a pale shadow of himself .But in Kapil's case there  was no such reprise.He played all tests baring one test. What not, he couldn't choose & skip series even  immediately after   knee injury & surgery.

 

That was  the whole point when I was talking about work density, not ball/inns .

You may also choose to believe that if Kapil had taken more breaks and did not bowl like a bowling machine, he would have been as good as Marshall.  

 

Who cares if these guys are actually averaging more balls/inning and have better SRs. Who cares if Imran Khan is making a comeback after a serious injury, at the end of the day, it was just a means to get some rest. Who cares if Hadlee still looked good at age 40 w/ people asking him to come back from retirement, while Kapil lost it around early 30s, longevity is in just playing whether you perform or not, and so on. After all cricket field is another park at the end of the day.

 

The world had put a gun on Kapil's head asking him to play almost everything, while giving him the license to be ordinary when it pleased. So how can we blame poor Kapil, it must be some external factor. Poor guy was also booed in the ODI vs WI in 1994 so he probably decided to quit and not serve India. If not for that who knows he would have played till the 1996 WC and given you even more balls (no pun intended) v Hadlee/Imran/Botham's xxxxx! 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by zen

[coffee_rules]

scorecard readers and stasguru regurgitators don't know about 1984 surgery Kapil had and his stats pre-84 and post-84 are in contrast. He was half the bowler he was before 1984. He bowled well in 1986 Aus and also in 1992 and redeemed his greatness tag. But why spoil their enthu to down one of India's greats comparing them to trundlers abroad. 

 

62 tests - 247w - 27.70  - 54SR 18 5fers 2 10fers

69 -  187w - 32.20 - 77SR 5 5fers 0 10fers

 

He madeup with batting in the later half. Look at the difference in SR 

[zen]

In Zim, a relative new entrant to test cricket, where Ind drew the series    View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Zimbabwe

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 1993

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

Ordered by bowling average (ascending)

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Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Prabhakar	1	2	59.0	19	88	4	3/66	4/88	22.00	1.49	88.5	0	0
N Kapil Dev	1	2	54.0	17	93	3	2/22	3/93	31.00	1.72	108.0	0	0
J Srinath	1	2	44.0	13	104	3	3/89	3/104	34.66	2.36	88.0	0	0

Again the worst SR in Zim 

 

If he played with a stronger attack, he could have even had worse numbers as the other team would have relatively better bowlers to worry about ....  

 

 

Inconsistent player esp. w/ such a level of experience 

 

 

PS Kapil's overseas record

 

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1978-1994	131	5248	163	31.05	8	434	9/83	29.64	23	64	0	1.40	Profile
filtered	1978-1994	66	2438	129	26.21	3	215	8/85	32.85	12	24	0	-6.64

 

 

Even in his "so called" better phase:

 

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1978-1994	131	5248	163	31.05	8	434	9/83	29.64	23	64	0	1.40	Profile
filtered	1978-1983	27	1010	100*	25.25	1	96	8/85	33.36	7	7	0	-8.11

 

^ no amount of excuses is going to make him a 25 or less avg bowler (to have a positive batting avg -bowling avg difference)

 

 

Next (or whatever) phase 

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1978-1994	131	5248	163	31.05	8	434	9/83	29.64	23	64	0	1.40	Profile
filtered	1984-1994	39	1428	129	26.94	2	119	8/106	32.44	5	17	0	-5.50

 

 

 

If his batting avg were like his bowling avg and vice versa, it would have been relatively more interesting! 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by zen

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, zen said:

In Zim, a relative new entrant to test cricket, where Ind drew the series    View overall figures [change view]

Primary team India

Opposition team Zimbabwe

Home or away away (home of opposition)

Start of match date between 1 Jan 1990 and 1 Jan 1993

Type of bowler (by style) pace bowler

Qualifications wickets taken greater than or equal to 3

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Showing 1 - 3 of 3

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Overall figures

Player	Mat	Inns	Overs	Mdns	Runs	Wkts	BBI	BBM	Ave	Econ	SR	5	10
M Prabhakar	1	2	59.0	19	88	4	3/66	4/88	22.00	1.49	88.5	0	0
N Kapil Dev	1	2	54.0	17	93	3	2/22	3/93	31.00	1.72	108.0	0	0
J Srinath	1	2	44.0	13	104	3	3/89	3/104	34.66	2.36	88.0	0	0

Again the worst SR in Zim 

 

If he played with a stronger attack, he could have even had worse numbers as the other team would have relatively better bowlers to worry about ....  

 

 

Inconsistent player esp. w/ such a level of experience 

 

 

PS Kapil's overseas record

 

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1978-1994	131	5248	163	31.05	8	434	9/83	29.64	23	64	0	1.40	Profile
filtered	1978-1994	66	2438	129	26.21	3	215	8/85	32.85	12	24	0	-6.64

 

 

Even in his "so called" better" phase:

 

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1978-1994	131	5248	163	31.05	8	434	9/83	29.64	23	64	0	1.40	Profile
filtered	1978-1983	27	1010	100*	25.25	1	96	8/85	33.36	7	7	0	-8.11

 

^ no amount of excuses is going to make him a 25 or less avg bowler (to have a positive batting avg -bowling avg difference)

 

 

Next (or whatever) phase 

Records type all-round analysis [change type]

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Start of match date greater than or equal to 1 Jan 1984

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Career averages

	Span	Mat	Runs	HS	Bat Av	100	Wkts	BBI	Bowl Av	5	Ct	St	Ave Diff
unfiltered	1978-1994	131	5248	163	31.05	8	434	9/83	29.64	23	64	0	1.40	Profile
filtered	1984-1994	39	1428	129	26.94	2	119	8/106	32.44	5	17	0	-5.50

 

again, what you are doing is tracing  out stats from here and there  which makes no sense what so ever. Kapil need to be evaluated as  a bowler who bowled so many balls with in a short period of time in comparison with his fellow all rounders.He could have played just as  a batsman or skipped  entire series or bowled very few balls based on  whether conditions suited him or not  in several series just as Imran & Botham did.But Kapil did not do that.

[zen]

On 8/18/2020 at 12:35 PM, rtmohanlal said:

again, what you are doing is tracing  out stats from here and there  which makes no sense what so ever. Kapil need to be evaluated as  a bowler who bowled so many balls with in a short period of time in comparison with his fellow all rounders.He could have played just as  a batsman or skipped  entire series or bowled very few balls based on  whether conditions suited him or not  in several series just as Imran & Botham did.But Kapil did not do that.

If Kapil bowls esp. as a spearhead who is tasked with making a difference with the new ball, he gets judged. For good bowlers, more bowls = more opportunities to pick up wkts (he has bowled less bowls per inning and also has the worst SR among the "4" as already discussed). Also, Kapil bowled medium pace so he can bowl more. Now, if he is deliberating under performing or bowling within himself to play more (taking his place for granted), he has only himself to blame. 

 

Overseas, if Kapil's batting avg was like his bowling avg, and bowling avg like his batting avg, it would mean something. Below is how I look at Kapil's career:  

 

"Dilip Vengsarkar is another player from Kapil's era. He played in 116 tests iirc. Was brilliant at home and had a few memorable away performances (such as 3 100s at Lords). If we have to draw parallels, among great ARs across the globe, Kapil is probably like what a Vengsarkar would be among batsmen he is being grouped with. Among Ind players, they are of course greats and therefore discussed. Both players had good fighting qualities if I am not wrong."  

 

Edited August 21, 2020 by zen

[Rightarmfast]

22 minutes ago, zen said:

If Kapil bowls esp. as a spearhead who is tasked with making a difference with the new ball, he gets judged. For good bowlers, more bowls = more opportunities to pick up wkts. Also, Kapil bowled medium pace so he can bowl more. 

 

Overseas, if Kapil's batting avg was like is bowling avg, and bowling avg like is batting avg, it would mean something. Below is how I look at Kapil's career:  

 

"Dilip Vengsarkar is another player from Kapil's era. He played in 116 tests iirc. Was brilliant at home and had a few memorable away performances (such as 3 100s at Lords). If we have to draw parallels, among great ARs across the globe, Kapil is probably like what a Vengsarkar would be among batsmen he is being grouped with. Among Ind players, they are of course greats and therefore discussed. Both players had good fighting qualities if I am not wrong."  

 

I have not even got started on Kapil. 

 

 

Clearly, you have not watched Kapil bowling. Your cherry pickings wont do the trick. If we want to have a decent conversation/ debate, then let's not jump goalposts. 

If your contention is Roger Binny and Chetan Sharma, Binny played hardly 8 yrs of international cricket. Chetan sharma played for about 5-6 yrs. Kapil played a good 16 yrs of international cricket, throughout carrying the medium pace bowling almost singlehandedly. Despite playing for 16 good years, and bowling in subcontinent, Kapil ended with average below 30! That itself shows the consistency. 

 

Roger Binny played just one series, and a total of 3 matches in England. He performed well. Doesnt make Kapil any lesser. The only saving grace in Roger Binny's career are the records from English tour and against Srilanka ( worse than Afghanistan of today, as a team ).

 

Chetan Sharma played just 2 tests in England, the same series actually and he performed well. For once, Kapil got a breather with these 2 bowlers. Chetan Sharma was mostly garbage against other teams, with the exception of Sri Lanka. 

And you want to compare these 2 bowlers to Kapil? 

 

When you speak about other allrounders, lets not forget that Pakistan of those times was a strong team. Miandad, Abbas, Imran, Qadir etc etc. And they had very able support fast medium bowlers. Same with English team. 

 

How do you discount the heavy burden of responsibility on Kapil's and Gavaskar's shoulders for carrying the team through? Is there a metric to calculate the sheer pressure? Imran and Botham did not face the pressure, with the exception of Hadlee who was truly a legend. 

 

One would be a fool to think players like Heath Streak, Chris Cairns, Neil Johnson and the likes were just average bowlers, They were pretty good, but lacked the support from the other end. Just like Kapil did. 

 

Reading stats online and watching live performances are not the same thing. Anybody can read something on internet, twist data to suit the agenda and come up with an argument. I suggest you stick to Hardik Pandya! 

[rtmohanlal]

1 hour ago, zen said:

If Kapil bowls esp. as a spearhead, he gets judged. For good bowlers, more bowls = more opportunities to pick up wkts. Overseas, if Kapil's batting avg was like is bowling avg, and bowling avg like is batting avg, it would mean something. Below is how I look at Kapil's career:  

 

"Dilip Vengsarkar is another player from Kapil's era. He played in 116 tests iirc. Was brilliant at home and had a few memorable away performances (such as 3 100s at Lords). If we have to draw parallels, among great ARs across the globe, Kapil is probably like what a Vengsarkar would be among batsmen he is being grouped with. Among Ind players, they are of course greats and therefore discussed. Both players had good fighting qualities if I am not wrong."  

 

I have not even really got started on Kapil. 

 

 

you can  hand pick  data from here and there or compare him with who ever you may want.

 

Let me clarify it with  another stats for once and all. 

 

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/9163.html?class=1;spanmin1=28+aug+1980;spanval1=span;template=results;type=bowling

 

the above is Botham's bowling career data for long 12 years(2nd part). Means he averaged a mere  34.27  for 80% of his career. Means his work density is  14801 balls/12 years =  1233 balls/ year. So in the first part of mere 3 years(20% of his career) he bowled 7014 balls with work density  of

7014/3 = 2338 balls/year.

 

In this first part of 3 years his bowling partners were Willis &  Underwood. What Botham could achieve was  he bowled at a whopping 2338/1233*100 = 190% work density in his first 3 years  along with 2 ATG bowlers  and reap maximum benefit. In the next 12 years majority period,

despite such comparatively  smaller  work density  his  returns were very moderate with a 34.27 avg:

 

Now Kapil bowled a whopping 27740 balls in career. Imagine a situation where Botham bowled  5925 balls more  in this 12 year period where he averaged a mere  34.27  along with the '7.27 worser support bowling strength Kapil had'. Sure his average would have gone much worser.

 

Conversely,  had Kapil bowled only 21815 balls in his entire career  with same work density  as that of Botham and with the same bowling support strength Botham enjoyed he would have ended up with a much better average. Infact , I rate Kapil a 26.75 averaging bowler when compared to Botham in all possibilities.

 

We may agree to disagree

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by rtmohanlal

[zen]

5 hours ago, Rightarmfast said:

Clearly, you have not watched Kapil bowling. Your cherry pickings wont do the trick. If we want to have a decent conversation/ debate, then let's not jump goalposts. 

 

Reading stats online and watching live performances are not the same thing. Anybody can read something on internet, twist data to suit the agenda and come up with an argument. I suggest you stick to Hardik Pandya! 

 

Too many unnecessary comments /assumptions ^

 

1st, I have watched Kapil bowl. I do not think it is a criteria (see point #3). 

 

2nd, I do not think you are qualified to talk about stats. I understand it is convenient to blame stats esp. when they do not align with convenient assumptions, clueless beliefs, etc. 

 

3rd, It is not possible to watch every game or every player of every era. I comment on a variety of players .... Now if you think one has to have watched every player to comment on, please follow your own advice and do not post on any cricketers that you have not watched extensively (if you are doing that, good. I hope not to find a post on Bradman for e.g. from you) .... As a sidebar topic, based on your random statement like "not watching", can we infer from that - it may be difficult for folks like you in general to rate Kapil's 175 (no extensive video exists and I doubt that many were at the ground) 

 

 

Quote

 

If your contention is Roger Binny and Chetan Sharma, Binny played hardly 8 yrs of international cricket. Chetan sharma played for about 5-6 yrs. Kapil played a good 16 yrs of international cricket, throughout carrying the medium pace bowling almost singlehandedly. Despite playing for 16 good years, and bowling in subcontinent, Kapil ended with average below 30! That itself shows the consistency. 

 

Roger Binny played just one series, and a total of 3 matches in England. He performed well. Doesnt make Kapil any lesser. The only saving grace in Roger Binny's career are the records from English tour and against Srilanka ( worse than Afghanistan of today, as a team ).

 

Chetan Sharma played just 2 tests in England, the same series actually and he performed well. For once, Kapil got a breather with these 2 bowlers. Chetan Sharma was mostly garbage against other teams, with the exception of Sri Lanka. 

And you want to compare these 2 bowlers to Kapil? 

 

Again a random post by you. The discussion is beyond such basics ^ 

 

The point is not Binny, Sharma, etc. are better/equivalent/whatever than Kapil. It is acknowledged that Kapil is better (Is he not seen as an ATG?). The points are simple:

 

a) Kapil is inconsistent (relative to those in his segment) esp. overseas 

b) He has received support in one form or other in many series as seen from those series highlighted. Many bowlers can provide support in their respective capacity in a particular series. In the discussed series, Kapil has actually been out bowled by bowlers who were considered as not even good as support bowlers (otherwise people would not make excuses about support). If we are to make fun of these "support" bowlers, what does it say about Kapil's bowling. Even when Kapil has received "support", he has not been consistent to do much or be a game changer 

c) Kapil is overrated as a great (great can have various degrees. does not mean he is not good/great) 

d) Overseas, if his bowling avg were like his batting avg, and vice versa, it would have been relatively more interesting 

 

 

Quote

 

How do you discount the heavy burden of responsibility on Kapil's and Gavaskar's shoulders for carrying the team through? Is there a metric to calculate the sheer pressure? Imran and Botham did not face the pressure, with the exception of Hadlee who was truly a legend. 

 

 

I get it that in your mind - on one hand, there is no metric to measure pressure, on the other hand, you think you may the ability to evaluate that x, y, z faced more pressure (explains why you struggle with stats too) 

 

Hilarious to know that you think that Imran and Botham did not face pressure (pressure can be faced through a variety of scenarios. someone can even argue that playing for a weak team, the pressure to win and therefore perform consistently can be relatively less) .... And you expect people to have a decent discussion with you!   

 

 

Quote

One would be a fool to think players like Heath Streak, Chris Cairns, Neil Johnson and the likes were just average bowlers, They were pretty good, but lacked the support from the other end. Just like Kapil did. 

A strawman and out of scope. 

 

When judged v the best, they would evaluated accordingly.  

Edited August 18, 2020 by zen

[zen]

17 minutes ago, rtmohanlal said:

Now Kapil bowled a whopping 27740 balls in career. Imagine a situation where Botham bowled  5925 balls more  in this 12 year period where he averaged a mere  34.27  along with the '7.27 worser support bowling strength Kapil had'. Sure his average would have gone much worser.

 

Conversely,  had Kapil bowled only 21815 balls in his entire career  with same work density  as that of Botham and with the same bowling support strength Botham enjoyed he would have ended up with a much better average. Infact , I rate Kapil a 26.75 averaging bowler when compared to Botham in all possibilities.

 

We may agree to disagree

That is a figment of your imagination. If you have to imagine, why not 26.05