Tradition - peer pressure from the dead

[BacktoCricaddict]

I think about traditions a great deal, why we blindly follow them, why they are so important to us, and so on.  A year or so ago, I came across this statement and it stuck with me.  I actually agree with it:

 

 

This year, for Ganesha puja, traditional kozhukkatais and such were prepared in the household.  As the resident atheist, I quietly participated in getting dressed, supporting the family and hanging out when the pujas were done, and eating a couple of morsels of kozhukkattai. 

 

But, I wanted to add something:  I had grown a bunch of glass gem corn (beautiful native American variety, not directly edible) this year and got a nice yield.  So, I asked the elder if it would be okay to keep some of that as "naivedhyam."  The immediate response was shock - it is not traditional, we never did that in India.  But I didn't see  anything wrong with it, and said ... "well, what's to say Ganapathi, or at the very least, Mooshak would not enjoy it?"  So it got served.  And will get displayed during Navarathri too.  

 

When I cook with my kids, they have full freedom to try new things in the recipes.  There's nothing like "we must make Bisi Bele Bhath exactly like Dad makes it."  You want to experiment with some unusual veggies?  Different masala combo?  Let's try it.  Why be traditional?  And I tell them, "when I am gone, don't feel like you should do things like I did them.  Do them your way ... create your own personal recipes and traditions, and then keep changing them. 

 

Growing up, it was all about tradition.  For this festival, only this should be made. For that puja, only that should be made.  Otherwise, they threw Paap and Shaap concepts at you.  Why?  Do your dead ancestors really care whether you put ghee in the fire or palm oil?  My advice to my kids?  "Serve appams to Ganapathi and make Kozhukkattais during Diwali."   Or if you don't want to celebrate Ganapathi and Diwali, sure, that's your life.  No pressure from us.  As long as something brings you joy without hurting others, just do it.

 

Here's an article that reflects this idea:

https://journalstar.com/lifestyles/family/traditions-are-just-peer-pressure-from-dead-people/article_ac221bae-47b5-5968-ad5d-b08080b8c47a.html

 

Am sure many here will disagree.  

 

[coffee_rules]

Ah Indian woes! I am kind of wary when 70+ uncles are around and don’t rebel much. But, personally, I believe in some pooja rituals , but have. given up on what is ok (we call it madi which means ok by tradition, halal , but @Real McCoy doesn’t like that word kosher. ) Esp when elders are not around. I am not supposed to worship Shiva as a vaishnavite, but I have an idol of Shiva I pray to. As a Dharmic in 2020, we have to accept all trads, even atheism.  I have kept two Pineapples next Ganesha idol like banana stem decor, which would have been a big no-no for my mom. Used random leaves instead of mango leaves at the door threshold. 
 

I do improvise in cooking. Before turning trad, used to eat meat for which I am sure I will go to hell or be born as the same animal I devoured, in my next life. But, with some good karma from now till I die, will give some good punya to wash away the paapa for my next birth.

[Real McCoy]

It was a tradition because it meant something good in the past that we don't know now. It became watered down to us because even our immediate ancestors didn't know about the meaning of these traditions and simply followed them religiously until it came down to us rascals and our "youthful" rebellion. I guess most of us here are adults now so rebelling for rebellion's sake is juvenile and dare I say stupid. If you can, go along with tradition and if its not possible due to our modern complexities of life, just do whatever is possible.

@coffee_rules I don't like halal as well. It doesn't mean I hate muslims per se just that I don't like what they do with animals. Other religious customs they do that doesn't harm anyone whether it is called halal or kosher is ok with me. I took an objection in that thread because the word became synonymous with purity which I object. Killing of animals in such a horrible way cannot be associated with purity.

[BacktoCricaddict]

10 hours ago, coffee_rules said:

Ah Indian woes! I am kind of wary when 70+ uncles are around and don’t rebel much. But, personally, I believe in some pooja rituals , but have. given up on what is ok (we call it madi which means ok by tradition, halal , but @Real McCoy doesn’t like that word kosher. ) Esp when elders are not around. I am not supposed to worship Shiva as a vaishnavite, but I have an idol of Shiva I pray to. As a Dharmic in 2020, we have to accept all trads, even atheism.  I have kept two Pineapples next Ganesha idol like banana stem decor, which would have been a big no-no for my mom. Used random leaves instead of mango leaves at the door threshold. 
 

I do improvise in cooking. Before turning trad, used to eat meat for which I am sure I will go to hell or be born as the same animal I devoured, in my next life. But, with some good karma from now till I die, will give some good punya to wash away the paapa for my next birth.

Speaking of rituals, many of the puja rituals are downright ridiculous and often cruel.  The one that upset me right from when I was little was the exclusion of widows from pujas like Varamahalaksmi.  My grandma lost my grandpa when he quite young, and from her mid-40s onwards, she was shunned in these situations.  Often, my parents would try to tell her that they want to include her, but would not have the courage to follow through or she would herself not have the courage to show up.  The whole concept of "Sumangali" is bunk.  As if it is something good that the woman did that her husband is alive and somehow her fault that he died.  As if her presence would cause it to happen to the others.  The flaunting of "I have a husband, you don't" has irked me all my life.  And no amount of "tradition," "Sanatana Dharma" or any of that is reason enough to subject your own kin to such humiliation.  

 

Widowers, OTOH, were encouraged to remarry so someone could "take care" of his children and "needs would be fulfilled."  Ultimate BS.  

[coffee_rules]

19 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Speaking of rituals, many of the puja rituals are downright ridiculous and often cruel.  The one that upset me right from when I was little was the exclusion of widows from pujas like Varamahalaksmi.  My grandma lost my grandpa when he quite young, and from her mid-40s onwards, she was shunned in these situations.  Often, my parents would try to tell her that they want to include her, but would not have the courage to follow through or she would herself not have the courage to show up.  The whole concept of "Sumangali" is bunk.  As if it is something good that the woman did that her husband is alive and somehow her fault that he died.  As if her presence would cause it to happen to the others.  The flaunting of "I have a husband, you don't" has irked me all my life.  And no amount of "tradition," "Sanatana Dharma" or any of that is reason enough to subject your own kin to such humiliation.  

 

Widowers, OTOH, were encouraged to remarry so someone could "take care" of his children and "needs would be fulfilled."  Ultimate BS.  

That is a custom and not a ritual. Widow practices are regressive and need reform, esp in UCs. I had been to Vrindavan, and it is a sorry sight of widows begging on the street. The city has many  ashrams, but still families come a leave the widows in their family here and leave. Law is the only course of reform.  
 

My mom still kept her red bindi after my dad passed away and didn’t perform any of the horrible rituals they show in movies - wiping of sindoor and breaking bangles. Relatives initiated, but we all as family put it out. She gets ill treated in the nearby community temples , but she does all her rituals that she did before. Esp in functions, she keeps out as people don’t like, but I would’ve supported her if she wanted to fight. 
 

Widow remarriages would happen in individual cases, have seen a few in extended family, but mostly through personal efforts. There is no community approach. In some Islamic families, the brothers or cousins automatically marry the widow. That is also a bad custom. It should be out of free will.

[BacktoCricaddict]

6 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

That is a custom and not a ritual. Widow practices are regressive and need reform, esp in UCs. I had been to Vrindavan, and it is a sorry sight of widows begging on the street. The city has many  ashrams, but still families come a leave the widows in their family here and leave. Law is the only course of reform.  
 

My mom still kept her red bindi after my dad passed away and didn’t perform any of the horrible rituals they show in movies - wiping of sindoor and breaking bangles. Relatives initiated, but we all as family put it out. She gets ill treated in the nearby community temples , but she does all her rituals that she did before. Esp in functions, she keeps out as people don’t like, but I would’ve supported her if she wanted to fight. 
 

Widow remarriages would happen in individual cases, have seen a few in extended family, but mostly through personal efforts. There is no community approach. In some Islamic families, the brothers or cousins automatically marry the widow. That is also a bad custom. It should be out of free will.

The lines between ritual and custom are blurred, and they are all rooted in blind adherence to the principle that "Doddavaru heLidre adralli yEno ondirbeku." (If elders say it, there must be something to it), without asking if that "something" is really something meaningful.  

[coffee_rules]

9 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

The lines between ritual and custom are blurred, and they are all rooted in blind adherence to the principle that "Doddavaru heLidre adralli yEno ondirbeku." (If elders say it, there must be something to it), without asking if that "something" is really something meaningful.  

Rituals, IMO, are pooja vidhaana/practices that don’t are blindly followed during worship ,  as prescribed in Vedas and Aagama shastras. Customs/paddhati are what communities follow because their elders did , and has no scriptural basis. Widows not involved in pooja rituals or kept out is one such custom communities follow blindly. We need to fight such blind customs if we need reform.  Reform should come within, if we need change. Did you still offer the corn for Ganesha , even if somebody objected ?

Edited September 18, 2020 by coffee_rules

[dial_100]

Pooja, dhyan, dharana, mantra, japa all of them have 1 purpose. Honey !

Pooja is a community event performed for community blessings, or a family blessings and not for an individual.

Pooja is a process to get honey from beehive. So-called beekeeper wears the suit, prepares himself or herself. Takes a long stick, gets rid of bees and all the wax, collects all the honey in the end. 

Now once honey is collected, it is absorbed by each individual as per his/her capacity. BeeKeeper might not even get one drop even if he is the one who collected it all. The weakest of the weak could get maximum honey if he deserves it. 

Pooja is exact that ceremony. Who performs pooja is just a protocol. The one who performs pooja rituals, prepares prasad, does pooja preparation and performs whatever other rituals means nothing but the process performed as per protocol to get community blessings. Those blessings are distributed among only those who deserve and have no bearing on who sat on actual front seat to do the ritual or who said the mantras. Instead of focusing on honey, the stupid world is after what Beekeeper wears, what he does, what tools he uses. Those who do not know how to absorb that honey are all racing in collecting these antique items thinking they will gain aforementioned honey. Lot of people claim that they have so much honey.  The one who knows what it is, is actually quietly sitting in the corner sucking it all up. Its available in unlimited quantities.

 

Why did Rhishis perform yagyas and havanas? for their own benefits? No. Its all get distributed in the society.  

So widows, divorcees, unmarried adults, dont fear, keep your focus on honey. I dont know why are we defending them. Actually, this group has the best opportunity to gain all the honey. They have no overheads. 

Besides, poojas are not for individuals. For that you have dhyana and japa/tapa. You get direct honey. 

 

The beekeeper ideally should be called a bramhan, the one who is capable of collecting that honey. Now go figure how many in this world are really capable of that? We have turned that into some kind of special label that can be inherited by birth. To me real bramhan is anybody who is capable of collecting that honey for everyone(not himself). Thats his real job. Nobody is born with that. We have to become that.

 

There are definitely few protocols to follow but otherwise its mostly idiotic understanding of people that got pushed over for generations not knowing the real meaning. 

[beetle]

18 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

The lines between ritual and custom are blurred, and they are all rooted in blind adherence to the principle that "Doddavaru heLidre adralli yEno ondirbeku." (If elders say it, there must be something to it), without asking if that "something" is really something meaningful.  

If you ask the meaning behind it...the answer is ...tu chup kar!

 

Most regressive customs have been followed because of our elders not wanting to be questioned by youngsters. 

Infact ,most customs are meant to keep the supperiority of elder intact and keeping younsters  in control.

Control means status quo that makes them the boss in the family / community.

[BacktoCricaddict]

Quote

Did you still offer the corn for Ganesha , even if somebody objected ?

I sweet-talked them into agreeing.  And did it.  

 

Quote

Rituals, IMO, are pooja vidhaana/practices that don’t are blindly followed during worship ,  as prescribed in Vedas and Aagama shastras.

This perception is very reminiscent of "the Bible says it, so it must be right."  Being prescribed in the shaastras or any holy book alone does not make them sacred to the point that it is considered the ultimate truth.  There may have been some specific benefit at some point in history (often, I even doubt that) to doing a particular ritual at a particular time, but the pressure to do them the same way in today's world, when there is no reason for it, is immense.   Like beetle said, the crux of the issue is that it is near-impossible to question the purveyors of these rituals.  The other issue is that there is no room for reasoning, experimenting, asking questions like "how does this really benefit humanity in a tangible way?"  "What if it was done in a different way, or not at all?"  "How come the billions of Christians, Muslims and others who don't do these specific rituals are also coping with this world?"

 

In the end, IMO, it comes down to this:  Pujas in Hinduism, rituals like going to Sunday service in Christianity, or 5-a-day prayers in Islam exist:

(a) to instill a sense of routine and discipline.  

(b) to find an activity around which people can rally and show solidarity.

 

But they have also been co-opted by powers-that-be to instill fear of the unknown and threaten dire consequences if not followed.  In every religion.

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by BacktoCricaddict

[Real McCoy]

7 hours ago, dial_100 said:

Pooja, dhyan, dharana, mantra, japa all of them have 1 purpose. Honey !

Pooja is a community event performed for community blessings, or a family blessings and not for an individual.

Pooja is a process to get honey from beehive. So-called beekeeper wears the suit, prepares himself or herself. Takes a long stick, gets rid of bees and all the wax, collects all the honey in the end. 

Now once honey is collected, it is absorbed by each individual as per his/her capacity. BeeKeeper might not even get one drop even if he is the one who collected it all. The weakest of the weak could get maximum honey if he deserves it. 

Pooja is exact that ceremony. Who performs pooja is just a protocol. The one who performs pooja rituals, prepares prasad, does pooja preparation and performs whatever other rituals means nothing but the process performed as per protocol to get community blessings. Those blessings are distributed among only those who deserve and have no bearing on who sat on actual front seat to do the ritual or who said the mantras. Instead of focusing on honey, the stupid world is after what Beekeeper wears, what he does, what tools he uses. Those who do not know how to absorb that honey are all racing in collecting these antique items thinking they will gain aforementioned honey. Lot of people claim that they have so much honey.  The one who knows what it is, is actually quietly sitting in the corner sucking it all up. Its available in unlimited quantities.

 

Why did Rhishis perform yagyas and havanas? for their own benefits? No. Its all get distributed in the society.  

So widows, divorcees, unmarried adults, dont fear, keep your focus on honey. I dont know why are we defending them. Actually, this group has the best opportunity to gain all the honey. They have no overheads. 

Besides, poojas are not for individuals. For that you have dhyana and japa/tapa. You get direct honey. 

 

The beekeeper ideally should be called a bramhan, the one who is capable of collecting that honey. Now go figure how many in this world are really capable of that? We have turned that into some kind of special label that can be inherited by birth. To me real bramhan is anybody who is capable of collecting that honey for everyone(not himself). Thats his real job. Nobody is born with that. We have to become that.

 

There are definitely few protocols to follow but otherwise its mostly idiotic understanding of people that got pushed over for generations not knowing the real meaning. 

Not many will understand what you are saying but I get it. The naysayers will come with stupid responses to the honey and beekeeper analogy trying to act cool and fashionable to society at large. Srila Prabhupada went to USA to preach his hare krishna movement to americans because he knew Indians will mimic western values and by promoting krishna to americans, he said "maybe the Indian rascals will copy that too". Nobody understands how much we are in that same mindset even after independence.

[coffee_rules]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

This perception is very reminiscent of "the Bible says it, so it must be right."  Being prescribed in the shaastras or any holy book alone does not make them sacred to the point that it is considered the ultimate truth.

Who says that? All rituals that we do has scriptural basis in vedas and shastras. Since, we are also plural and think we ought to change as per the times we live in, we respect all branches of vidhaana. There is no dogma to say you have to it one way or you will go to hell.  Isthadevata concept gives us freedom and you can see divinity in anything

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

  There may have been some specific benefit at some point in history (often, I even doubt that) to doing a particular ritual at a particular time, but the pressure to do them the same way in today's world, when there is no reason for it, is immense. 
 

yes, with enough representation it can be reformed. 

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 Like beetle said, the crux of the issue is that it is near-impossible to question the purveyors of these rituals.  The other issue is that there is no room for reasoning, experimenting, asking questions like "how does this really benefit humanity in a tangible way?"  "What if it was done in a different way, or not at all?"  "How come the billions of Christians, Muslims and others who don't do these specific rituals are also coping with this world?"

 

As I said , a lot of us don’t know why we do what we do, as educators of these things have stopped doing it for generations. So, it is left to those who claim expert knowledge. But, they don’t stop seekers to find that expert knowledge or believing in something of your own. Individual worship or mantras is mainly for meditation and distraction from stress. Some sit and just meditate, some have pooja vidhaana. Nobody is forcing to do it their way.

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

In the end, IMO, it comes down to this:  Pujas in Hinduism, rituals like going to Sunday service in Christianity, or 5-a-day prayers in Islam exist:

(a) to instill a sense of routine and discipline.  

(b) to find an activity around which people can rally and show solidarity.

 

No way. Dharma is not about going to Sunday service or Friday prayers. The community show of strength is a recent phenomenon to fight expansionist religions.

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

But they have also been co-opted by powers-that-be to instill fear of the unknown and threaten dire consequences if not followed.  In every religion.

 

 

 

You were supposed to do samdhyavandana as per Vedic rituals , three times a day. Haven’t we all stoped doing it? Did anybody tell or scare you that if you don’t do it , bad things will happen to you? But if somebody is motivated to do it, why do you compare it to daily prayers muslims do?