Corona Temples in India

[zen]

1 minute ago, coffee_rules said:

Do you know the concept of Ishtadevta? It is very common. Each family has a family god!  We worship navagrahas. I don’t believe history has anything to do with worship, they are not forcing their beliefs on to you, you don’t have to believe in their god and rituals. 

That has nothing to do with creating random events and Gods by misusing Hinduism and its rituals 

 

No family that I know has a random Ishtadevta. Try to take a leaf and tell your family, it is your family’s Ishtadevta. Chances are they will take it as a joke 

 

The point is that one cannot misuse Hindusim and its rituals. And because such things are done by certain Hindus (knowingly or unknowingly), it does not become a part of the religion 

[coffee_rules]

8 minutes ago, zen said:

That has nothing to do with creating random events and Gods by misusing Hinduism and its rituals 

 

No family that I know has a random Ishtadevta. Try to take a leaf and tell your family, it is your family’s Ishtadevta. Chances are they will take it as a joke 

 

The point is that one cannot misuse Hindusim and its rituals. And because such things are done by certain Hindus (knowingly or unknowingly), it does not become a part of the religion 

Ishtadevta is a personal choice, not family’s. Saibaba (different avatars) devotees consider themselves Hindus. They are very recent in history. Your concepts excludes them, what do you mean by ‘one cannot misuse Hinduism’? There is no s no such one central idea governing Hinduism. Swami Narayan worshipped by Gujaratis patidars and others, has a history of 200-300 years. They are considered a Hindu sect 

 

BTW, Shirdi Saibaba is considered an avatar of Shiva, not Balram. Many Hindus , Shaivites and Vaishnavites go to Saibaba temple , nor because he is an avatar, but chose to do so believing that he will bring them peace and general well-being

Edited June 13, 2021 by coffee_rules

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, coffee_rules said:

First up, that India Today reporter was so condescending. He should be reporting, not giving his opinion and judgement. 
 

Comparing this kind of worship, to that of temples to Film stars and politicians is not equivalent. Film stars are not believed to protect people from cursed diseases, they are done for seeking attention and grab their 15 mins.

 

India always had religious and spiritual ways to handle crisis in their personal lives, there have been temples and deities invented to believe that the people who worship will be rid of such a curse.
 

Villages, usually  have a gramadevata , a deity that blesses the well-being  of their village, protect them from famine and drought, and some are are from diseases like plague and cholera.

 

Mariamma (Mary ) temples are very common in South India where it was also used to scare poor castes and convert to Christianity  as well. There used to be animal sacrifices to please such gods.

 

Why do you want to control other peoples’ lives , their beliefs with your sense of perceived knowledge? Are they killing people in the name of their religion or praying for  eternal damnation to non-believers of their deity? This type of control needs to be discouraged, if somebody wants to pray to a lizard , why not let them? If their temple was not built with permission from civic authorities, permits and built on encroached property, then it makes sense to be demolished, not for praying in a temple.

 

Many families have a pratha to perform Satyanarayana pooja to achieve a wishful objective or thank god for fulfilling their wish. Just yesterday, attended one in a friend’s house after their son got into an Ivy League college, which they had wished. If we let people like OP (India today guy) take control, such pooja, yagnas, yaags (some believe in bringing rain) will be abolished. Thank god, We don’t live in communist regime.

The Corona mata was modern enough to be wearing a mask as well. ! When the first vaccines were delivered in India, doctors applied haldi-kunkum for good luck, Rajnath Singh did the same to the first Rafale jet delivery, this is our way of life! we don’t say don’t believe in science.

 

Such debates and mockery is reserved for Hindu rituals, can India Today go to a conversion camp and criticize the padre who is claiming to cure somebody’s disease instantly? They will be critical of him for not letting freedom of religion!

 

 

 

 

I am no religious scholar, but I grew up steeped in Hinduism.  From my perspective Mariamman is an ancient Goddess - an avatar of Durga/Kali.  Adi Sakthi Maata, Karumaari aathaa.  There are multiple Mariamman temples in TN and Karnataka too. 

 

Is the Samayapuram Mariamman temple Christian?  I don't think so.  I have been there and it is as Hindu as it gets.  Is the Karumariamman temple near Chennai Christian (https://www.hindu-blog.com/2020/09/story-of-devi-karumariamman-and-surya.html)?  I've never been there, but whatever visuals I have seen and songs about Karumariamman I heard growing up had no Christian references.  

 

The 2 times I went to Sabarimalai as a teenager, we would sing a number of Devi songs referring to Mariamman during our Vradham (Vrathaa) and the journey.  We were definitely in no way invoking images of Mary.  The way I thought about it, Mariamman is the Devi of the rural working class - she represents rain and strength.

 

I think there are 2 possibilities: Recently, some Christian organizations have co-opted Mariamman.  Or some other background forces are working to divide Hindus even more.  What next?  Murugan represents St. Michael?

 

@coffee_rules, I added this in edit:  Growing up, I would go to a temple in Voddara Palya, a slum near Rajajinagar, Bengaluru with our domestic help's brother.  It was a temple for a deity named "Salla Prema."  You cannot find it on Google even.  The rituals were unique but very Hindu-like (aarati, flowers, haLadi kumkuma etc.).  Priests were non-Brahmin; a place of worship for "untouchables."  Nothing Christian there.  OMG, the amount of flak I took from my Brahmin relatives for defiling myself and my thread.

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[zen]

2 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

Saibaba (different avatars) devotees consider themselves Hindus. They are very recent in history. Your concepts excludes them, what do you mean by ‘one cannot misuse Hinduism’? There is no s no such one central idea governing Hinduism. Swami Narayan worshipped by Gujaratis patidars and others, has a history of 200-300 years. They are considered a Hindu sect 

 

As I said, Saibaba of Shirdi is considered an avatar of Balram ... Similarly, Swami Narayan an avatar of Krishna (or an ansh of Krishna) ... Gods in Hinduism have a history and lineage

[beetle]

19 minutes ago, zen said:

Unfortunately, that is NOT Hinduism, which has a history.  No random thing is worshipped in it 

 

You can worship a shell but it is unrelated to any religion. No body apart from you is going to worship it

I am glad there is no authority who gets to tell me that what I worship and how I worship is wrong .

 

You don't understand the essence of the faith. There are rules but there is freedom too. 

 

You can make a figure from atta or mud or even cow dung for that matter and call it God . You can turn a rock on the road side into your God because God is in everything you believe it is in.

 

You probably have not seen how trees and even rocks become object of mass worship because people believe.Have you ever travelled outside of metro cities in India?

 

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

39 minutes ago, beetle said:

I am glad there is no authority who gets to tell me that what I worship and how I worship is wrong .

 

You don't understand the essence of the faith. There are rules but there is freedom too. 

 

You can make a figure from atta or mud or even cow dung for that matter and call it God . You can turn a rock on the road side into your God because God is in everything you believe it is in.

 

You probably have not seen how trees and even rocks become object of mass worship because people believe.Have you ever travelled outside of metro cities in India?

 

 

 

Marble idols adorned in 24-karat gold with gemstones housed in a 50000 sq ft ornate marble structure.  Only that can be a temple for some.  Elitist crap.   

Edited June 13, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[coffee_rules]

4 minutes ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

I am no religious scholar, but I grew up steeped in Hinduism.  From my perspective Mariamman is an ancient Goddess - an avatar of Durga/Kali.  Adi Sakthi Maata, Karumaari aathaa.  There are multiple Mariamman temples in TN and Karnataka too. 

 

Is the Samayapuram Mariamman temple Christian?  I don't think so.  I have been there and it is as Hindu as it gets.  Is the Karumariamman temple near Chennai Christian (https://www.hindu-blog.com/2020/09/story-of-devi-karumariamman-and-surya.html)?  I've never been there, but whatever visuals I have seen and songs about Karumariamman I heard growing up had no Christian references.  

 

The 2 times I went to Sabarimalai as a teenager, we would sing a number of Devi songs referring to Mariamman during our Vradham (Vrathaa) and the journey.  We were definitely in no way invoking images of Mary.  The way I thought about it, Mariamman is the Devi of the rural working class - she represents rain and strength.

 

I think there are 2 possibilities: Recently, some Christian organizations have co-opted Mariamman.  Or some other background forces are working to divide Hindus even more.  What next?  Murugan represents St. Michael?

 

  

 

   

I should have said. Some mariamman deities are coopted by Christians.

 

Like this one..

 

https://m.facebook.com/shriparwandram/posts/on-one-side-is-dewi-mariamman-the-south-indian-goddess-who-is-a-patron-of-women-/4035586509846763/

 

Read about the Achirupaakkum Hillock

 

https://bharatabharati.in/2010/07/09/achirupaakkam-hillock-crime-and-cunningness-of-catholic-church-b-r-haran/

 

[zen]

1 minute ago, beetle said:

I am glad there is no authority who gets to tell me that what I worship and how I worship is wrong .

 

You don't understand the essence of the faith. There are rules but there is freedom too. 

 

 

All that has nothing to do with Hinduism. You are talking about what you worship. You have freedom to even worship your fingernail (but trying to relate it to Hinduism is a misrepresentation) 

 

 

 

Quote

 

You can make a figure from atta or mud or even cow dung for that matter and call it God . You can turn a rock on the road side into your God because God is in everything you believe it is in.

 

 

That is a misrepresentation. I can take a stone for e.g. and do a pratistha, considering it as a representation of God, and worship it. A random stone or cow dung is not God 

 

God is not anything that you believe in. We can worship/respect our parents, neighbors, the big banyan tree in our neighborhood, a majestic mountain, etc., but they are not Gods 

 

 

Quote

You probably have not seen how trees and even rocks become object of mass worship because people believe.Have you ever travelled outside of metro cities in India?

 

 

As I said, that is misrepresentations by Hinduism and its rituals by clueless masses ... Hindus doing x does not mean that is Hinduism ... I am a Hindu but  I go to Mosques and Churches. That does not make going to churches a Hindu ritual or a part of Hindusim. It is just me an individual exploring other religions 

[beetle]

Just now, BacktoCricaddict said:

Marble idols adorned in 24-karat gold with gemstones housed in a 5000 sq ft ornate marble structure.  Only that can be a temple for some.   

I rarely go to big temples now. Totally disillusioned by the power trips of the authority there. 

 

I prefer small temples .

We have plenty of them in Uttarakhand. Often built by individuals or families . Most of these are built after some wish is fulfilled. Little white structure with an idol inside and no pandit. 

Just you and God . Fold your hands,say your prayer and move on.

[beetle]

4 minutes ago, zen said:

That is a misrepresentation. I can take a stone for e.g. and do a pratistha, considering it as a representation of God, and worship it. A random stone or cow dung is not God 

That is also right and the other way is also right .The best part is ,you not believing in my way does not make it wrong and vice versa.

 

Some people choose the ritualistic part of religion and others choose the spiritual part. 

Having that choice is great . 

 

 

[zen]

Just now, beetle said:

That is also right and the other way is also right .The best part is ,you not believing in my way does not make it wrong and vice versa.

 

Religions have rules. Gods have history and lineage. There is a clear distinction b/w right and wrong 

 

There is no such thing as I can do what I like. You cannot take poison and claim it is a God of Hinduism. For you poison can be God (based on your freewill, understanding of religion, etc)  but it has nothing to do with Hindusim

 

 

Quote

 

Some people choose the ritualistic part of religion and others choose the spiritual part. 

Having that choice is great . 

 

 

There is no such choice in reality at an advanced level as to achieve spiritual goals, you still have to do certain rituals including zazen 

 

The concern here is of the clueless masses turning a great religion like Hindusim into mockery based on their limited understanding and pursuit of convenience

[beetle]

1 minute ago, zen said:

 

Religions have rules. Gods have history and lineage. There is a clear distinction b/w right and wrong 

 

There is no such thing as I can do what I like. You cannot take poison and claim it is a God of Hinduism. For you poison can be God (based on your freewill, understanding of religion, etc)  but it has nothing to do with Hindusim

 

 

 

There is no such choice in reality at an advanced level as to achieve spiritual goals, you still have to do certain rituals including zazen 

 

The concern here is of the clueless masses turning a great religion like Hindusim into mockery based on their limited understanding and pursuit of convenience

Seriously man..

You are behaving like a fundamentalist zealot.

 

The clueless masses are the ones who are keeping the essence of the faith alive or else it would have become another commodity to be sold and bought by people who have the money to build the temples.

 

 

[zen]

Just now, beetle said:

Seriously man..

You are behaving like a fundamentalist zealot.

 

The clueless masses are the ones who are keeping the essence of the faith alive or else it would have become another commodity to be sold and bought by people who have the money to build the temples.

 

 

The clueless masses if they say that their fingernail is a Hindu God, without understanding the history and lineage and creating stuff for their convenience, are not pursuing Hinduism ... Creating temple and applying Hindu rituals for film stars, cricketers and viruses, claiming a random thing to be a God, etc., is a misrepresentation of this great religion 

 

Religion is not a democratic and secular institution. But as I said, it has rules (strict in many cases), clarity on what is right and wrong, ... 

[beetle]

10 minutes ago, zen said:

There is no such choice in reality at an advanced level as to achieve spiritual goals, you still have to do certain rituals including zazen 

Why do you want to limit peoples choices ? Why do you want to control ?

Why do you want to define and limit people's spiritual goals?

 

Every time I pass through Haridwar, I fold my hand to Ganga. It gives me peace. I don't want to take a dip in Ganga and pollute it with my dirt and sin. Why is my way of paying respect any less than the person who takes a dip . I don't want the rewards of taking a dip. I am happy just folding hands and saying my little prayer and I feel good. That is my reward. Why is it not the correct way? Why reduce a faith to some rituals that can be manipulated and misrepresented?

 

 

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

40 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I should have said. Some mariamman deities are coopted by Christians.

 

Like this one..

 

https://m.facebook.com/shriparwandram/posts/on-one-side-is-dewi-mariamman-the-south-indian-goddess-who-is-a-patron-of-women-/4035586509846763/

 

Read about the Achirupaakkum Hillock

 

https://bharatabharati.in/2010/07/09/achirupaakkam-hillock-crime-and-cunningness-of-catholic-church-b-r-haran/

 

Now, that is totally different.  This is an old trick in the conversion playbook.  Take advantage of the pre-existing bad blood between different sects to drive a wedge.  Keep pointing out how one group has been disrespected historically by the other, and promise them greener pastures.  If/when caste-based discrimination ends among Hindus, they will not have that weapon anymore.   

Edited June 13, 2021 by BacktoCricaddict

[BacktoCricaddict]

27 minutes ago, beetle said:

That is also right and the other way is also right .The best part is ,you not believing in my way does not make it wrong and vice versa.

 

Some people choose the ritualistic part of religion and others choose the spiritual part. 

Having that choice is great . 

 

 

Any yet others choose to be neither.  As long as it is not hurting anyone else, it is a perfectly good choice too.  

[beetle]

1 minute ago, zen said:

Creating temple and applying Hindu rituals for film stars, cricketers and viruses, claiming a random thing to be a God, etc., is a misrepresentation of this great religion 

I also find that stupid but what has that got to do with their belief? How do we know the thousands of God's were not the revered celebrities of their times?

 

We have so many temples for Pandavas too. Were they God's or celebrity warriors? 

There are temples of so many local devtas that most hindus do not even know, but are relevant to the local population.

 

It is fine to find their beliefs silly if you are an atheist . But to say God can not be found in things other than idols found in proper temples is just stupid.

 

If God can be in the big marble idol in a huge fancy temple, God can be found in every object you put your belief in .

 

 

[zen]

Just now, beetle said:

Why do you want to limit peoples choices ? Why do you want to control ?

Why do you want to define and limit people's spiritual goals

 

When it comes to Hinduism, things are already defined. It is its Gods. It has its rules. It has clarity on what is right and wrong. 

 

If you want to worship your shell as God, feel free to do so. No one has anything against it. But that has no association with Hinduism apart from a Hindu doing such things 

 

 

 

Quote

Every time I pass through Haridwar, I fold my hand to Ganga. It gives me peace. I don't want to take a dip in Ganga and pollute it with my dirt and sin. Why is my way of paying respect any less than the person who takes a dip . I don't want the rewards of taking a dip. I am happy just folding hands and saying my little prayer and I feel good. That is my reward. Why is it not the correct way? Why reduce a faith to some rituals that can be manipulated and misrepresented?

 

Not taking a dip in Ganga is fine. There are people who are not even able to pass by Ganga. Much like you do not need to go to a temple to worship God. You can close your eyes and pray to God from anywhere

 

Why ppl go to a temple is because a pratishta is done of the idol, whereby certain fragments of God are said to be in it. That makes you closer to the God

 

There is a distinction here b/w freedom on how to worship and whom (not film stars, criciekers, viruses, finger nails, etc.) to worship 

 

 

 

 

 

[beetle]

Zen....when you made the thread about you getting Corona....I prayed for you to my Gods which includes the shell .

Also my prayers are not formal prayers....it just involves me talking to God and seeking blessings .  The irony 

[zen]

14 minutes ago, beetle said:

I also find that stupid but what has that got to do with their belief? How do we know the thousands of God's were not the revered celebrities of their times?

 

As I said, Gods have histories and lineage ... Creating random Gods on purpose is unwarranted 

 

 

Quote

We have so many temples for Pandavas too. Were they God's or celebrity warriors? 

 

Pandavas are not Gods ... One of the reasons for having their temple is there close association with Krishna, who imparted the great knowledge to Arjun ... So it is not a random event but through close connection with Krishna 

 

Quote

 

There are temples of so many local devtas that most hindus do not even know, but are relevant to the local population.

It is fine to find their beliefs silly if you are an atheist . But to say God can not be found in things other than idols found in proper temples is just stupid. If God can be in the big marble idol in a huge fancy temple, God can be found in every object you put your belief in .

 

 

Idols are worshipped after doing a pratista ... No one picks up a random branch and worships it as a God 

 

If you think God is found in every object, your bed is a God too, why do you sleep on it? The tiles on your floor can be seen as God too, why do you walk on it? God can be found in your child too, why do you scold/beat it? 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2021 by zen