Will Root end up with a higher average than Kohli?

[Vijy]

4 hours ago, Lord said:

 

Different eras. Kane and Kohli are same era

I wouldn't put voges over smith even though they are from nearly the same era. Avg alone doesn't tell the whole story IMO

[Lord]

2 minutes ago, Vijy said:

I wouldn't put voges over smith even though they are from nearly the same era. Avg alone doesn't tell the whole story IMO

 

they do if other factors are similar. In Voges-Smith case the sample size is much different. 

 

Ofcourse just avg cant tell everything, you have to dive deeper to analyse stats.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

 

they do if other factors are similar. In Voges-Smith case the sample size is much different. 

 

Ofcourse just avg cant tell everything, you have to dive deeper to analyse stats.

yes, that's why I don't think the gap between Kane and Kohli is as huge when taken over their entire career. Kane has benefited from scoring more against weaker teams and has not yet entered his slump. One can put him above Kohli, but it is not by a large margin, as far as I am concerned. On the other hand, Smith and Root are indeed very comfortably above Kane (and Kohli)

[Lord]

Just now, Vijy said:

yes, that's why I don't think the gap between Kane and Kohli is as huge when taken over their entire career. Kane has benefited from scoring more against weaker teams and has not yet entered his slump. One can put him above Kohli, but it is not by a large margin, as far as I am concerned. On the other hand, Smith and Root are indeed very comfortably above Kane (and Kohli)

 

yes Kane has too many things going for him

[Ultimate_Game]

2 hours ago, Vijy said:

yes, that's why I don't think the gap between Kane and Kohli is as huge when taken over their entire career. Kane has benefited from scoring more against weaker teams and has not yet entered his slump. One can put him above Kohli, but it is not by a large margin, as far as I am concerned. On the other hand, Smith and Root are indeed very comfortably above Kane (and Kohli)

 

2 hours ago, Lord said:

 

yes Kane has too many things going for him

 

I'm sorry bit a batter averaging 54+ is way ahead of a batter averaging 47. That's a huge difference especially when both the players played in the same era. Right now the hierarchy is as follows...

 

1. Smith

2. Root

<Daylight>

3. Williamson

<Daylight>

4. Kohli

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

 

I'm sorry bit a batter averaging 54+ is way ahead of a batter averaging 47. That's a huge difference especially when both the players played in the same era. Right now the hierarchy is as follows...

 

1. Smith

2. Root

<Daylight>

3. Williamson

<Daylight>

4. Kohli

Not really. VVS was way ahead of Azhar as a batter despite both finishing with roughly similar averages. Moreover, Kane's final career avg will come down. Right now, he is experiencing his peak, much like Brat had his 4-5 yr ago. He will likely finish lower.

 

Order when all have retired is: Smith >  Root >> Willy > Kohli.

Edited December 27, 2024 by Vijy

[Ultimate_Game]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Not really. VVS was way ahead of Azhar as a batter despite both finishing with roughly similar averages. Moreover, Kane's final career avg will come down. Right now, he is experiencing his peak, much like Brat had his 4-5 yr ago. He will likely finish lower.

 

Order when all have retired is: Smith >  Root >> Willy > Kohli.

 

Difference of 7 is not "similar" average. That's a chasm. I can understand if Kohli had an average of 53 or 52 it would've been a different story  but anything more than 2-3 points is a lot. You either have to compensate for this dip in average either in terms of longevity (e.g. Tendulkar) or play series and match defining innings (e.g. Lara against Aussies or Head in WTC final or in WC final or Smith against Eng in Ashes 3 years ago). Kohli has neither. Tell me one series or match defining knock by Kohli?

 

If you barely average 47 and have no major impact on a series or even one outstanding performance in a Test (e.g., Pant at Gabba in 2020-21), what exactly are you ahead in? VVS had a bunch of match winning knocks. That 281 in Kolkatta or where he batted with the tail to win matches for India. Kohli has none.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Difference of 7 is not "similar" average. That's a chasm. I can understand if Kohli had an average of 53 or 52 it would've been a different story  but anything more than 2-3 points is a lot. You either have to compensate for this dip in average either in terms of longevity (e.g. Tendulkar) or play series and match defining innings (e.g. Lara against Aussies or Head in WTC final or in WC final or Smith against Eng in Ashes 3 years ago). Kohli has neither. Tell me one series or match defining knock by Kohli?

 

If you barely average 47 and have no major impact on a series or even one outstanding performance in a Test (e.g., Pant at Gabba in 2020-21), what exactly are you ahead in? VVS had a bunch of match winning knocks. That 281 in Kolkatta or where he batted with the tail to win matches for India. Kohli has none.

You make some good points, which I agree with. However, let's agree to disagree on the overall discussion.

 

As for SRT, man averaged close to 60 (59.4 or something) for 18 years across about 160 tests! it was by far the most sustained period of excellence after bradman's 20-yr test career. SRT is in a class by himself - strong case for him being the next best batter after Bradman (Sobers is another candidate among those I watched: 58 batting avg over 20-yr career and 93 tests)

 

P.S. Kohli in 2018 vs Eng was pretty much a lone warrior. just because we lost this series (ironically, next to no batting support), it does not downgrade his efforts.

[Ultimate_Game]

8 minutes ago, Vijy said:

You make some good points, which I agree with. However, let's agree to disagree on the overall discussion.

 

As for SRT, man averaged close to 60 (59.4 or something) for 18 years across about 160 tests! it was by far the most sustained period of excellence after bradman's 20-yr test career. SRT is in a class by himself - strong case for him being the next best batter after Bradman (Sobers is another candidate among those I watched: 58 batting avg over 20-yr career and 93 tests)

 

P.S. Kohli in 2018 vs Eng was pretty much a lone warrior. just because we lost this series (ironically, next to no batting support), it does not downgrade his efforts.

 

That's the reason I brought up Tendulkar. Tendulkar's average came down at the end but he performed at a high level for a long period. In Kohli's case that longevity was only 5 years from 2014-2019. He was average before then and an absolute tailender since 2020.

 

Regarding the 2018 series you'll see one theme with Kohli. He's great when the match is safe or when the match's already lost. But when the match's in balance or he has to take the team to the finish line, he fails. In other words whenever there's pressure on him where his runs can make a difference, he ends up failing. That's the reason Kohli's best knocks have come in Draws or in losses. He hasn't had any match where he came in and took the match away from opponent. Literally every other top batter like Smith, Root, Williamson, Head, Pant etc. have an innings or match where they've done so. But not Kohli.

 

As I said it's the same theme from IPL playoffs where he becomes Mandeep Singh or ICC knockouts where he suddenly can't buy a run despite averaging close to 60 and scoring match winning 100s while chasing in meaningless bilaterals. Surely there have to be a match where it was hanging in a balance and you could make a difference. What exactly are you a King of if you can't do so? Probably King of cheap, impactless runs. Take this BGT series for example. Everytime Kohli had to score meaningful runs he failed. He only scored in one innings (Perth) when the match was practically already won by Jaiswal and Rahul. When someone looks at series averages Kohli's numbers wouldn't look that bad thanks to that useless unbeaten 100 but we all know the real story. Smith's 100s or Jasiwal and Rahul's knocks were much more impactful.

[Laaloo]

Kohli averages 47.5 now. That is not good at all. If he keeps going like this, he might not even make the All time Indian test xi team.

[Vijy]

2 hours ago, Laaloo said:

Kohli averages 47.5 now. That is not good at all. If he keeps going like this, he might not even make the All time Indian test xi team.

Since there are only 5 batting slots, he would not make it in my all-time XI, either in Asia or outside it.

 

I would have: Gavaskar, Sehwag (Asia)/Merchant (outside Asia), Dravid, SRT, VVS.

[Kothili]

.

Edited December 28, 2024 by Kothili

[Ultimate_Game]

20 hours ago, Laaloo said:

Kohli averages 47.5 now. That is not good at all. If he keeps going like this, he might not even make the All time Indian test xi team.

 

He doesn't make mine. VVS is ahead of him at the moment. My All Time India XI...

 

Gavaskar

Sehwag

Dravid

Tendulkar

VVS

Pant

Kapil

Ashwin/Jadeja

Zaheer

Shami

Bumrah

 

If we're playing at home replace Zaheer with Ashwin or Jadeja so both of them play. At the moment Kohli is not ahead of Laxman based on his impact and performances. That 281 and winning multiple matches with the tail put him ahead of Kohli in Tests.

 

Kohli makes it to the ODI and T20 teams but in Tests he's behind the ones mentioned above.

[Vijy]

18 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

He doesn't make mine. VVS is ahead of him at the moment. My All Time India XI...

 

Gavaskar

Sehwag

Dravid

Tendulkar

VVS

Pant

Kapil

Ashwin/Jadeja

Zaheer

Shami

Bumrah

 

If we're playing at home replace Zaheer with Ashwin or Jadeja so both of them play. At the moment Kohli is not ahead of Laxman based on his impact and performances. That 281 and winning multiple matches with the tail put him ahead of Kohli in Tests.

 

Kohli makes it to the ODI and T20 teams but in Tests he's behind the ones mentioned above.

We have more or less the same top 5 (as posted before you), though overseas I would have merchant ahead of sehwag. India's finest technician - the asian bradman

[Ultimate_Game]

3 minutes ago, Vijy said:

We have more or less the same top 5 (as posted before you), though overseas I would have merchant ahead of sehwag. India's finest technician - the asian bradman

 

Don't know much about Merchant but Sehwag before he lost his eye sight was an amazing batter outside India as well. Check out his debut Test 100 in SA or his MCG knock in 2004 or the way he played on greentops in NZ. He lost his eyesight in 2010-11 and was never the same again. Don't judge him by 2012 and later. There's a reason he became the only Test batter to score 3 triple 100s! He could score big and could pulverize opponents. You can never leave such a player out of your team.

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Don't know much about Merchant but Sehwag before he lost his eye sight was an amazing batter outside India as well. Check out his debut Test 100 in SA or his MCG knock in 2004 or the way he played on greentops in NZ. He lost his eyesight in 2010-11 and was never the same again. Don't judge him by 2012 and later. There's a reason he became the only Test batter to score 3 triple 100s! He could score big and could pulverize opponents. You can never leave such a player out of your team.

even before eyesight and stuff, Sehwag was not a SENA beast. He did have isolated good knocks in Eng, SA, and was genuinely top-notch in Oz.

[Ultimate_Game]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

even before eyesight and stuff, Sehwag was not a SENA beast. He did have isolated good knocks in Eng, SA, and was genuinely top-notch in Oz.

 

That's what you want. I would take an opener who's a beast in sub-continent and Aus, and can bat decently in Eng and SA. And when he gets in he can take away the match single handedly and can score big. You would want such a player in the team especially when you already have Gavaskar at the other end with Dravid and Tendulkar at 3 and 4.

[sage]

On 8/16/2021 at 3:12 PM, sage said:

Root up to 50.3 now, and Kohli down to 51.3.

So this has ended up decided

 

Kohli finished with 46.85

root is on 51.29

[bsriharsha]

Kohli perfected the art of getting out cheaply during his prime years.