The Brandenburg Gate, Berlin

[zen]

Time to switch on the vacation mode soon therefore unless something interesting comes up, probably my last thread of 2021 on this forum to share an interesting story about the symbol of German division and reunification - The Brandenburg Gate in Berlin: 

 

 

 

I am not sure how India takes care of its precious historical monuments, which are found all over the region. But I hope they are taken care off too to some degree (Not subjected to the lack of funds and so many mouths to feed line). Feel free to use this thread to discuss important monuments in India as well. 

[sandeep]

2 hours ago, zen said:

I am not sure how India takes care of its precious historical monuments, which are found all over the region. But I hope they are taken care off too to some degree

This is a massive sore point for me.  I have not gotten the opportunity to travel much in India, but the places I have been to, I have been bitterly disappointed with the 'care', or lack of.

 

 

[zen]

On 12/6/2021 at 2:54 PM, sandeep said:

This is a massive sore point for me.  I have not gotten the opportunity to travel much in India, but the places I have been to, I have been bitterly disappointed with the 'care', or lack of.

 

 

Talking about not only giving importance to historical and cultural elements but also protecting them for future generations, Europe has even been averse to skyscrapers: 

 

 

Edited December 7, 2021 by zen

[Vijy]

On 12/6/2021 at 2:54 PM, sandeep said:

This is a massive sore point for me.  I have not gotten the opportunity to travel much in India, but the places I have been to, I have been bitterly disappointed with the 'care', or lack of.

 

 

I remember, when I saw the world-class Ajanta-Ellora caves in 1990s, they were being maintained very poorly. must have decayed even more since then.

[sandeep]

11 hours ago, Vijy said:

I remember, when I saw the world-class Ajanta-Ellora caves in 1990s, they were being maintained very poorly. must have decayed even more since then.

I was there in 2010 - the 'facilities' are crap.

 

I generally don't like to use the word '3rd world'.  But it fits.

 

And its a shame, because Ajanta-Ellora are spectacular. I have not traveled much in India, but these caves are our heritage, and an amazing inspirational example of what our ancestors achieved.  Its infuriating to see them the way they are.

Edited December 9, 2021 by sandeep

[sandeep]

On 12/7/2021 at 6:51 PM, zen said:

 

Talking about not only giving importance to historical and cultural elements but also protecting them for future generations, Europe has even been averse to skyscrapers: 

 

 

 

 

There are historical and cultural reasons for that.  Aping this is neither necessary nor applicable in the Indian circumstance.

 

 

[zen]

55 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

There are historical and cultural reasons for that.  Aping this is neither necessary nor applicable in the Indian circumstance.

 

 

Such initiatives display a deep rooted respect for historical and cultural elements, and a population that is willing to give priority to that ... Aping requires brains. India probably cannot even grasp the nuances. First needs to at start maintaining historical places and river systems like Ganga (One does not even need government to do the basics which requires every individual to do his duty. If people care enough, eventually so would the govt). 

Edited December 9, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

53 minutes ago, zen said:

Such initiatives display a deep rooted respect for historical and cultural elements, and a population that is willing to give priority to that ...

 

53 minutes ago, zen said:

Aping requires brains. India probably cannot even grasp the nuances.

 

It also requires money.  How about you google 'Marshall plan', educate yourself and then come back to this 'discussion'.  

 

53 minutes ago, zen said:

First needs to at start maintaining historical places and river systems like Ganga (One does not even need government to do the basics which requires every individual to do his duty. If people care enough, eventually so would the govt). 

 

So now you are in the process of moving goalposts.  You were out here on this thread preaching about the virtue of avoiding skyscrapers on a thread of 'cultural heritage'.  Now it seems you are backing away from that.  Are you doing that? or are you sticking by your critique of skyscrapers for India? 

 

You have recently fallen into the habit of making sweeping 2 + 2 = 22 statements, especially with a cynical bitter take on flaws of "India".  Its fine - everybody is entitled to a multiplicity of opinions.  But let's try and nail down what it is that you are trying to say.  

 

Which specific cities or locations in India, according to Zen baba, should follow the "nuances" of avoiding skyscrapers? And why?  

Edited December 9, 2021 by sandeep

[zen]

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

It also requires money.  How about you google 'Marshall plan', educate yourself and then come back to this 'discussion'.  

 

Marshall plan was to rebuild Western Europe after its destruction in WW2. How to rebuild including making strategic choices to stick to historical roots comes from Western Europe's respect for its culture (It could have gone like let's start with a clean slate, something that the Eastern Bloc attempted by creating many "brutal" structures - Link)

 

 

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

So now you are in the process of moving goalposts.  You were out here on this thread preaching about the virtue of avoiding skyscrapers on a thread of 'cultural heritage'.  Now it seems you are backing away from that.  Are you doing that? or are you sticking by your critique of skyscrapers for India? 

 

The thread is not on skyscrapers. That was an example of how certain countries place importance on their cultural/traditional/historical roots that they even resist building skyscrapers! ... I am simply praising such countries for taking such initiatives!!

 

 

Therefore that has nothing much to do with India in that respect. However, it is a good topic to discuss from a learning perspective - you do not want the Gateway of India (using it as a random example) to be demolished to build some "me too modern" structure or demolish the old Taj Hotel (have fond memories of staying right from the time when I was as a kid) to build a boxy modern structure. Below is an example of a modern town that attempts to blends cultural/historical/traditional elements: 

 

 

 

 

2 hours ago, sandeep said:

Which specific cities or locations in India, according to Zen baba, should follow the "nuances" of avoiding skyscrapers? And why?  

 

As I said the point was to praise certain countries for their priorities.

 

As for your above question, from what I recall, structures 60 years or older are protected in India too! Any block, area, or district with historical/traditional/cultural values should be maintained, adhering to/replicating its original form. 

 

One example is the Jaisalmer Fort. It can be restored using modern technology and sewage system but parts inside it should not be demolished to create incongruent structures: 

 

 

 

The Pink City is another example that tries to (and should) remain close to its roots - Link

 

Another priority is the river systems - whose immediate benefit is health and well being of the ecosystem (I used the word ecosystem to emphasize that humans are a part of the ecosystem, which needs to be preserved for a variety of species, and not above it) ... If a population is merely destroying/ignoring its roots and exploiting resources for its convenience without considerations of future, it is the villain (and not the protector) of the region.  From time to time, I write against these villains so they can be inspired to turn into heroes! 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by zen

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, zen said:

The thread is not on skyscrapers. That was an example of how certain countries place importance on their cultural/traditional/historical roots that they even resist building skyscrapers! ... I am simply praising such countries for taking such initiatives!!

 

Is anybody in India proposing replacing Gateway of India or Jaisalmer fort with skyscrapers?

 

Marshall plan gave away billions of dollars to European countries - you have to have that budgetary ability to care about certain things.  Difficult to do it when you're poor.  That's why most Indians will eat less but spend their savings on children's education vs an extra coat of paint for their homes.  And have to suffer insults from ignorant fools about why is Indian architecture so 'unattractive'.   

 

You are backtracking now, after throwing around blanket statements about India - "aping requires brains".  "Indians lack nuance" and other such nonsense.  

 

 

[sandeep]

1 hour ago, zen said:

Below is an example of a modern town that blends cultural/historical/traditional elements: 

 

A fool's paradise boondoggle in the sahara desert, that only got built because of massive subsidies from Emirati sheikhs, and is mostly all hype instead of substance.

 

Not at all an example to be emulated.  And where exactly do you find "cultural/historical/traditional" elements in this?  Because a few of the corridors have pseudo-islamic lattices? 

Edited December 9, 2021 by sandeep

[zen]

37 minutes ago, sandeep said:

 

Is anybody in India proposing replacing Gateway of India or Jaisalmer fort with skyscrapers?

 

Marshall plan gave away billions of dollars to European countries - you have to have that budgetary ability to care about certain things.  Difficult to do it when you're poor.  That's why most Indians will eat less but spend their savings on children's education vs an extra coat of paint for their homes.  And have to suffer insults from ignorant fools about why is Indian architecture so 'unattractive'.   

 

You are backtracking now, after throwing around blanket statements about India - "aping requires brains".  "Indians lack nuance" and other such nonsense.  

 

 

As I said, I was only praising these countries for respecting their culture/traditions. You said that India does not need to ape - well, to even ape a country needs brains and understand the nuances, and not at least go on around polluting/garbaging like villains of the land! 

 

Tons of infrastructure projects are being created in India. There was a thread here where the road broke instead of the coconut during inauguration. What's next? Do not have money to build stronger roads?  

 

35 minutes ago, sandeep said:

A fool's paradise boondoggle in the sahara desert, that only got built because of massive subsidies from Emirati sheikhs, and is mostly all hype instead of substance.

 

Not at all an example to be emulated.  And where exactly do you find "cultural/historical/traditional" elements in this?  Because a few of the corridors have pseudo-islamic lattices? 

 

It is from that culture's PoV. 

 

[Vijy]

10 hours ago, sandeep said:

I was there in 2010 - the 'facilities' are crap.

 

I generally don't like to use the word '3rd world'.  But it fits.

 

And its a shame, because Ajanta-Ellora are spectacular. I have not traveled much in India, but these caves are our heritage, and an amazing inspirational example of what our ancestors achieved.  Its infuriating to see them the way they are.

they are indeed some of the greatest human-made works (of art & architecture) I've seen. A shame that they are so neglected.

[ravishingravi]

Spent a good chunk of one month in Berlin. Yes the museums and historic monuments are something to behold. One can retrace the origins of modern liberal order and narratives. It’s beautiful city.  

Edited December 10, 2021 by ravishingravi

[ravishingravi]

India has many great sites. Some are well maintained and some not. For instance, Rani ki vav in Gujarat beats any place I have seen in recent times. 
 

 

Edited December 10, 2021 by ravishingravi

[ravishingravi]

Meenakshi temple 

 

 

[zen]

8 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

India has many great sites. Some are well maintained and some not. For instance, Rani ki vav in Gujarat beats any place I have seen in recent times. 

 

 

8 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

Meenakshi temple 

 

Astonishing architecture! Good to see it in relatively good shape! 

[ravishingravi]

Don’t miss a chance to go here if possible. Karnataka might well be the most gifted state. 
 

 

[ravishingravi]

And countless others in Maharashtra. I haven't seen forts outside India that come even remotely close to intricacy and genius of the forts in India,

 

 

[Mariyam]

@ravishingravi

I've been to Lohagad. As a part of a school trek. And it was treated as such: a trek.

 

The "intricacy and the genius" of the fort, as you mention was lost on everyone. Even on our guide and the teacher who took us.

 

My general understanding is, that promoting tourism (as @zen wants to, in the OP) and preserving culture do not have as much of an overlap as you guys are making it out to be.

Yes, out cultural historical sites should be preserved. Even if there is no scope of revenue generation through tourism.

 

But tourism is only going to flourish where people have something to do. Baga, McLeodganj, Udaipur, Allepy and Leh will always do better revenue than a Meenaxi temple or a Taj Mahal or a Lohagad.