"Slip Of Tongue": Former Pakistan Skipper Disagrees With Rohit Sharma Terming Ravichandran Ashwin An "All-Time Great"

[Jay]

42 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Country Great ?? They are 

 

All time Greats?? For that you need match winning performance overseas which only Warne and Murali has.

 

 

Murali is a chucker though. 

Did Warne really excel on his own? Mcgrath played a huge role imo. And Gillespie. They open the floodgates. Warne then proceeds to rattle the MO as now they would be forced to attack him. 

 

It's hard to compare spinners if you don't have the same quality of pacers to support you. It's a team game for a reason. 

[Majestic]

4 minutes ago, Jay said:

Murali is a chucker though. 

Did Warne really excel on his own? Mcgrath played a huge role imo. And Gillespie. They open the floodgates. Warne then proceeds to rattle the MO as now they would be forced to attack him. 

 

It's hard to compare spinners if you don't have the same quality of pacers to support you. It's a team game for a reason. 

Ashwin does have support- Bumrah and Shami. But what does he do overseas? Averages a lolworthy 40 there.

 

Actually Kumble is the one who lacked support. Took 8 wickets on a flat wicket in Sydney against a GOAT batting lineup with no support.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Majestic

[Jay]

4 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Ashwin does have support- Bumrah and Shami. But what does he do overseas? Averages a lolworthy 40 there.

 

Actually Kumble is the one who lacked support. Took 8 wickets on a flat wicket in Sydney against a GOAT batting lineup with no support.

Fair enough. I am ok with people not labelling him as an ATG. I believe he is one but his performances were poor in s.africa and england. Warne performed badly in India and Pakistan right ? Every bowler has a couple of teams they underpform against. 

[Lord]

6 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Ashwin does have support- Bumrah and Shami. But what does he do overseas? Averages a lolworthy 40 there.

 

Actually Kumble is the one who lacked support. Took 8 wickets on a flat wicket in Sydney against a GOAT batting lineup with no support.

except he was defending 700. Ashwin and others are regularly defending subpar scores overseas

[Jay]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

except he was defending 700. Ashwin and others are regularly defending subpar scores overseas

Good point. 

[Majestic]

5 minutes ago, Lord said:

except he was defending 700. Ashwin and others are regularly defending subpar scores overseas

Then why the other bowlers didn't take any wicket. Kumble took all of the 8 wickets in that match on a flat wicket against a GOAT batting lineup.

 

Ashwin's stats are also hugely inflated by the performance in Australia  2018 where the batting of the home team was not even international standards with no Smith,Warner or Marnus.

[Lord]

1 minute ago, Majestic said:

Then why the other bowlers didn't take any wicket. Kumble took all of the 8 wickets in that match on a flat wicket against a GOAT batting lineup.

 

Ashwin's stats are also hugely inflated by the performance in Australia  2018 where the batting of the home team was not even international standards with no Smith,Warner or Marnus.

 

other spinner was Murali Kartik

 

Zak was missing too IIRC. 

 

Ashwin played only one Test in 2018 series

[Majestic]

@Jay @Lord The major point here is bowling support. Ashwin has that bowling support overseas which past Indian bowlers never had. Kapil, Srinath, Kumble and Zaheer simply didn't had. 

 

Ashwin producing worse figures than Kumble in SENA even with the presence of Bumrah, Shami etc as pacers tells us all we have to conclude about. One need to understand that in this era, the thing with SENA is also that these are the four of the best five teams of this generation and you have to produce great figures against atleast one or two of the top teams away from home. Ashwin didn't had against any of the SENA team away.

 

Murali and Warne have numerous fi-fers against top teams of their generation away from home. Can you list down the great performances of Ashwin against top teams away from home? That's a pretty simple metric right here.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Majestic

[Jay]

11 minutes ago, Majestic said:

@Jay @Lord The major point here is bowling support. Ashwin has that bowling support overseas which past Indian bowlers never had. Kapil, Srinath, Kumble and Zaheer simply didn't had. 

 

Ashwin producing worse figures than Kumble in SENA even with the presence of Bumrah, Shami etc as pacers tells us all we have to conclude about. One need to understand that in this era, the thing with SENA is also that these are the four of the best five teams of this generation and you have to produce great figures against atleast one or two of the top teams away from home. Ashwin didn't had against any of the SENA team away.

 

Murali and Warne have numerous fi-fers against top teams of their generation away from home. Can you list down the great performances of Ashwin against top teams away from home? That's a pretty simple metric right here.

It's hard to get so many wickets when Indian pace attack is so relentless and ruthless. best attack since 2015. However you make a valid point. Kumble might have mutilated some of these teams with boom shami and siraj to support him. Each to their own I guess. Both are quality.

[Majestic]

37 minutes ago, Jay said:

It's hard to get so many wickets when Indian pace attack is so relentless and ruthless. best attack since 2015. However you make a valid point. Kumble might have mutilated some of these teams with boom shami and siraj to support him. Each to their own I guess. Both are quality.

Lol, you are saying as if Ashwin has got a great average in SENA with bowl. He averages 40 there, doesn't have a great performance away from home against any top team. Pretty easy to disregard him from ATG status.

Edited March 12, 2022 by Majestic

[Lord]

51 minutes ago, Majestic said:

@Jay @Lord The major point here is bowling support. Ashwin has that bowling support overseas which past Indian bowlers never had. Kapil, Srinath, Kumble and Zaheer simply didn't had. 

 

Ashwin producing worse figures than Kumble in SENA even with the presence of Bumrah, Shami etc as pacers tells us all we have to conclude about. One need to understand that in this era, the thing with SENA is also that these are the four of the best five teams of this generation and you have to produce great figures against atleast one or two of the top teams away from home. Ashwin didn't had against any of the SENA team away.

 

Murali and Warne have numerous fi-fers against top teams of their generation away from home. Can you list down the great performances of Ashwin against top teams away from home? That's a pretty simple metric right here.

 

Warne struggled in India where he was expected to lead the attack. SENA he had great support from pace attack.

 

Murali struggled in India and Aus. Average 75 in Aus. Ashwin not this bad anywhere.

 

Anyway nobody claiming Ashwin is better than these two. But everyone has holes in their career

 

 

[Jay]

23 minutes ago, Majestic said:

Lol, you are saying as if Ashwin has got a great average in SENA with bowl. He averages 40 there, doesn't have a great performance away from home against any top team. Pretty easy to disregard him from ATG status.

What about Warne abd Murali in India? 

[Majestic]

15 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Warne struggled in India where he was expected to lead the attack. SENA he had great support from pace attack.

 

Murali struggled in India and Aus. Average 75 in Aus. Ashwin not this bad anywhere.

 

Anyway nobody claiming Ashwin is better than these two. But everyone has holes in their career

 

 

India is only one top country. SENA are four top nations.

 

Warne has great performances vs top teams away from home.

 

Murali has great performances vs top teams away from home.

 

What are Ashwin's great performances vs top teams away from home?

 

That is a major metric for ATG status. Ashwin doesn't need to perform in all countries but he should have some memorable performances vs top teams away from home. Currently, his averages are:-

 

Australia -40

South Africa - 50

New Zealand - 33

England - 28

England vs England - 33

Pakistan - DNB

 

Not one of the top 5 teams, he has a great average. That disqualifies him from ATG status. 

 

[Majestic]

3 minutes ago, Jay said:

What about Warne abd Murali in India? 

What?? Saqlain averages 20 in India so he is better than Murali and Warne both?? You can fail in one or two country, no one will have the country wise average great in all countries unless you are a GOD worshipper.

[Jay]

3 minutes ago, Majestic said:

What?? Saqlain averages 20 in India so he is better than Murali and Warne both?? You can fail in one or two country, no one will have the country wise average great in all countries unless you are a GOD worshipper.

So how many did ash fail relative to current spinners. There needs to be context? Even in sena isn't his average up there with the best amongst current spinners? 

[Nikola]

2 hours ago, Jay said:

Fair enough. I am ok with people not labelling him as an ATG. I believe he is one but his performances were poor in s.africa and england. Warne performed badly in India and Pakistan right ? Every bowler has a couple of teams they underpform against. 

 

Warne did well in asia except india. He has good performance against pakistan both in Pakistan & UAE. He didn't do that well in India & WI where he averaged around 40.

[Lord]

 

[vvvslaxman]

4 hours ago, Majestic said:

Country Great ?? They are 

 

All time Greats?? For that you need match winning performance overseas which only Warne and Murali has.

 

 

 

Both have their own achilles heels. We don't run them down.

[vvvslaxman]

3 hours ago, Majestic said:

@Jay @Lord The major point here is bowling support. Ashwin has that bowling support overseas which past Indian bowlers never had. Kapil, Srinath, Kumble and Zaheer simply didn't had. 

 

Ashwin producing worse figures than Kumble in SENA even with the presence of Bumrah, Shami etc as pacers tells us all we have to conclude about. One need to understand that in this era, the thing with SENA is also that these are the four of the best five teams of this generation and you have to produce great figures against atleast one or two of the top teams away from home. Ashwin didn't had against any of the SENA team away.

 

Murali and Warne have numerous fi-fers against top teams of their generation away from home. Can you list down the great performances of Ashwin against top teams away from home? That's a pretty simple metric right here.

 

In this ERA with this bowling line up of India not many spinners in the world will have spectacular numbers. There is no way spinners will have a chance to outbowl all 4 seamers in SENA.  Besides how can you say Ashwin failed in New zealand. He has played a grand total of one innings in New zealand.  3 for 99. In that match he comfortably outbowled Bumrah and Shami.   Technically only one place where he was not that effective was South Africa.  With 4 dropped chances of Ashwin's bowling in one innings in SA probably did not help his stat. Otherwise he is better than a 50 average bowler in SA.  You don't have enough sample or context to run him down.  Even in the most recent series  South Africa hardly used Maharaja.  In Test championship final also there was zero scope for any spinners. Yet he bowled decently.

[Jay]

34 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said:

 

In this ERA with this bowling line up of India not many spinners in the world will have spectacular numbers. There is no way spinners will have a chance to outbowl all 4 seamers in SENA.  Besides how can you say Ashwin failed in New zealand. He has played a grand total of one innings in New zealand.  3 for 99. In that match he comfortably outbowled Bumrah and Shami.   Technically only one place where he was not that effective was South Africa.  With 4 dropped chances of Ashwin's bowling in one innings in SA probably did not help his stat. Otherwise he is better than a 50 average bowler in SA.  You don't have enough sample or context to run him down.  Even in the most recent series  South Africa hardly used Maharaja.  In Test championship final also there was zero scope for any spinners. Yet he bowled decently.

ashwin

chandra

jaddu

kumble

prasanna

 

they need to battle it out.