Good old familiar LOI scorecard!

[Vijy]

Just now, putrevus said:

Show me one odi 100 by any Indian batsman on tough wicket in knock out matches in last  30  years? 

there's no one - closest was Gambhir and Dhoni in 2011 WC. thanks for proving my point about how bad Ind LOI batting is. we have never been a strong No. 1 team in ODIs, whereas in tests there was at least a period of 2-3 years where we were a genuine world no. 1 team (even though we lacked the dominance of Oz/WI).

 

Ind cricket has a bunch of mediocre, mentally weak players. Stat padders who pad their resume by playing bilaterals and on flat pitches. If this will not change, do not expect any more trophies.

[putrevus]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

there's no one - closest was Gambhir and Dhoni in 2011 WC. thanks for proving my point about how bad Ind LOI batting is. we have never been a strong No. 1 team in ODIs, whereas in tests there was at least a period of 2-3 years where we were a genuine world no. 1 team (even though we lacked the dominance of Oz/WI).

 

Ind cricket has a bunch of mediocre, mentally weak players. Stat padders who pad their resume by playing bilaterals and on flat pitches. If this will not change, do not expect any more trophies.

You are proving my point, the biggest matches which India won 2011 needed help from middle order. And you are stuck on top three .It is a team game where other players are allowed to contribute.

 

Overexpecation from fans is not players fault. 

 

 

 

[Lord]

7 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You are proving my point, the biggest matches which India won 2011 needed help from middle order. And you are stuck on top three .It is a team game where other players are allowed to contribute.

 

Overexpecation from fans is not players fault. 

 

 

 

 

Sachin scored 50s in both QF and SF, Gambhir scored 50 in QF and 90 in finals

 

its not as same as being 20/3 and leaving it entirely to middle order.

[Vijy]

2 minutes ago, putrevus said:

You are proving my point, the biggest matches which India won 2011 needed help from middle order. And you are stuck on top three .It is a team game where other players are allowed to contribute.

 

Overexpecation from fans is not players fault. 

 

 

 

Agree that middle order needs to pull its weight as well.

 

Gambhir was not "middle order" though - he came in at no. 3 and played the most crucial knock of the chase. at least one of our top 3 stood up in 2 major titles since 1983. in the 2007 T20, it was gambhir (top order) and then it was him again in 2011. likewise, we need at least one of the top 3 to step up in KOs (assuming we make it to that stage), otherwise we can kiss chances of winning goodbye.

 

We do need to improve our middle order. I miss the days when we had Yuvi, Dhoni, Raina. However, I don't see any need to give top order a free pass either, especially because at least one of the top 3 needs to fire big time IMO since our middle order cannot pull off wins by itself.

 

[Vijy]

1 minute ago, Lord said:

 

Sachin scored 50s in both QF and SF, Gambhir scored 50 in QF and 90 in finals

 

its not as same as being 20/3 and leaving it entirely to middle order.

yes, and this is likely to happen if we come up against a left-armer in particular. If we play NZ in KOs, we might as well as just hand over the match to them because of: (a) mental block, and (b) inability to handle boult's two-way swing.

[Vijy]

19 minutes ago, Lord said:

and specially if its a left arm seamer swinging it. This problem has not been rectified in 5 years

yep, and many teams have at least one player who could prove a danger to us. Shaheen (Pak), Topless... oops Topley (Eng), Boult (NZ), Fizz (Bang), and so on

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Sachin scored 50s in both QF and SF, Gambhir scored 50 in QF and 90 in finals

 

its not as same as being 20/3 and leaving it entirely to middle order.

Those matches were played in India where new ball does very little and still early wickets fell.,They did not have QFs. They were the best team in leagues phase in 2015 and one of the best in 2019. They had to play next day and they just lost by few runs.

 

Yes  they should  have won in 2019 , but common stop this nonsense that that one match or two matches define their careers. England middle order led by Stokes and Butler had to bail them out in that 2019 finals incase you forgot.

 

Dhawan was injured and Rahul was the opener. Dhawan has been the best player in ICC tournaments.

[putrevus]

9 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Agree that middle order needs to pull its weight as well.

 

Gambhir was not "middle order" though - he came in at no. 3 and played the most crucial knock of the chase. at least one of our top 3 stood up in 2 major titles since 1983. in the 2007 T20, it was gambhir (top order) and then it was him again in 2011. likewise, we need at least one of the top 3 to step up in KOs (assuming we make it to that stage), otherwise we can kiss chances of winning goodbye.

 

We do need to improve our middle order. I miss the days when we had Yuvi, Dhoni, Raina. However, I don't see any need to give top order a free pass either, especially because at least one of the top 3 needs to fire big time IMO since our middle order cannot pull off wins by itself.

 

 Top three failing should not be death knell especially in small chases.It just shows how much the team depended on those guys. They never had any help.

[Lord]

8 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Those matches were played in India where new ball does very little and still early wickets fell.,They did not have QFs. They were the best team in leagues phase in 2015 and one of the best in 2019. They had to play next day and they just lost by few runs.

 

that was due to efforts of middle order not top 3.

8 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Yes  they should  have won in 2019 , but common stop this nonsense that that one match or two matches define their careers. England middle order led by Stokes and Butler had to bail them out in that 2019 finals incase you forgot.

 

Its more than 2 matches for sure. Also big matches matter more than ones you can afford to lose.

 

England weren't in such bad position though. And the top order had fired in semi.

8 minutes ago, putrevus said:

 

Dhawan was injured and Rahul was the opener. Dhawan has been the best player in ICC tournaments.

Dhawan also has not made any big score in ICC knockouts. I dont even remember a 50. Though I agree hes better than Rohit(sans BD) and Rahul.Kohli used to great till 2016 but since then regularly failing.

[zen]

26 minutes ago, Vijy said:

yes, and this is likely to happen if we come up against a left-armer in particular. If we play NZ in KOs, we might as well as just hand over the match to them because of: (a) mental block, and (b) inability to handle boult's two-way swing.

 

Guys in the current top order, Rohit & Kohli have been playing since 2007 & 2009 respectively. Have played over 200 games. Focused on just one aspect of cricket. Occupy the best batting slots. Supposed to be the best or most experienced batsmen in the side. 

 

And still Ind ends up with 20/3 kind of situation, putting the relatively inexperienced and power hitters under immense pressure. 

 

Next - Bumrah, Bhuvi, & Yuzi, the specialist bowlers go for big runs, and some folks blame the 5-6th bowler for not picking up wkts  

Edited July 15, 2022 by zen

[Vijy]

Just now, zen said:

 

Guys in the current top order, Rohit & Kohli have been playing since 2007 & 2009 respectively. Have played over 200 games. Focused on just one aspect of cricket. Occupy the best batting slots. Supposed to be the best bowlers in the side. 

 

And still Ind ends up with 20/3 kind of situation, putting the relatively inexperienced and power hitters under immense pressure. 

 

Next - Bumrah, Bhuvi, & Yuzi, the specialist bowlers go for big runs, and we blame the 5-6th bowler for not picking up wkts  

bumrah has gone missing in quite a few important matches. and Yuzi was thrashed around quite a lot in 2017 CT iirc. I don't remember much about Boobi either way.

 

our bowling is also in need of fixing, at least insofar as identifying bowlers who don't crumble under pressure is concerned.

[putrevus]

2 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

that was due to efforts of middle order not top 3.

 

Its more than 2 matches for sure. Also big matches matter more than ones you can afford to lose.

 

England weren't in such bad position though. And the top order had fired in semi.

Dhawan also has not made any big score in ICC knockouts. I dont even remember a 50. Though I agree hes better than Rohit(sans BD) and Rahul.Kohli used to great till 2016 but since then regularly failing.

2017 CT england failed in semi and India won in semis (rohit scored 100 and Kohli 96)  but you were only  talking about CT2017 finals. If Rohit or Kohli were well set they would not need anyone else.

 

They never got help when they failed that is the point. 

[zen]

1 minute ago, Vijy said:

bumrah has gone missing in quite a few important matches. and Yuzi was thrashed around quite a lot in 2017 CT iirc. I don't remember much about Boobi either way.

 

our bowling is also in need of fixing, at least insofar as identifying bowlers who don't crumble under pressure is concerned.

 

Specialist should be  highly accountable. If you bat in the top 3-4 or picked among the top 3-4 bowlers, you are highly accountable for the only skill (and experience where applicable) that you bring. 

 

 

[Lord]

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

2017 CT england failed in semi and India won in semis (rohit scored 100 and Kohli 96)  but you were only  talking about CT2017 finals. If Rohit or Kohli were well set they would not need anyone else.

that was v Bangladesh. I'm not doubting their capabilities v teams like BD.

 

Before you say they reached SF, so did Kenya in 2003 WC. Such teams can have good league phase but are almost sure to fail under big match pressure.

1 minute ago, putrevus said:

 

They never got help when they failed that is the point. 

 

If even one of them stayed, and then MO failed to help him,you'd have a point. All failing is not a case of not getting help,but leaving it entirely to MO.

[Adamant]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

yes, when they win trophies, I will remember them. not some sh**ty bilaterals. that's my choice.

They've won trophies too. 

A CT, A world cup and a t20 world cup between three of them, not to mention a bunch of asia cups.

Again you won't remember that. 

 

That might be your choice or thought , but it's wrong, that's what matters. 

 

 

[Adamant]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

 

I have not seen this trio score 100s in KOs of world tournaments on tough pitches (with 1-2 exceptions)

So the filter here is KO of world tournaments and not just that but also tough pitches. 

 

Well then looks like no Indian batsman ever qualifies. 

Your standards are too high bro, kudos. 

[putrevus]

13 minutes ago, Lord said:

that was v Bangladesh. I'm not doubting their capabilities v teams like BD.

 

Before you say they reached SF, so did Kenya in 2003 WC. Such teams can have good league phase but are almost sure to fail under big match pressure.

 

If even one of them stayed, and then MO failed to help him,you'd have a point. All failing is not a case of not getting help,but leaving it entirely to MO.

They did not fail in CT finals or 2019 semis because they could not handle pressure. They failed due to combination of technical issues and bowling. It happens in cricket that is two matches, in my book that does not define them

 

Sachin does not become a bad  player if Dhoni and Gambhir did not score those runs in 2011. One or two matches however important don't define careers of great players.

 

Quick question when can we expect middle order and guy like Pandya to be match winners for lousy bilaterals as many of the geniuses here seem to term them.

Edited July 15, 2022 by putrevus

[Adamant]

1 hour ago, Vijy said:

if there is a KO in a world tournament, this trio will go missing. as simple as that.

Again, just bcoz your memory doesn't help you doesn't mean you are talking facts. 

 

Ct 13 final, Ct 13 SF. 

World t20 14 semifinal, finals. 

World t20 16, quarter final, semifinal. 

WC 15 quarterfinal. 

 

Again as I said you won't remember that. 

[Adamant]

51 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Sachin scored 50s in both QF and SF, Gambhir scored 50 in QF and 90 in finals

 

its not as same as being 20/3 and leaving it entirely to middle order.

Haha the less said about Sachins knock in the SF the better. 

[Adamant]

26 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

that was due to efforts of middle order not top 3

The fact is  that we reached the semis just bcoz of our top 3.