Affirmative action review

[BacktoCricaddict]

The real enemy is legacy admissions, not affirmative action for African-Americans. My guess is that the privileged people you are talking about are legacy admissions or, being wealthy, made a huge donation to the school and got in, not simply due to being Latinos. How come a Latino child with a 1500 SAT from my daughter's school couldn't get into Harvard?  If it was simply a Latino-thing, they would've got in as well.

[bharathh]

1 hour ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

The real enemy is legacy admissions, not affirmative action for African-Americans. My guess is that the privileged people you are talking about are legacy admissions or, being wealthy, made a huge donation to the school and got in, not simply due to being Latinos. How come a Latino child with a 1500 SAT from my daughter's school couldn't get into Harvard?  If it was simply a Latino-thing, they would've got in as well.

 

I don't know what % of admissions are legacy vs non-legacy to be able to comment on that. 

 

However, just because you are Latino doesn't mean that you don't need to fill out the admission form. Perhaps the essays were bad? Maybe a bad interview? 

 

The point I am making is that the SAT scores are a filter for whites and asians. However, they are not for the rest. In fact, Black ppl esp get an undue advantage just due to their skin colour - which is a load of crock. Regardless, going with an evaluation criteria such as race is classic racism. Affirmative action in the first place is racism. People can spin whatever bull they want to about it - those that deserve to get in - should get in. 

 

If the system really needs to change, get people the training they deserve for the filtering criteria. It's like gender specific hiring today. That is wrong. However, helping women and other non-males compete (only for those that are truly under-privileged) by helping them ameliorate their skills to perform better is good. In my org we take in women who have been out of the industry for a while due to family or other commitments and non-males into a program which provides them crash courses to build their skills and then put them through an internship program and then interview them. 

 

There are more scholarships and grants for Black Americans than any other race/ethnicity. They still moan and cry and perform poorly compared to others. Seen this through the 6 years I studied in the states. Didn't see anything change in the 8 years I was there after. Always the victim. IMO, Latinos aren't as bad - but they also get a disproportionate amount of aid and race based advantages compared to the others. 

[ravishingravi]

Good discussion on legacy admission, the real issues and long term implications. But this is another reason for me India will never be any more than middle income country. The ability to make major jusgements in short period of time and move forward is what differentiates 

 

 

 

[Khota]

3 hours ago, bharathh said:

?

 

Please read my prev post properly regarding what affirmative action should focus on. Don't post for the sake of it. 

 

And not all Latinos or Blacks are poor. In fact, most Blacks and Latinos that get into big schools are from the privileged class. They get in only because of race - not because they belong there. The privileged class from Central and South America take full advantage of this "race" ruling. Those ppl are not underprivileged in any way. Many of my sister's classmates in Honduras who scored 1200 on SAT got into Ivy Leagues with scholarships while she couldn't with a 1560 because she was of Indian origin. This race thing rarely if ever helped the local Latinos. 

 

 

The system is not 100% fool proof but by and large it helps the underprivileged students. Take a look at Clarence Thomas, who is a product of affirmative action.

 

Sorry about your sister but before blaming Latinos and Blacks for that, check the score of Trump's kids who got into UPenn because of legacy. I bet they never hit 1500 on SAT. 

 

I don't want to get into SAT but that is another problem test.

[BacktoCricaddict]

1 hour ago, bharathh said:

 

I don't know what % of admissions are legacy vs non-legacy to be able to comment on that. 

 

However, just because you are Latino doesn't mean that you don't need to fill out the admission form. Perhaps the essays were bad? Maybe a bad interview? 

 

The point I am making is that the SAT scores are a filter for whites and asians. However, they are not for the rest. In fact, Black ppl esp get an undue advantage just due to their skin colour - which is a load of crock. Regardless, going with an evaluation criteria such as race is classic racism. Affirmative action in the first place is racism. People can spin whatever bull they want to about it - those that deserve to get in - should get in. 

 

If the system really needs to change, get people the training they deserve for the filtering criteria. It's like gender specific hiring today. That is wrong. However, helping women and other non-males compete (only for those that are truly under-privileged) by helping them ameliorate their skills to perform better is good. In my org we take in women who have been out of the industry for a while due to family or other commitments and non-males into a program which provides them crash courses to build their skills and then put them through an internship program and then interview them. 

 

There are more scholarships and grants for Black Americans than any other race/ethnicity. They still moan and cry and perform poorly compared to others. Seen this through the 6 years I studied in the states. Didn't see anything change in the 8 years I was there after. Always the victim. IMO, Latinos aren't as bad - but they also get a disproportionate amount of aid and race based advantages compared to the others. 

 

It is best not to comment on individual admissions decisions, stop using anecdotes, and look at the big picture.

 

And the big picture, from my perspective as a college professor who helps with admissions, is that 

(a) there have never been any quotas

(b) affirmative action is a mechanism to consider race as one factor among many others while making tough admissions decisions. Race may only considered in toss-up situations.

 

It is unfortunate that you have not met any African American kids or Latino kids who work their tails off, support their families while going to school, and are absolutely grateful for their opportunities even when they are under the weight of still being discriminated against wherever they go - and they likely would not have received that opportunity despite fully deserving it if not for affirmative action. My anecdotes vs yours.

 

It's the trust-fund babies and legacy-privileged that you should be protesting against. 

 

 

 

[G_B_]

Nothing ever is an even playing field.

 

One can argue kids from the usa getting into debt from college only to compete with h1bs around the world from socialised education societies is a big disadvantage.

 

The biggest issue for black people is immigration to the usa from places like india and china who squeeze them out of white collar jobs.

 

If i was a black leader, i would call for very tight immigration controld from asia especially.

 

If you want to massively uplift the black community you need to employ like 15 million or so in solidly white collad trades.

 

Affirmative action where a creamy layer gets in not change the status quo.

 

[bharathh]

11 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

It is best not to comment on individual admissions decisions, stop using anecdotes, and look at the big picture.

 

And the big picture, from my perspective as a college professor who helps with admissions, is that 

(a) there have never been any quotas

(b) affirmative action is a mechanism to consider race as one factor among many others while making tough admissions decisions. Race may only considered in toss-up situations.

 

It is unfortunate that you have not met any African American kids or Latino kids who work their tails off, support their families while going to school, and are absolutely grateful for their opportunities even when they are under the weight of still being discriminated against wherever they go - and they likely would not have received that opportunity despite fully deserving it if not for affirmative action. My anecdotes vs yours.

 

It's the trust-fund babies and legacy-privileged that you should be protesting against. 

 

 

 

 

I agree. However, I find it strange you said that given that you were the one that brought in an anecdote of a Latino you know that didn't get in despite her scores. 

 

As I said, I would like to know the % of admissions that are due to legacy before crying about it. 

[bharathh]

11 hours ago, Khota said:

The system is not 100% fool proof but by and large it helps the underprivileged students. Take a look at Clarence Thomas, who is a product of affirmative action.

 

Sorry about your sister but before blaming Latinos and Blacks for that, check the score of Trump's kids who got into UPenn because of legacy. I bet they never hit 1500 on SAT. 

 

I don't want to get into SAT but that is another problem test.

 

 

As I have said before - we are still crying about affirmative action many generations after it came into play. Clearly it doesn't work. One name here or the other does not hide the number of people who are prevented from achieving their potential due to affirmative action. 

 

This article is quite illuminating. https://uncf.org/the-latest/african-americans-and-college-education-by-the-numbers#:~:text=Among students enrolled in four,lowest completion rate at 40%.

 

Less than 46% of Black students complete graduation despite being given preference in admissions due to their skin colour. Clearly, they are unsuitable and unprepared for the courses they are given preferential treatment to. Instead there should be more efforts to get them the opportunities to compete at a school level.  Despite the positive discrimination in their favour, they are not able to take advantage of this. If Black people feel they are a community - they need to work on this. They can't keep living at the expense of others who are better suited to education.

 

I don't see any Black ppl complaining about the overrepresentation of them in sports. That comes down to a lack of exposure, role models, and opportunities for other communities to take up sports as well. Noone is clamouring for that. All this PC bull is just that. People should stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes. 

 

 

[ravishingravi]

2 hours ago, bharathh said:

 

I agree. However, I find it strange you said that given that you were the one that brought in an anecdote of a Latino you know that didn't get in despite her scores. 

 

As I said, I would like to know the % of admissions that are due to legacy before crying about it. 

 

Legacy admission in % is minor factor but in $ is major factor. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

6 hours ago, bharathh said:

 

I agree. However, I find it strange you said that given that you were the one that brought in an anecdote of a Latino you know that didn't get in despite her scores. 

 

As I said, I would like to know the % of admissions that are due to legacy before crying about it. 

  

6 hours ago, bharathh said:

 

I agree. However, I find it strange you said that given that you were the one that brought in an anecdote of a Latino you know that didn't get in despite her scores. 

 

As I said, I would like to know the % of admissions that are due to legacy before crying about it. 

 

(a) It was in response to your anecdote about your family. So, if I was to invoke my inner 5-yr old ... "you did it first."

 

(b) Legacy numbers (does not even include "donation" seats):

 

Quote

At those colleges, the share of legacy students in this year’s freshman class averaged 12%. The lowest share was at Rice University in Houston, where 4% of this year’s first-year class had legacy status. The University of Notre Dame said legacy students have averaged 23% of the student body over the past decade.

 

Legacy students outnumbered Black students in freshman classes at four schools: Notre Dame, Cornell, Dartmouth and the University of Southern California. At Brown, the share of legacy and Black students was about even.

 

https://apnews.com/article/college-admissions-congress-lifestyle-race-and-ethnicity-racial-injustice-7e2589841fa08189854e393aff1d59fd. Note that, with legacy, not only do these students have other inherent advantages due to their wealth (private schools, paid extracurriculars, tutoring for coursework and admissions tests etc etc), but legacy gives them another leg up. 

 

Given that there are no quotas, I don't think we know the exact percentage of affirmative action seats.  And in the case of your anecdote, there is probably a good chance the wealthy Latino kids got in because they were wealthy, not just because they were Latino; in other words, the competition was between them and other wealthies, not your family member.

[BacktoCricaddict]

4 hours ago, ravishingravi said:

 

Legacy admission in % is minor factor but in $ is major factor. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

https://uncf.org/the-latest/african-americans-and-college-education-by-the-numbers#:~:text=Among students enrolled in four,lowest completion rate at 40%.
 

Quote

 

Barriers to graduating from college for some African American students is evidenced by the relatively low retention rates of Black students across the nation. Among students enrolled in four-year public institutions, 45.9% of Black students complete their degrees in six years—the lowest rate compared to other races and ethnicities. Black men have the lowest completion rate at 40%.

 

This high dropout rate is partially due to the fact that 65% of African American college students are independent, meaning they must balance pursuing a degree with full-time work and family responsibilities.

 

In fact, UNCF has found that students at HBCUs borrow more than students from non-HBCUs because African American families generally have lower assets and incomes that limit their ability to contribute toward college expenses.

 

Let ponder the 2 red parts for a bit.

 

I hope that, after reading that, there will be no more doubt that African Americans' dropout rate is higher because of their life-situation, not lack of ability. It is an absolutely cattle-excrement to insinuate that education is not for African Americans, as has been done above. You put someone in college who is extremely capable of success, but has no family support, how would you expect them to succeed? 

[bharathh]

7 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

 

It says partially. Are we saying that all asians, latinos and ppl from other ethnicities are not independent. You are entitled to your opinion... But let's not make up things. 

 

Also, if black ppl are as good as everyone else this ruling should make no difference to their admission chances. So not sure what we are discussing here anymore. 

Edited July 2, 2023 by bharathh

[BacktoCricaddict]

2 hours ago, bharathh said:

It says partially. Are we saying that all asians, latinos and ppl from other ethnicities are not independent. You are entitled to your opinion... But let's not make up things. 

 

Also, if black ppl are as good as everyone else this ruling should make no difference to their admission chances. So not sure what we are discussing here anymore. 

You imply that they are not cut out for education and that is patently false. Black people who immigrated by choice from Africa are successful. *https://news.ku.edu/2020/06/18/study-shows-african-immigrants-do-well-despite-differences-among-them). 

 

However, as discussed her many times, slave descendants  face unique inter-generational challenges due to their subjugation during and after slavery. This has set them back even more than immigrants. 

 

So, giving them more opportunities to rise above their circumstances and a support system to help them thrive once they are there is necessary.

 

In addition, you are correct that their upliftment must start much earlier in their lives. In my opinion, all of this is necessary and synergistic.  The more of them reach their intellectual and academic potential with downstream opportunities, the more of them will be role models for those who want to follow, and change trickles upstream. 

[Khota]

20 hours ago, bharathh said:

 

 

As I have said before - we are still crying about affirmative action many generations after it came into play. Clearly it doesn't work. One name here or the other does not hide the number of people who are prevented from achieving their potential due to affirmative action. 

 

This article is quite illuminating. https://uncf.org/the-latest/african-americans-and-college-education-by-the-numbers#:~:text=Among students enrolled in four,lowest completion rate at 40%.

 

Less than 46% of Black students complete graduation despite being given preference in admissions due to their skin colour. Clearly, they are unsuitable and unprepared for the courses they are given preferential treatment to. Instead there should be more efforts to get them the opportunities to compete at a school level.  Despite the positive discrimination in their favour, they are not able to take advantage of this. If Black people feel they are a community - they need to work on this. They can't keep living at the expense of others who are better suited to education.

 

I don't see any Black ppl complaining about the overrepresentation of them in sports. That comes down to a lack of exposure, role models, and opportunities for other communities to take up sports as well. Noone is clamouring for that. All this PC bull is just that. People should stop trying to fit square pegs into round holes. 

 

 

You are showing your true colors. There can be thousands of engineers but only 5 take basketball court at a time.

[gattaca]

48 minutes ago, Khota said:

You are showing your true colors. There can be thousands of engineers but only 5 take basketball court at a time.

Lol this is funny. Your knowledge of American sports is laughable.

[bharathh]

15 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Lol this is funny. Your knowledge of American sports is laughable.

His knowledge about anything is laughable. 

[Khota]

29 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Lol this is funny. Your knowledge of American sports is laughable.

Tell me something about sports you wise one that I don't understand. Especially American sports.

 

14 minutes ago, bharathh said:

His knowledge about anything is laughable. 

Sorry I hit a nerve here.

[bharathh]

16 minutes ago, Khota said:

Tell me something about sports you wise one that I don't understand. Especially American sports.

 

Sorry I hit a nerve here.

Not at all! I look forward to your ignorance every day! I feel lost when you go quiet.

[Khota]

8 hours ago, bharathh said:

Not at all! I look forward to your ignorance every day! I feel lost when you go quiet.

I truly feel bad for you. A man with two masters and underachieving so much.

Please let me know if I can be of any help.