Affirmative action review

[gattaca]

A conservative group has filed a case in Supreme Court and the affirmative action is up for review. For those who don’t know it is diversity based reservation. Even if Asian kids score more in ACTs and SATs they will not be given seats in colleges instead African American and Hispanics get the seats based diversity. This sounds almost like reservations in India ?  Came to know about affirmative action recently. Supreme Court is conservative now.  @coffee_rules @BacktoCricaddict  thoughts ? 

Edited November 1, 2022 by gattaca

[coffee_rules]

I will respond in leisure, but I think Affirmative Action is not exactly like reservations . The alleged atrocities is made up since Brit times and not like  5000 years as made out to be by Brits and leftists. Also , Dalits were not equivalent to Slavery of AA. The Affirmative Action is still not able to correct incessant racism in academia and corporate America 

[gattaca]

55 minutes ago, coffee_rules said:

I will respond in leisure, but I think Affirmative Action is not exactly like reservations . The alleged atrocities is made up since Brit times and not like  5000 years as made out to be by Brits and leftists. Also , Dalits were not equivalent to Slavery of AA. The Affirmative Action is still not able to correct incessant racism in academia and corporate America 

Indian population in US is only 1% how is the quota applied when you consider whites are majority , Hispanics and AFA are in big numbers. I still don’t understand how this applies. 

[BacktoCricaddict]

On 10/31/2022 at 10:35 PM, gattaca said:

Indian population in US is only 1% how is the quota applied when you consider whites are majority , Hispanics and AFA are in big numbers. I still don’t understand how this applies. 

Affirmative action in US College admissions is highly complicated. 

 

Most important point to note is that there are no quotas.  It is simply a directive to consider whether an applicant is at a disadvantage because they come from a previously systematically discriminated background.  So, Indian-Americans will not fit into this category, but African-Americans and Latinos will.  Like @coffee_rules said, the atrocities against them, especially African Americans, have left scars in their communities that cannot be erased easily.  Only after living here for decades and learning from my students, colleagues and from my own children have I come to fully appreciate the depth of the problem.  I used to think incorrectly that racism is a thing of the past, that emancipation in the 1800s and civil rights laws in the 1960s have taken care of things, that everything is now on an even playing field.  There are some conservative African-American thinkers who also believe that, and it used confirm my bias, so I just bought into it.  But that is not the case whatsoever.  When a community is severely and unfathomably enslaved, subjugated and dehumanized for >400 years based simply on race, the effects linger for decades after the initial change in the consciousness of a society.  To put it succinctly, in the social mobility race, most African Americans have their starting blocks set way behind the others.  In 2022.  So, by considering race as one factor during the admissions process, individuals from other communities are not being harmed in any meaningful way, in my opinion.

 

This article does a good job of laying out the issues and articulating how Affirmative Action is applied during college admissions. 

https://blog.collegevine.com/what-is-affirmative-action/

 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by BacktoCricaddict

[Vijy]

On 11/3/2022 at 10:02 AM, BacktoCricaddict said:

Affirmative action in US College admissions is highly complicated. 

 

Most important point to note is that there are no quotas.  It is simply a directive to consider whether an applicant is at a disadvantage because they come from a previously systematically discriminated background.  So, Indian-Americans will not fit into this category, but African-Americans and Latinos will.  Like @coffee_rules said, the atrocities against them, especially African Americans, have left scars in their communities that cannot be erased easily.  Only after living here for decades and learning from my students, colleagues and from my own children have I come to fully appreciate the depth of the problem.  I used to think incorrectly that racism is a thing of the past, that emancipation in the 1800s and civil rights laws in the 1960s have taken care of things, that everything is now on an even playing field.  There are some conservative African-American thinkers who also believe that, and it used confirm my bias, so I just bought into it.  But that is not the case whatsoever.  When a community is severely and unfathomably enslaved, subjugated and dehumanized for >400 years based simply on race, the effects linger for decades after the initial change in the consciousness of a society.  To put it succinctly, in the social mobility race, most African Americans have their starting blocks set way behind the others.  In 2022.  So, by considering race as one factor during the admissions process, individuals from other communities are not being harmed in any meaningful way, in my opinion.

 

This article does a good job of laying out the issues and articulating how Affirmative Action is applied during college admissions. 

https://blog.collegevine.com/what-is-affirmative-action/

 

 

that is correct - it is not feasible to reduce this thing to a few cliches in either direction

[kepler37b]

All diverse societies become inefficient and bickering. Like that of mera bharat.

 

India is the future which USA can expect. But with a population of better IQ.

[bharathh]

On 11/3/2022 at 7:32 PM, BacktoCricaddict said:

Affirmative action in US College admissions is highly complicated. 

 

Most important point to note is that there are no quotas.  It is simply a directive to consider whether an applicant is at a disadvantage because they come from a previously systematically discriminated background.  So, Indian-Americans will not fit into this category, but African-Americans and Latinos will.  Like @coffee_rules said, the atrocities against them, especially African Americans, have left scars in their communities that cannot be erased easily.  Only after living here for decades and learning from my students, colleagues and from my own children have I come to fully appreciate the depth of the problem.  I used to think incorrectly that racism is a thing of the past, that emancipation in the 1800s and civil rights laws in the 1960s have taken care of things, that everything is now on an even playing field.  There are some conservative African-American thinkers who also believe that, and it used confirm my bias, so I just bought into it.  But that is not the case whatsoever.  When a community is severely and unfathomably enslaved, subjugated and dehumanized for >400 years based simply on race, the effects linger for decades after the initial change in the consciousness of a society.  To put it succinctly, in the social mobility race, most African Americans have their starting blocks set way behind the others.  In 2022.  So, by considering race as one factor during the admissions process, individuals from other communities are not being harmed in any meaningful way, in my opinion.

 

This article does a good job of laying out the issues and articulating how Affirmative Action is applied during college admissions. 

https://blog.collegevine.com/what-is-affirmative-action/

 

 

You have just become a leli :) Congratulations

 

The number of opportunities that AAs and Latinos get that they do not make use of is just astounding. Just look at the number of scholarships, grants, interest free loans etc. that they can apply to!

 

The discrimination against Indian Americans and Asian Americans due to the dumb justifications from ppl like you are just astounding. Do the affirmative action gods (admissions committees) see if an AA/Latino candidate's family actually faced enslavement in the past? I'm guessing Somali-Americans and other first/second gen African Americans do not get to avail of these right? Similarly, ppl across Latin America also do not get to avail of these quotas right? My sister completed her education in Honduras. All the rich Latin American kids were given first preference to all the best schools in the US despite them being more privileged than most ppl in the world. All this nonsense is just a result of white guilt from the "intellectuals" of the US who happen to be ultra-left and AAs and Latinos who want better opportunities while doing much less compared to more deserving candidates. 

 

They come up with dumb justifications for their failing family structures, lack of interest in education etc. at a young age. Latinos and AAs dominate entertainment and sports in the US. Do ppl strive for any diversity there? 

[BacktoCricaddict]

15 hours ago, bharathh said:

You have just become a leli :) Congratulations

 

Not sure what that is, but if it is a pejorative for someone who is aware of historical injustices and errs on the side of being benevolent, well ... I take it as a badge of honor :-).

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you may have fallen into the trap of using exceptions to invalidate the rule.  One thing I agree with, though, is that economic status must also be a data-point in the college-admissions process.  Also, I think it bears repeating that, in US college admissions, there are no quotas for any racial or ethnic minorities.  In my experience, factors such as race, economic status, ethnicity, personal hardships etc. are each single data-points while considering candidates for admission. So, if there are two well-qualified applicants and one is from a disadvantaged community, they could get a leg up. That's it.

 

 

[coffee_rules]

6 hours ago, BacktoCricaddict said:

Not sure what that is, but if it is a pejorative for someone who is aware of historical injustices and errs on the side of being benevolent, well ... I take it as a badge of honor :-).

 

As for the rest of your post, I think you may have fallen into the trap of using exceptions to invalidate the rule.  One thing I agree with, though, is that economic status must also be a data-point in the college-admissions process.  Also, I think it bears repeating that, in US college admissions, there are no quotas for any racial or ethnic minorities.  In my experience, factors such as race, economic status, ethnicity, personal hardships etc. are each single data-points while considering candidates for admission. So, if there are two well-qualified applicants and one is from a disadvantaged community, they could get a leg up. That's it.

 

 

Left-Liberal  thamma! I don’t think you are. You are a  liberal, but a  bit right of center, from what you post. 

[Khota]

I support Affirmative Action. It levels the playing field.

[gattaca]

US Supreme Court said colleges can no longer discriminate based on race. Liberals all against the ruling.

[bharathh]

Landmark ruling by the US SC. Finally, a worthy decision to stop discrimination. Let ppl earn their place rather than be given one just because of the colour of their skin or ethnicity. If things have not turned around in a few generations, it is a clear indication that affirmative action does not work.

 

All affirmative action programs, if at all, should be economics based - not based on bigoted subjective criteria.

[ravishingravi]

4 hours ago, bharathh said:

Landmark ruling by the US SC. Finally, a worthy decision to stop discrimination. Let ppl earn their place rather than be given one just because of the colour of their skin or ethnicity. If things have not turned around in a few generations, it is a clear indication that affirmative action does not work.

 

All affirmative action programs, if at all, should be economics based - not based on bigoted subjective criteria.

 

So true. 

[gattaca]

6 hours ago, bharathh said:

Landmark ruling by the US SC. Finally, a worthy decision to stop discrimination. Let ppl earn their place rather than be given one just because of the colour of their skin or ethnicity. If things have not turned around in a few generations, it is a clear indication that affirmative action does not work.

 

All affirmative action programs, if at all, should be economics based - not based on bigoted subjective criteria.

They are not much different than reservations in India. Not everyone in FC is rich but have to compete with the reservation system. Harvard , MIT and Yale did discriminate against Indian, Chinese and other Asian countries. Finally some justice.

[Khota]

7 hours ago, bharathh said:

Landmark ruling by the US SC. Finally, a worthy decision to stop discrimination. Let ppl earn their place rather than be given one just because of the colour of their skin or ethnicity. If things have not turned around in a few generations, it is a clear indication that affirmative action does not work.

 

All affirmative action programs, if at all, should be economics based - not based on bigoted subjective criteria.

It is easy for people like you who are not born into poverty to say that. If you have experienced poverty, you will think it is good for society.

[BacktoCricaddict]

2 hours ago, gattaca said:

They are not much different than reservations in India. Not everyone in FC is rich but have to compete with the reservation system. Harvard , MIT and Yale did discriminate against Indian, Chinese and other Asian countries. Finally some justice.

 Oh ... it is much different. And I speak from the perspective of being someone who helps with admissions at an undergraduate institution. 

 

The big difference?  No quotas.  Never have there been any quotas. And there is no clamoring to be added to BC or OBC classes. Race is just one among many considerations. So, if there are 2 kids who both met the minimum criteria, it is slightly more likely that an African American kid would get the opportunity ahead of the Caucasian kid.

 

As posted in this and other threads, there are enough data to show that discrimination against African Americans is pervasive regardless of income levels. 

• 

• Author

 

Quote

 

Posted June 20

https://rollingout.com/2017/08/13/average-white-high-school-dropout-earns-more-than-black-college-grad/

 

“For Black families and other families of color, studying and working hard is not associated with the same levels of wealth amassed among whites. Black families whose heads graduated from college have about 33 percent less wealth than white families whose heads dropped out of high school. The poorest white families—those in the bottom quintile of the income distribution— have slightly more wealth than black families in the middle quintiles of the income distribution. The average black household would have to save 100 percent of their income for three consecutive years to overcome the obstacles to wealth parity by dint of their own savings activity.”

 

https://t.co/Iel4v5koe0

Racial wealth differences cannot be explained by education, employment, or income. Economists estimate that, by far, the largest factors explaining these differences are gifts and inheritances from older generations: a down payment on a first home, a debt-free college education, or a bequest from a parent. Insofar as we are truly interested in living up to the American promise of economic opportunity for all, we need to acknowledge and address the role of intergenerational resource transfers, non-merit based attributes related to circumstance at birth. Given the roles of intergenerational wealth transfer, and past and present barriers that have kept black families from building wealth, private action and market forces alone cannot be expected to address wide-scale racial wealth inequality. Public sector intervention is needed.

 

 

Bottom line: Until the K-12 system is completely free of discrimination, affirmative action (again, no quotas) is a way to level the playing field for kids whose ancestors worked for free and who are still facing the ripple effects of this brutality.

 

Bottom line 2: Asian-American students picked the wrong enemy. They should really be fighting against legacy admissions, i.e., privileged kids back-dooring into Ivy league schools because of their "connections" ... and the like. 

Edited July 1, 2023 by BacktoCricaddict

[gattaca]

1 hour ago, Khota said:

It is easy for people like you who are not born into poverty to say that. If you have experienced poverty, you will think it is good for society.

Lol poverty has nothing to do with. The current system reserves seats for African American and Hispanics. US has extensive scholarship programs much better than India. But institutions like Yale and Harvard did discriminate against Indians, Chinese and Asian origin Americans. 

[Khota]

5 minutes ago, gattaca said:

Lol poverty has nothing to do with. The current system reserves seats for African American and Hispanics. US has extensive scholarship programs much better than India. But institutions like Yale and Harvard did discriminate against Indians, Chinese and Asian origin Americans. 

They were helping African Americans and Latinos come along. They were born into [poverty and had hard time coming out of that vicious cycle. Chinese, Indians came from middle class or rich background with all the advantages and piano lessons and all that.

[bharathh]

2 hours ago, Khota said:

It is easy for people like you who are not born into poverty to say that. If you have experienced poverty, you will think it is good for society.

?

 

Please read my prev post properly regarding what affirmative action should focus on. Don't post for the sake of it. 

 

And not all Latinos or Blacks are poor. In fact, most Blacks and Latinos that get into big schools are from the privileged class. They get in only because of race - not because they belong there. The privileged class from Central and South America take full advantage of this "race" ruling. Those ppl are not underprivileged in any way. Many of my sister's classmates in Honduras who scored 1200 on SAT got into Ivy Leagues with scholarships while she couldn't with a 1560 because she was of Indian origin. This race thing rarely if ever helped the local Latinos. 

 

 

[BacktoCricaddict]

@gattaca , with all due respect,  for any credible discussion on this, we must lose the argument of "reserved" seats or quotas. They never existed.