Aus-WI test team v ROW

[zen]

A hypothetical battle b/w the traditionally strong Aus-WI combined test 11 v ROW.  Read the rules to post your ROW 11-12 to take on the posted Aus-WI team in a 5-test series in sporting conditions (in Aus for e.g.)! 

 

Rules:

• Retired cricketers with a minimum of 10 tests played since 1960
• Only make the ROW team with 11-12 players (as Aus-WI is picked and ready to play)
• Appoint a captain as well as it is said that a good captain can be worth 2 players
• Avoid picking more than 3 players from a country

 

 

Aus-WI (11-12; 6 from each team):

 

Greenidge 

Hayden 

V Richards

Lara

S Waugh

Sobers (c)

Gilchrist 

Marshall 

Warne

2 from Ambrose, Lillee, & McGrath 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 4, 2023 by zen

[Majestic]

ROW XI :-

 

Sunil Gavaskar

Graeme Smith (c)

Kumar Sangakkara(wkt 1)

Sachin Tendulkar

Jacques Kallis

Andy Flower(wkt 2)

Imran Khan

Richard Hadlee

Wasim Akram

Dale Steyn

Muttiah Muralitharan

12th candidate - Ian Botham

 

5 genuine ATG bowlers, 2 ATG keepers to take care of workload, an incredible captain, greatest opening batsman, top tier ATG batting A/R. All boxes ticked as long as the umpires aren't Australians.

[Sooda]

5 hours ago, zen said:

Rules:

• Retired cricketers with a minimum of 10 tests played since 1960
• Only make the ROW team with 11-12 players (as Aus-WI is picked and ready to play)
• Appoint a captain as well as it is said that a good captain can be worth 2 players
• Avoid picking more than 3 players from a country

 

 

 

Virender Sehwag

Graeme Smith 

David Gower

Sachin Tendulkar

Kevin Pieterson

AB De Villiers (wk)

Imran Khan (c)

Richard Hadlee

Wasim Akram

Dale Steyn

Muralitharan

 

 

[Sooda]

13 minutes ago, Sooda said:

 

 

 

Virender Sehwag

Graeme Smith 

David Gower

Sachin Tendulkar

Kevin Pieterson

AB De Villiers (wk)

Imran Khan (c)

Richard Hadlee

Wasim Akram

Dale Steyn

Muralitharan

 

 

 

Tried to go for an aggressive 11 ha!

 

I wanted to fit Pant in, and even thinking about Chandrashekhar in for Murali 

[zen]

22 minutes ago, Sooda said:

 

Tried to go for an aggressive 11 ha!

 

I wanted to fit Pant in, and even thinking about Chandrashekhar in for Murali 

 

Pant, as you know, is not eligible but go w/ Chandra if you think he adds value ... pick the team you would like to field w/o getting too hung up on stats 

Edited June 4, 2023 by zen

[Sooda]

14 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Pant, as you know, is not eligible but go w/ Chandra if you think he adds value ... pick the team you would like to field w/o getting too hung up on stats 

 

...yeeaaahhh

 

I also wanted a 'hit the deck' type  paceman to get awkward bounce ... Imran and Hadlee are similar fast medium type bowlers (?)... Could only think of Morkel 

[zen]

ROW 11-12 (per the rules):

 

Captain 

 

Let's start with the captain, where I have three options:

• Mansoor Ali Khan Pataudi: One of the best test captains. Instrumental in giving confidence and belief to Indian cricket, relatively improving fielding standards, and designing the 4 pronged spin attack. The best batsman to play with one eye. 
• Imran Khan: Probably, the Pakistani equivalent of Patuadi. Functioned like how Dhoni functions for CSK now, i.e. designing teams including by picking inexperienced players, culture, etc. Innovative for the time as he could do horses for courses, promote big hitters, etc. If Sobers is the best batting AR, Imran is probably the best bowling AR. 
• Martin Crowe: The inspirational Kiwi skipper w/ a superb record against the WI pace attack. Known for game-changing tactics (but now common) esp. in ODIs such as taking advantage of power play overs, opening the bowling with a spinner, etc. 

 

Bowlers

 

Since Imran would be a part of the 11, I would need 3 more pacers (including bowling ARs) and 1 spinner. Options include:

• Steyn: low strike rate, pace, swing, etc. 
• Donald: pace, aggression, seam movement, yorkers, etc. 
• Hadlee: Probably the biggest match-winner of all time. 
• Bond: For pace, swing, seam, etc. 
• Akram: Left-arm pace, and sultan of swing and variety. 
• Flintoff: If I need an AR who can bowl fast and reverse. The guy who is out there to unsettle the batsmen. 
• Swann: An offie who is said to even turn the ball on ice. 
• Murali: The legendary off-spinner. 
• Kumble: The accurate leg spinner. 
• Chandra: the mystery spinner. 

 

WK

• Knott: the famous English WK 
• Dave Houghton: The Zim great, who could play 360 degrees too. 
• Andy Flower: A mentally strong player. 
• McCullum: For some aggressive cricket ... Bazball 
• ABDV: the name says it all 

 

Batsmen

 

With 5 bowlers including ARs & one WK, that leaves space for 5 batsmen (some of them have been mentioned in the captain & wk section)

 

• Eng: Gooch, Cook, Gower, & Pieterson
• SA: G Smith & Kallis (Kallis, if picked, would serve as the batting AR)
• SL: Sangakkara (I would not play him as a WK as his batting performance appears to get impacted relatively speaking) & Jayasuriya (if I want someone to bowl spin) 
• Pak: Anwar
• Ind: Gavaskar, Sehwag, Dravid,Tendulkar, ..., ..., ... 

 

 

Per the rules, I need to avoid picking more than 3 players from one country, so let's shortlist by country: 

 

SA: Steyn and one or two of Donald, Kallis, G Smith, & ABDV 

Eng: Pieterson, Swann, & one of Gooch, Gower, Cook, & Flintoff 

Pak: Imran, Akram, & maybe Anwar depending on other picks 

NZ: M Crowe, & Hadlee & Baz depending on other picks 

SL: May consider Sangakkara & Murali 

Ind: may exclude Ind players to bring freshness to 11s on ICF 

 

 

Here we go: 

 

McCullum (wk) 

Cook

Sangakkara

Kallis

M Crowe 

Pieterson

Imran (c)

Hadlee 

Swann

Steyn

Donald 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

Aus-WI XI

Allen Border (c)

Matthew Hayden

Sir Viv Richards

Brian Lara

Gary Sobers

Steve Waugh

Adam Gilchrist (wk)

Shane Warne

Sir Curtly Ambrose

Malcolm Marshall

Glenn McGrath

 

ROW

Sunil Gavaskar

Gary Kirsten

Kumar Sangakkara (c)

Sachin Tendulkar

Andy Flower (wk)

Kevin Pietersen

Shaun Pollock

Wasim Akram

Muttiah Muralidharan 

Shane Bond

James Anderson

 

P.S. There are so many to pick from RSA...Kallis, Donald even Boucher who is undoubtedly the best wk I have ever seen.

But I tried to stick with no more than 2 from one country.

I have

2 Indians

2 from SL

2 from RSA

2 from England

1 each from Pak, NZ and Zim.

Edited June 6, 2023 by singhvivek141

[Vijy]

On 6/4/2023 at 11:30 AM, zen said:

A hypothetical battle b/w the traditionally strong Aus-WI combined test 11 v ROW.  Read the rules to post your ROW 11-12 to take on the posted Aus-WI team in a 5-test series in sporting conditions (in Aus for e.g.)! 

 

Rules:

• Retired cricketers with a minimum of 10 tests played since 1960
• Only make the ROW team with 11-12 players (as Aus-WI is picked and ready to play)
• Appoint a captain as well as it is said that a good captain can be worth 2 players
• Avoid picking more than 3 players from a country

 

 

Aus-WI (11-12; 6 from each team):

 

Greenidge 

Hayden 

V Richards

Lara

S Waugh

Sobers (c)

Gilchrist 

Marshall 

Warne

2 from Ambrose, Lillee, & McGrath 

 

 

 

 

SA alone had some genuine greats. Btw, Greg Chappati should be on the list, ahead of someone like Waugh.

 

Gavaskar --> his resilience vs pace is well known [backup: cook]

Sehwag --> his aggression can turn matches, especially if pitch does not swing/seam

Sangakkara (wk) --> for a one-off test, I will assume he can retain peak batting form and still keep (over his career, however, he could not do both) [backup: andy flower]

Graeme Pollock --> greatest LHB of post WW2 era, more so than even Sanga and Sobers; and a quick scorer too [backup: Tendu; the ultimate technician]

Barrington --> the crisis man, who was far better than steve waugh; massive player overseas as well

kallis --> the ultimate batting AR apart from sobers

Imran (c) --> probably the most consistent AR of post WW2

hadlee --> the great metronome, and a devastating bat at no. 8 [backup: beefy botham; would be greater than everyone else if only 1st half of his career is considered]

Akram --> one of the best two left-arm pacers ever, and very good bat for no. 9

bond --> wanted to go with steyn, but I feel bond was a bit faster and got a bit more bounce

murali --> could do well almost everywhere, aside from Oz

 

All of top 6 have batting avgs of (almost) 50 and above -- and among them, 3 have averages of more than 55 (kallis, sanga, and barry) and 1 more than 60 (graeme pollock!)

Batting till no. 9, with even no. 10 capable of hitting a bit

6 genuine bowling options + 3 part-timers (G pollock, barry, sehwag)

5 pacers (1 left-arm, 1 genuine quick, 3 fast-medium) + 1 spinner + 3 part-time spinners

 

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by Vijy

[zen]

11 hours ago, Vijy said:

Btw, Greg Chappati should be on the list, ahead of someone like Waugh.

 

G Chappell can be a good pick (I haven't watched him play) but, for me, S Waugh and Lara are the two best test batsmen in the 90s. The 90s cricket b/w a declining WI and a rising Aus is probably the most competitive that I have seen. Those games, along with the pressure, were epic. S Waugh with his grittiness gave the message that Aus is the new king (IIRC started the momentum by first winning an ODI series in WI). Talking about 90s, Aus with S Waugh scoring tons of runs even went past Pak in Pak in 1998 as well. Not to forget his conquests against arch-rivals Eng in Ashes and a strong SA. 

[Tattieboy]

15 minutes ago, zen said:

 

G Chappell can be a good pick (I haven't watched him play) but, for me, S Waugh and Lara are the two best test batsmen in the 90s. The 90s cricket b/w a declining WI and a rising Aus is probably the most competitive that I have seen. Those games, along with the pressure, were epic. S Waugh with his grittiness gave the message that Aus is the new king (IIRC started the momentum by first winning an ODI series in WI). Talking about 90s, Aus with S Waugh scoring tons of runs even went past Pak in Pak in 1998 as well. Not to forget his conquests against arch-rivals Eng in Ashes and a strong SA. 

Take it from me Chappell was a much better bat, that era apart from viv chappells wicket was the most prized  and he was just as tough mentally and as captain , he didn't just go after opposition but destroyed careers in his own side 

[zen]

4 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Take it from me Chappell was a much better bat, that era apart from viv chappells wicket was the most prized  and he was just as tough mentally and as captain , he didn't just go after opposition but destroyed careers in his own side 

 

Talking about mentally tough batsmen and performances when it matters against top bowling sides (For Aus, I am taking Eng as a major rival by default for all 3), how you would rank G Chappell (top team WI), Border (top team WI), and S Waugh (top teams WI, SA, & Pak)? 

[Vijy]

54 minutes ago, zen said:

 

G Chappell can be a good pick (I haven't watched him play) but, for me, S Waugh and Lara are the two best test batsmen in the 90s. The 90s cricket b/w a declining WI and a rising Aus is probably the most competitive that I have seen. Those games, along with the pressure, were epic. S Waugh with his grittiness gave the message that Aus is the new king (IIRC started the momentum by first winning an ODI series in WI). Talking about 90s, Aus with S Waugh scoring tons of runs even went past Pak in Pak in 1998 as well. Not to forget his conquests against arch-rivals Eng in Ashes and a strong SA. 

in the 90s, the best were tendu, lara, gooch, and waugh in that order. whether tendu has match winning knocks is certainly debatable, but he was at his best in the 90s; tennis elbow and other mental/physical issues affected him later.

[Vijy]

27 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Talking about mentally tough batsmen and performances when it matters against top bowling sides (For Aus, I am taking Eng as a major rival by default for all 3), how you would rank G Chappell (top team WI), Border (top team WI), and S Waugh (top teams WI, SA, & Pak)? 

chappell > waugh = border

[Vijy]

36 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Take it from me Chappell was a much better bat, that era apart from viv chappells wicket was the most prized  and he was just as tough mentally and as captain , he didn't just go after opposition but destroyed careers in his own side 

correct, he was a great bat. arguably even more consistent than viv.

 

best batter of 70s were graeme pollock and barry richards, closely followed by greg chappati, then sir viv, and then sunny G

[zen]

17 minutes ago, Vijy said:

in the 90s, the best were tendu, lara, gooch, and waugh in that order. whether tendu has match winning knocks is certainly debatable, but he was at his best in the 90s; tennis elbow and other mental/physical issues affected him later.

 

For me, Lara & S Waugh in the 90s (doing well in the Aus-WI rivalry of the 90s weights favorably for them too) ... Tendulkar failed relatively speaking against most of the top bowling sides (he may score a 100 here and there like that 130 odd against Pak but the rest of the series would be ordinary. Aktar bowling him out in Kol Test, which was a qualification game for Asian Championship, for e.g.).  Ind also had horrible series in SA where it got bowled out for 100 & 66 on an occassion) while Gooch had issues with spin (unable to handle Kumble in India and Warne elsewhere for e.g.). 

 

Aus v WI, Aus v Eng, Aus v SA, WI v Eng, WI v SA would have relatively more aspects involved than Ind v WI, Ind v Eng, & Ind v SA. For Ind, Ind v Pak would have relatively more pressure. At that time, the challenge was more about playing India on rank turners in India. And because India could not compete much, it focused on promoting the likes of Tendulkar. 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by zen

[Tattieboy]

46 minutes ago, zen said:

 

Talking about mentally tough batsmen and performances when it matters against top bowling sides (For Aus, I am taking Eng as a major rival by default for all 3), how you would rank G Chappell (top team WI), Border (top team WI), and S Waugh (top teams WI, SA, & Pak)? 

Chappell was completely different to border and Waugh , Chappell came across to outsiders as the poster Aussie very stylish bat with all the shots equally competent front foot and back foot . The other two were back foot warriors. Border and Waugh have the reputation above Chappell as a hard captain , nonsense !! You only have to see one incident to displace that theory , neither border or Waugh would have instructed their little brother to bowl underarm and have that against their name for the rest of their lives . Greg didn't bowl it and gets off mainly Scot free nowadays he didn't give a sh*t then and doesn't now 

[zen]

13 minutes ago, Tattieboy said:

Chappell was completely different to border and Waugh , Chappell came across to outsiders as the poster Aussie very stylish bat with all the shots equally competent front foot and back foot . The other two were back foot warriors. Border and Waugh have the reputation above Chappell as a hard captain , nonsense !! You only have to see one incident to displace that theory , neither border or Waugh would have instructed their little brother to bowl underarm and have that against their name for the rest of their lives . Greg didn't bowl it and gets off mainly Scot free nowadays he didn't give a sh*t then and doesn't now 

 

I have no doubt that G Chappel was one of the most talented batsmen, who played attractive cricket (Tendulkar too). However, he averages like 41 in Eng (arch rivals) & 49 in WI (top team). Border averaged 66 in Eng and 53 in WI. S Waugh averaged 74 in Eng, 50 in SA, & 51 in WI. 

 

Even though S Waugh was probably relatively less talented, he made up for that with his fighting qualities against his arch-rivals and top sides of his time. One of the reasons why I tend to rate him high irrespective of how he looked at the crease  

[Vijy]

6 hours ago, zen said:

 

For me, Lara & S Waugh in the 90s (doing well in the Aus-WI rivalry of the 90s weights favorably for them too) ... Tendulkar failed relatively speaking against most of the top bowling sides (he may score a 100 here and there like that 130 odd against Pak but the rest of the series would be ordinary. Aktar bowling him out in Kol Test, which was a qualification game for Asian Championship, for e.g.).  Ind also had horrible series in SA where it got bowled out for 100 & 66 on an occassion) while Gooch had issues with spin (unable to handle Kumble in India and Warne elsewhere for e.g.). 

 

Aus v WI, Aus v Eng, Aus v SA, WI v Eng, WI v SA would have relatively more aspects involved than Ind v WI, Ind v Eng, & Ind v SA. For Ind, Ind v Pak would have relatively more pressure. At that time, the challenge was more about playing India on rank turners in India. And because India could not compete much, it focused on promoting the likes of Tendulkar. 

 

 

Lara was unfortunately never tested properly vs spin on Asian pitches in the 1990s. If I recall correctly, he didn't do well versus us. Likewise, one can find issues with Waugh.

 

Overall, there is a good reason why only 4 batters I think have 50+ avgs in the 1990s (Gangu came close with a smaller sample size)

[zen]

6 minutes ago, Vijy said:

Lara was unfortunately never tested properly vs spin on Asian pitches in the 1990s. If I recall correctly, he didn't do well versus us. Likewise, one can find issues with Waugh.

 

Overall, there is a good reason why only 4 batters I think have 50+ avgs in the 1990s (Gangu came close with a smaller sample size)

From the top of the mind recall, Lara helped WI draw a series in India in 94 (played a quick knock in the last test at Mohali to make a game out of what appeared to be a game heading for a draw). He did score 153* against Aus too … and Waugh helped Aus beat Pak in 98. There was a one off test in India where Mongia scored 150 odd where Waugh did well too for Aus (scored 60 or something in the 2nd inning when other struggled)

 

Pak was the only major test team in the 90s, so I am not much concerned with performances in Ind & SL unless a glaring weakness. 
 

Gooch struggled v Warne both in Aus (one of the top teams) & Eng. Playing in India, he appeared clueless against spin iirc. One of the reasons, I did not pick him in my ROW 11 as Aus-WI has Warne.