ravishingravi Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 12 hours ago, Trichromatic said: What's your solution to end caste based discrimation? What specific discrimination are you referring to ? Is it social inter personal relations that you refer to ? And is trend getting worse or better according to your esteemed view ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 6 hours ago, ravishingravi said: What specific discrimination are you referring to ? Is it social inter personal relations that you refer to ? And is trend getting worse or better according to your esteemed view ? I have already given examples of what am I referring to. It's getting better, but still far far behind from situation where we can call it insignificant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 6 hours ago, ravishingravi said: And what's the trend. I am from the city and apart from one friend in my circle every case is of an inter caste marriage including mine. And almost all my friends have married in same caste. Only one guy married outside caste. One of my friend who is Brahmin, his family is not allowing him to marry girl from other caste because they think that girl is just trying to trap a guy from higher caste. Girl's family is far well off than the guy's family, education and job wise girl is at par. Surely even being financially well placed isn't helping them to escape caste based discrimination. If the scenario was reversed, girl was Brahmin and far richer than guy's family, no way guy's family would have been able to reject such proposition. These are families where every person is well educated and good jobs. When it comes to discrimination, people have to look at cases where it's still happening than where it's not happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 6 hours ago, ravishingravi said: Folks here are conflating 10 different issues. Question to be asked. Equality of opportunity, do we want ? Yes. Equality of outcome, for me, no ? Education. If equality of opportunity is the criteria , are the reservations helping in achieving this ? I think so, yes. But now we need to make this criteria based on financial status. I have adopted three girls from slums and I can see how unfair it is for them to on the same criteria as another SCST candidate with parents earning more than 50 lakhs. Job. If the education criteria is being , then the support has to end there. The base has been somewhat evened up and now we have to let the individual make it. No reservation for sure. Discrimination in society. Has the discrimination increased or reduced ? What's the trend ? My sense is that with growing urbanization it's only reducing. Either way it is not job of the govt to forcefully make people like each other. Or agree with each. This will have even worse second effects. Is it financial issue? Educated and well off families are still likely to face caste based discrimination. Has the base really evened up? Do we really want to believe that occupied top jobs for 3-4 generations are at same level as communities who just had 1 generation of educated people? Like I had mentioned earlier, my village didn't allow lower castes to enter villages, earn livelihood till 90s. They didn't even agircultural land. My grandfather sold his land to fund education of my dad and then he funded our education, so we moved out and are doing well. Now the village first allowed kids from outskirts in the school and first time they have generations who are 10th pass in 2000s. How do I say that they have evened up and at same level as us in terms of opportunities. They will take one or two generations to do what we are doing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 7 hours ago, Lord said: Reservation is okay in education. But jobs should be merit based only. Even then there should be some way to have reservation based on financial status than caste What's merit? What genetic advantages do Brahmin's have that they have major chunk of jobs with just 5% population? What makes certain caste more meritorious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 18 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: And almost all my friends have married in same caste. Only one guy married outside caste. One of my friend who is Brahmin, his family is not allowing him to marry girl from other caste because they think that girl is just trying to trap a guy from higher caste. Girl's family is far well off than the guy's family, education and job wise girl is at par. Surely even being financially well placed isn't helping them to escape caste based discrimination. If the scenario was reversed, girl was Brahmin and far richer than guy's family, no way guy's family would have been able to reject such proposition. These are families where every person is well educated and good jobs. When it comes to discrimination, people have to look at cases where it's still happening than where it's not happening. Endogamy is not discrimination. As long as you don’t feel that there people from “lower” castes and cannot enter your house or temple, why should it be forced to enter into physical relationships? If it happens naturally as is happening, it should not be resisted. Government in UP and Bihar gives monetary benefits if you marry outside your caste. Endogamy happens more in OBCs and SCSTs than in so called UCs. Reservations should be limited to one generation. If the father got into IAS based on quota, the children should not avail the same quota and that’s how there is even distribution of quota amongst all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 3 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Endogamy is not discrimination. As long as you don’t feel that there people from “lower” castes and cannot enter your house or temple, why should it be forced to enter into physical relationships? If it happens naturally as is happening, it should not be resisted. Government in UP and Bihar gives monetary benefits if you marry outside your caste. Endogamy happens more in OBCs and SCSTs than in so called UCs. Reservations should be limited to one generation. If the father got into IAS based on quota, the children should not avail the same quota and that’s how there is even distribution of quota amongst all. Yes, edogomy is not discrimination, but when families employ logic that a girl from other caste is just trying to trap a guy from upper caste, it's 100% caste based discrimination imo. Can we even call it endogomy when family is ready to marry anyone from any part of India as long as they are from same caste but reject known families based on them being from lower caste? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: What's merit? What genetic advantages do Brahmin's have that they have major chunk of jobs with just 5% population? What makes certain caste more meritorious? You got it all wrong. Merit is not caste based. It happens that more such families get in is because of the value of education given in their families. Also, UCs get more opportunities in gaining education than poor people in LCs, same as some EWS UCs. Give educational opportunities to EWS of all castes and level the playing field for jobs as done in private sector. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharathh Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: What's merit? What genetic advantages do Brahmin's have that they have major chunk of jobs with just 5% population? What makes certain caste more meritorious? Getting more marks than others and doing better at interviews. What is your definition of merit? Maybe the answer is that these folks do better at exams and do better at interviews? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 20 minutes ago, bharathh said: Getting more marks than others and doing better at interviews. What is your definition of merit? Maybe the answer is that these folks do better at exams and do better at interviews? Which factors makes certain castes disporportionately more meritorious than other castes? Some sort of genetic advantage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: And almost all my friends have married in same caste. Only one guy married outside caste. One of my friend who is Brahmin, his family is not allowing him to marry girl from other caste because they think that girl is just trying to trap a guy from higher caste. Girl's family is far well off than the guy's family, education and job wise girl is at par. Surely even being financially well placed isn't helping them to escape caste based discrimination. If the scenario was reversed, girl was Brahmin and far richer than guy's family, no way guy's family would have been able to reject such proposition. These are families where every person is well educated and good jobs. When it comes to discrimination, people have to look at cases where it's still happening than where it's not happening. If I want to assess progress in society, then one has to assess both trend and absolutes. By that some token, Muslim genocide is happening in India based on hand picked events. But is it ? Now does discrimination exist. Not just caste, but language, religion, social status etc. Are we seeing breaking of caste barriers ? 100% yes. Compared to what it was 20 years back. Urbanization and splitting of joint families has made it easier. And there is enough data on this now. But once we try to focus on absolutes to make larger point, then that goes into the realm of narrative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ravishingravi Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Is it financial issue? Educated and well off families are still likely to face caste based discrimination. Has the base really evened up? Do we really want to believe that occupied top jobs for 3-4 generations are at same level as communities who just had 1 generation of educated people? Like I had mentioned earlier, my village didn't allow lower castes to enter villages, earn livelihood till 90s. They didn't even agircultural land. My grandfather sold his land to fund education of my dad and then he funded our education, so we moved out and are doing well. Now the village first allowed kids from outskirts in the school and first time they have generations who are 10th pass in 2000s. How do I say that they have evened up and at same level as us in terms of opportunities. They will take one or two generations to do what we are doing now. I think we live in fools paradise where we think by throwing govt into everything and by mere policy formulation all oppressions and discriminations will stop overnight. This is where I agree with @bharathh on affirmative actions. While I support them, I do endorse Babasaheb Ambedkar's views that there has to be moratorium on these affirmative actions. I am a brahmin and my father had to study under street light and worked part time. Where are affirmative actions for him ? Having said that, since I work with SCST under priveleged children, I know the challenge. They need both ladder and the push. But it's foolish to think that you can offer under priveleged ladder at each stage of their lives. We all have our battles to fight and win. Even a well functioning society cannot offer level playing for each stage. I have seen Europe closely and it has its own class system beneath the veneer of equality. At some stage one has to accept that human beings will build heirarchy. Be it caste,religion, gender or any other identity. Even the so called communist care only so much about the commune. There are many villages like yours and there are many who have been freed. Things will change. But we need to guard against this binary oppressor oppressed narrative since all that will do is transfer hate and discrimation to another community. A society that is based on first principles will only flourish maximum people in long run. But even there it won't be equal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharathh Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 30 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Which factors makes certain castes disporportionately more meritorious than other castes? Some sort of genetic advantage? Maybe the respect given to making themselves better till they are able to do it? What is your definition of merit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Trichromatic said: Which factors makes certain castes disporportionately more meritorious than other castes? Some sort of genetic advantage? Not having a level playing field for sure. Look at Govt jobs , it’s no longer dominated by Brahmins, but mostly OBCs and SCSTs due to reservations, but only their top cream keeps getting the benefits for 3 to 4 generations and the EWS in those categories hardly get to uplift themselves. Hence 63% of them stay backward even after 75 years of reservations. EWS reservations for all and stopping after 1 generation is a viable solution Edited October 7, 2023 by coffee_rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 2 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Yes, edogomy is not discrimination, but when families employ logic that a girl from other caste is just trying to trap a guy from upper caste, it's 100% caste based discrimination imo. Can we even call it endogomy when family is ready to marry anyone from any part of India as long as they are from same caste but reject known families based on them being from lower caste? It is a personal problem rather than societal. They are just not broad minded that’s all. That’s not discrimination. With urbanization and more people living in close quarters like in cities, such mindedness gradually goes away. Endogamy is not limited to UCs. It is gradually decreasing. But it is still a problem in SCs as well, because of the official census and the assumed hierarchy imposed by the state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trichromatic Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 On 10/7/2023 at 10:25 PM, coffee_rules said: Not having a level playing field for sure. Look at Govt jobs , it’s no longer dominated by Brahmins, but mostly OBCs and SCSTs due to reservations, but only their top cream keeps getting the benefits for 3 to 4 generations and the EWS in those categories hardly get to uplift themselves. Hence 63% of them stay backward even after 75 years of reservations. EWS reservations for all and stopping after 1 generation is a viable solution Are you saying that 5% Brahmin's now occupy only 5-10% of govt job? Any source for this? SC/ST reservation was set to current numbers in 1982 and OBC reservation in 1992. 40 and 30 years respectively. Brahmin have enjoyed reservation for 100s (or 1000s) of years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coffee_rules Posted October 9, 2023 Share Posted October 9, 2023 14 minutes ago, Trichromatic said: Brahmin have enjoyed reservation for 100s (or 1000s) of years. Reporting this post for posting fake news and casteist in nature. Which law guaranteed reservations to Brahmins for 1000s of years? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharathh Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 5 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Are you saying that 5% Brahmin's now occupy only 5-10% of govt job? Any source for this? SC/ST reservation was set to current numbers in 1982 and OBC reservation in 1992. 40 and 30 years respectively. Brahmin have enjoyed reservation for 100s (or 1000s) of years. Reporting your post for obvious bigotry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharathh Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 6 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Are you saying that 5% Brahmin's now occupy only 5-10% of govt job? Any source for this? SC/ST reservation was set to current numbers in 1982 and OBC reservation in 1992. 40 and 30 years respectively. Brahmin have enjoyed reservation for 100s (or 1000s) of years. Do you ask for a doctor's caste before going to him or her? I hope you do given your concerns. People like you are the reason why caste discrimination is alive and well. Bigot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bharathh Posted October 10, 2023 Share Posted October 10, 2023 6 hours ago, Trichromatic said: Are you saying that 5% Brahmin's now occupy only 5-10% of govt job? Any source for this? SC/ST reservation was set to current numbers in 1982 and OBC reservation in 1992. 40 and 30 years respectively. Brahmin have enjoyed reservation for 100s (or 1000s) of years. @Austin 3:!6 pls take note of this bigotry and anti brahmin post here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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