Umran & Sen why not picked for SA tour?

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, Chaos said:

He is fast which i love. But as of now he is a spray gun. Fast and spray gun = disaster and run leaking machine

Umran isn't a spray gun, mgmt asked him to bowl short day in and day out which is not his natural style. Umran is quite accurate for a 150k pacer.

 

If you will ask Shami to bowl knuckle deliveries or Mukesh to bowl bouncers as their stock delivery, both will struggle because that's not their natural style.

[harpicP]

54 minutes ago, raki05 said:

How can these chewts carry trundler like mukesh, arshdeep and avesh to SA. How come Avesh and Arshdeep inspite of getting regular thrashing still find the place in team and not bowlers like Tyagi, Sen, Umran and several new fast potentials.

They are idiots. They have no idea about pitches, conditions and what players will be effective in specific surfaces. 

 

There is no such thing as all rounder. No such thing as all conditions pacer etc. If there are any then it's rare. 

[singhvivek141]

10 hours ago, AKane said:

Its obvious that they are settled with Bumrah and Shami and don't want to try alternatives to them. What is the point? They are not going to play over Bumrah and Shami.

 

BTW Bumrah is pace wise also 140-145 k. Rarely  goes above that.

Shami is 33-34, Bumrah is almost 30 & Siraj is 29, Shami won't be there by next ODI WC & Bumrah with his injuries might be missing many of the games...Siraj well we don't know which version will wake up from the bed. 

 

Bowling wise, there are openings right now and there is an urgent need for fast bowlers who can fill that gap. But that won't happen if we keep on chopping & changing bowlers based on what lobbies & franchises ask for. 

[harpicP]

23 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Shami is 33-34, Bumrah is almost 30 & Siraj is 29, Shami won't be there by next ODI WC & Bumrah with his injuries might be missing many of the games...Siraj well we don't know which version will wake up from the bed. 

 

Bowling wise, there are openings right now and there is an urgent need for fast bowlers who can fill that gap. But that won't happen if we keep on chopping & changing bowlers based on what lobbies & franchises ask for. 

Winning is not a priority. Increasing brand value and creating superstars plus garnering more add revenue is more important. Players will be chosen accordingly. 

 

See Mayank kuldeep tyagi are all great talents but they don't generate interest from public. Also guys like mukesh thakur etc all have good support from state systems and political backing. 

[tapandrun]

8 minutes ago, harpicP said:

Winning is not a priority. Increasing brand value and creating superstars plus garnering more add revenue is more important. Players will be chosen accordingly. 

 

See Mayank kuldeep tyagi are all great talents but they don't generate interest from public. Also guys like mukesh thakur etc all have good support from state systems and political backing. 

 

So proper 145+ kmph bowlers have lower marketing potential ?  It should be something else

[singhvivek141]

13 minutes ago, harpicP said:

Winning is not a priority. Increasing brand value and creating superstars plus garnering more add revenue is more important. Players will be chosen accordingly. 

 

See Mayank kuldeep tyagi are all great talents but they don't generate interest from public. Also guys like mukesh thakur etc all have good support from state systems and political backing. 

I am trying hard to control my anger, seeing the way our selections are going down. 

 

I can feel the pressure that these young quicks put on their body to generate pace, only to be ridiculed by fans as spray gun and are treated as second class citizens for the mediocre bowlers who just place the ball without putting much effort on their body.

[express bowling]

10 hours ago, AKane said:

Its obvious that they are settled with Bumrah and Shami and don't want to try alternatives to them. What is the point? They are not going to play over Bumrah and Shami.

 

We have been playing 4 pacers, in tests outside Asia, for quite some time now. So there are 2 more spots up for grabs. Plus, both Bumrah and Shami are rested / missing from bilateral ODIs quite frequently.

 

They have picked 4 medium pacers for ODIs, showing that spots are there.

 

10 hours ago, AKane said:

BTW Bumrah is pace wise also 140-145 k. Rarely  goes above that.

 

Bumrah bowled 140 k to 150 k spells during his quickest years ( 2017 to 2019 ). Even after that, he bowls 135 k to 147 k / 148 k spells often enough. Did the same during the last few games of the WC with a Fastest of 148 k in the Final match. 

 

Moreover, he releases the ball well past the bowling crease, thereby shortening the distance compared to most other pacers. There was a study which showed that he gives the feel to the batter of a pacer who releases the ball about 6 kph quicker.

[harpicP]

37 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

So proper 145+ kmph bowlers have lower marketing potential ?  It should be something else

Unfortunately that's the case with indian casuals. Many in India dislike pace and bounce cause they love swingers and economical bowlers. I am very serious. 

 

Need a total mentality shift. Fundamental change. 

[tapandrun]

23 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

We have been playing 4 pacers, in tests outside Asia, for quite some time now. So there are 2 more spots up for grabs. Plus, both Bumrah and Shami are rested / missing from bilateral ODIs quite frequently.

 

They have picked 4 medium pacers for ODIs, showing that spots are there.

 

 

Bumrah bowled 140 k to 150 k spells during his quickest years ( 2017 to 2019 ). Even after that, he bowls 135 k to 147 k / 148 k spells often enough. Did the same during the last few games of the WC with a Fastest of 148 k in the Final match. 

 

Moreover, he releases the ball well past the bowling crease, thereby shortening the distance compared to most other pacers. There was a study which showed that he gives the feel to the batter of a pacer who releases the ball about 6 kph quicker.

 

Yes in Test and In ODIs Ind need bowlers do not think Bhumrah will play all the matches now-on, would prefer Rana, Yadav and Sen in some combination in test. Umran can be in ODIs. Do nt throw them into T20s.

 

As ind does not have mystery bowlers, would prefer bowlers who could bat in T20is- Yudhvir Singh is one, If Hangerkaker able to get to 140+kmph and May be Arshdeep/Mukesh not both can have only 1 at max 2 (on a v.bad day) guys who not bat.   

Edited December 5, 2023 by tapandrun

[harpicP]

38 minutes ago, tapandrun said:

 

So proper 145+ kmph bowlers have lower marketing potential ?  It should be something else

It's not enough. You need political backing, state support etc.

[AKane]

13 minutes ago, express bowling said:

We have been playing 4 pacers, in tests outside Asia, for quite some time now.

We have played 4 yes - but it has rarely worked out well for the 4th pace bowler if he is going to see the ball after over 25 to set batsmen.

 

Rahane managed the 4 pace bowlers in Aus - even then Saini was injured in the last test and basically Siraj, Thakur and Natarajan did the bowling.

 

3 pace bowlers are enough - Lillee, Thommo, Walker     or Imran, Wasim, Waqar   or Imran/Sarfraz/Sikander or Lee, McGrath, Gillespie.

 

Windies used the 4 fast bowlers but we don't have a Lloyd to use them plus we have a spinner. Croft and Garner did not come on to bowl after the ball was 20+ overs old. That would not have worked for chemistry between 4 genuine fast bowlers.

[express bowling]

10 hours ago, AKane said:

Are we the sort of team who if we have Roberts, Holding, Croft, Garner, Daniels in the lineup would experiment and come up with a Malcolm Marshall who is better than all the before bowlers?

 

No.

 

We will stick with the known product and not even search for Marshall or even give him a chance. 

 

 

True.  But we would not have got Roberts, Holding, Croft and Daniel playing together in the first place.

 

They did not provide the "control" that the great Indian TMs want. Only Garner would have passed the test ( his only "weakness " being he was too tall ) 

 

Roberts, Garner and 2 short medium pacers with good FC numbers would have formed the pace quartet if Indian ex-cricketers were in charge. Holding would be in and out and told to concentrate on line and length if he wanted a career. 

 

Marshall would perhaps have been picked for a different reason. Because he was less than 6 feet tall. Our prima-donna star batters do not want their fingers and ribs under attack in the nets from tall quicks unless they are slow like Unadkat. 

 

 

10 hours ago, AKane said:

 

Our known product is Bumrah, Shami,  "kindof sortof Siraj" and we will stick with that. Most of the folks here should be happy with that. Admittedly they are quite competent. Why create controversy by including a Sen, Rana or somebody who outshines the established stars? Let well enough be.

 

There is as much a bowling clique in the Indian team as a batting clique. Always was and always will be. Even during days of the great spin trio.

 

True. 

[express bowling]

13 minutes ago, AKane said:

We have played 4 yes - but it has rarely worked out well for the 4th pace bowler if he is going to see the ball after over 25 to set batsmen.

 

Rahane managed the 4 pace bowlers in Aus - even then Saini was injured in the last test and basically Siraj, Thakur and Natarajan did the bowling.

 

3 pace bowlers are enough - Lillee, Thommo, Walker     or Imran, Wasim, Waqar   or Imran/Sarfraz/Sikander or Lee, McGrath, Gillespie.

 

Windies used the 4 fast bowlers but we don't have a Lloyd to use them plus we have a spinner. Croft and Garner did not come on to bowl after the ball was 20+ overs old. That would not have worked for chemistry between 4 genuine fast bowlers.

 

It's a different issue whether 4 pacers are needed. They are playing 4 pacers, which means 2 more spots,are open.

 

Personally, I am a strong supporter of 4 quicks outside Asia. It helps keep the 3 frontline quicks fresh and bowl with full intensity. We can do it because we have spinners like Jadeja, Ashwin and Axar who can bat at 7. 

 

The 4th quick has been underutilized because he has been Shardul in most cases. There was a time, till 2019, when he had the fitness of a frontline pacer. He has become overweight after that and bowling 15+ overs a day with intensity is not his forte anymore. 

[harpicP]

25 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

 

True.  But we would not have got Roberts, Holding, Croft and Daniel playing together in the first place.

 

They did not provide the "control" that the great Indian TMs want. Only Garner would have passed the test ( his only "weakness " being he was too tall ) 

 

Roberts, Garner and 2 short medium pacers with good FC numbers would have formed the pace quartet if Indian ex-cricketers were in charge. Holding would be in and out and told to concentrate on line and length if he wanted a career. 

 

Marshall would perhaps have been picked for a different reason. Because he was less than 6 feet tall. Our prima-donna star batters do not want their fingers and ribs under attack in the nets from tall quicks unless they are slow like Unadkat. 

 

 

 

True. 

In the real world and not the imaginary one our bcci management seems to be infatuated by, our ideal bowling lineup for sena should comprise of;

 

Axar or sunda at 7

Followed by harshit or tyagi at 8

9 to 11 should be a combo of either bumrah siraj shami/prasidh or bumrah siraj and kuldeep or tyagi 

 

Hangerakar at 7 or bawa too are other alternatives. 

[harpicP]

20 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

It's a different issue whether 4 pacers are needed. They are playing 4 pacers, which means 2 more spots,are open.

 

Personally, I am a strong supporter of 4 quicks outside Asia. It helps keep the 3 frontline quicks fresh and bowl with full intensity. We can do it because we have spinners like Jadeja, Ashwin and Axar who can bat at 7. 

 

The 4th quick has been underutilized because he has been Shardul in most cases. There was a time, till 2019, when he had the fitness of a frontline pacer. He has become overweight after that and bowling 15+ overs a day with intensity is not his forte anymore. 

I would even recommend having axar at 6, ishan 5

Sundar 7 or shabaz

 

Fijay shankar gets over looked but he offers dibble doubly pace and keeps it tight to give main bowlers rest. He also bats adequately. 

 

India can try so many things but India will always stick to experience because they are rigid.

[express bowling]

1 hour ago, harpicP said:

In the real world and not the imaginary one our bcci management seems to be infatuated by, our ideal bowling lineup for sena should comprise of;

 

Axar or sunda at 7

Followed by harshit or tyagi at 8

9 to 11 should be a combo of either bumrah siraj shami/prasidh or bumrah siraj and kuldeep or tyagi 

 

Hangerakar at 7 or bawa too are other alternatives. 

 

I would want atleast 2 tall, hit the deck quicks in the playing 11 in tests and ODIs in SENA. 

 

We have quite a few options now .... Prasidh, Harshit, Mayank Yadav, Tyagi, Sen.

 

We can choose them and rotate them based on form, fitness and format. 

Edited December 5, 2023 by express bowling

[singhvivek141]

55 minutes ago, harpicP said:

In the real world and not the imaginary one our bcci management seems to be infatuated by, our ideal bowling lineup for sena should comprise of;

 

Axar or sunda at 7

Followed by harshit or tyagi at 8

9 to 11 should be a combo of either bumrah siraj shami/prasidh or bumrah siraj and kuldeep or tyagi 

 

Hangerakar at 7 or bawa too are other alternatives. 

If we talking about Tests...I would back Sundar at no 7 if we dont go with Bawa. He doesn't need to bowl much and he is a capable batter at no 7.

 

If we go with Bawa then he becomes the no 7 batter and Kuldeep comes in as an spinner at no 9.

[Suhaan]

Mayank,Harshit should have been there

SA was the place of all to give them debut

[harpicP]

40 minutes ago, Suhaan said:

Mayank,Harshit should have been there

SA was the place of all to give them debut

We will debut them at home in placid wickets. Discard them if they fail. That way we can use that as an excuse to bring in Mukesh chahar thakur and co back

Edited December 5, 2023 by harpicP

[rkt.india]

21 hours ago, AKane said:

In this series in all honesty the ODIs and T20s are window dressing.

 

The heart of the tour are the two tests and the attack there is set with Bumrah and Shami taking the best overs and the new ball. Siraj comes on first change and then Sen or Umran would get the ball around over 25. It would be disheartening.

 

It is good they are not playing in this mode. We win or lose with Bumrah and Shami. If we win they will get the kudos, if we lose then some else like Kohli/Rohit will take the blame.

 

Fast bowler 3 and 4 can be vital - like Colin Croft in WI tour of Aus which they won in 1979 2-0 vs Chappell and Lillee and co. Croft played a more vital role there than bowlers 1 and 2 who were Roberts and Holding.

 

But we are not that Windies, Sen and Umran are not Croft and Rohit is not Lloyd.

Must be third or fourth SA tour for Shami. In SA, taller bowlers are required.