Will we ever achieve the same winning mentality as Australia?

[harpicP]

57 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Indians in general don't have the ruthless streak. For instance in cricket, we win an Asia Cup once in 2 or 3 attempts and then arrogantly say that we shouldn't play AC, it is beneath us etc. We beat some XYZ side once and then arrogantly proclaim that winning is boring, we shouldn't play them. In hockey as well I see this attitude, we are beating sides like Spain, Argentina and South Korea easily these days and then proclaim that we should start a Hockey League and not play these sides, not forgetting that some of these same sides used to hammer us black and blue year after year for 20-30 years (so much arrogance over a bronze, Arg won gold in Rio Olympics)....and the difference in gap isn't big, in fact I'll say that India's youth sides are way behind the Spanish counterparts for last 5-6 years and that will show in coming decade. 

 

Aussies are relentless, they just want to keep winning, winning, winning, keep lifting trophies, humiliating opponents etc. They don't get bored or cocky after a few good years, like Evert once said as a teenager, her goal was to win everything once, then everything twice, thrice, four times, and never lose. 

 

I don't see this ruthless streak in Indians, in any sport for that matter...maybe Neeraj will change the trend. Even Pakistanis had a spell in the 70s, 80s where they won everything on offer in squash. In hockey they had a winning streak in the late 70s till mid 80s which forced top football sides to study their methods (Mario Kempes' Arg copied their tactics/formations, took tips, attended Pak training sessions in the 1978 hockey WC like apprentices). That Pak side was the hockey equivalent of cricket's WI, many still consider them the GOAT team. Look at their H2Hs even today against Neth, Aus, Ger etc......despite sucking for so long even today they are statistically as good or better than Aussies/Dutch I'd say. 

 

India will never produce a GOAT in any discipline. Even someone like Viswanathan Anand was content with his world titles and invitations to top events, never pushed himself to become a mean machine like Kasparov or Carlsen despite having the same ability, this was observed by 14th world champion Kramnik as well....Kramnik is one of the greatest, also the last product of the fearsome Soviet School of Chess before USSR broke up....he trained under Botvinnik and Kasparov, was second of Kasparov in the 1995 Kasparov-Anand world championship match in New York. 

 

Dunno if by nature we are like this.....lazy, complacent, rarely pushing ourselves beyond comfort zone. Or an inherent weakness in Dharmics as opposed to the more ambitious Abrahamics. Even look at our great rulers/kings in ancient/medieval times who rarely tried to expand, contrast to some Mongol/Muslim small time rulers/thugs/bandits from Central Asia and Persia who pushed to conquer our lands. Funny thing is once the Muslim rulers settled in India they also became content, less ambitious to expand. 

Same thing with tests. Ahh we beat Aussies twice in their backyard. Chalta hain. Who cares. Let's lose the wtc final

One off game. I understand wtc final concept is a bit silly but it's still a icc tournament. Final is a final. 

 

We need to get rid of all fraud losers like kl rahul, Sky, jadeja, kohli from tests and t20 etc. 

Play youngsters. 

[harpicP]

25 minutes ago, Gollum said:

True, no matter how much we improve, how much we invest we won't overtake a country like Aus in sports......as you said, sporting culture. 

 

Watch them win 50 medals in Paris next year while we struggle to touch double digits. If we meet in hockey, they'll thrash us mercilessly (7-0, 8-0 margin) like they always do, can't single out just cricket. 

Need more pant type players who don't choke. Need fresh ideas. 

 

Yea hockey we will most likely lose and choke in ko games. Think we even lost to nz last time of all teams

 

We are a good team. Ranked 3rd I think but the choking genes still exists even in other sports. Not many even follow hockey in India, so the pressure excuse is bullocks.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2023 by harpicP

[harpicP]

18 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Beating Aussies in KOs is the toughest challenge in cricket. You can count such examples with one hand....Lloyd's WI in 1975, Aravinda masterclass, Poms in 2019 WC SF etc.

 

Yuvi owned them more than once....2007 SF and 2011 QF. Then the KO in 2000 mini WC in Nairobi. What a champ that guy !!!!!

Yuvi

Gambo he is a fighter. He is annoying but he is clutch. 

Pant

Sreesanth in your face bowler

Zak khan

Yusuf pathan

Sehwag

 

These are some of our clutch players. Need to help our new gen develop the fighting mentality these aforementioned guys possessed.

[harpicP]

How belgium went from ranked 12 or 14 to world champion in the last 5 years?????

 

Hockey question

 

What is India's issue? We are ranked 3 now. Cant just be happy with semi final appearances. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by harpicP

[Gollum]

31 minutes ago, harpicP said:

How belgium went from ranked 12 or 14 to world champion in the last 5 years?????

 

Hockey question

 

What is India's issue? We are ranked 3 now. Cant just be happy with semi final appearances. 

We have a mental block against Aussies, Belgium too but a lesser extent. Somehow found a way to lose to NZ in a home WC KO, after leading 2-0 and then 3-1. 

 

European teams will keep climbing like that once they put in their minds. France will rise next, Spain will see a resurgence. 

[BlueBlood]

The point about sports culture is so true.

 

Vishy Anand really was a lazy smug who should have been GOAT in chess in the level of Kasparov.

 

Kasparov's legacy is not that he was the best but he was willing to play anywhere with anyone and not afraid to lose. He even had the famous matches against Deep Blue computer.

 

Anand was content in playing only the games and style he was good at.

 

Even if you see Magnus Carslen vs. Pragyan. Pragyan was not coached properly. In chess you can deliberately play for a draw if you want to.

 

carlsen drew all the games which were his weaknesses and won all the blitz games which were his strengths.

 

This is exactly what Aus did against India in WC finals. No matter what the idiots here will claim about the pitch. Once they had the strategy perfected against SKY, Iyer, Gill etc. There was no way India would score above par even in a batting paradise. SKY for example was clueless against slower offside bouncers. He would have failed miserably even in a batting paradise.

 

The reality is if you want to be a GOAT team you need to fire across all cylinders and take nothing for granted. Play to your strengths and give zero opportunities for opponents to win.

 

Bad fielding, mental midget batsmen. Batsmen with clear weaknesses like SKY, Gill, Iyer, Rahul etc. And Batsmen with predictable strategy like Rohit.

 

All these add up in a final. Aussies didn't make a single error in bowling and fielding.

 

It's definitely sports culture. Yuvraj and Pant are the only two clutch performers who come to mind who really destroyed Aussies in do or die knockouts. Yuvraj in particular created fear in the Aussie bowlers that made them forget all their strategies.

[harpicP]

2 hours ago, Gollum said:

We have a mental block against Aussies, Belgium too but a lesser extent. Somehow found a way to lose to NZ in a home WC KO, after leading 2-0 and then 3-1. 

 

European teams will keep climbing like that once they put in their minds. France will rise next, Spain will see a resurgence. 

India vs aus h2h

24 wins to 91 losses loolll

 

India vs england 

25 wins vs 86 losses

Thrashing even vs englsnd in h2h

 

Germany again

23 to 50 win to loss ratio

Somewhat decent vs Holland

32 wins to 50 losses

 

Good vs Argentina belgium (only cause they were minnows before) and ok vs Spain

Climbed high vs pak

 

Long long long way to go. 

England aus we will never catch up to them with h2h.

[vvvslaxman]

It helps when you meet two choker teams in the semi final and final. You just have to be barely good. You don't have to be extrordinary. Entire Austrlian bowling bar Zampa were thrashed by many teams in the world cup. Come WC final one choker team completely shut the shop for 30 overs. Another choker team was fumblingon the field left/right/center.

[Chaos]

We need to get this: aussies been playing serious cricket since 1800’s. They basically england who got seperated. We started winning anything serious since 1983… we came a long way in half a decade. Just give it time, as india gets richer and more development comes in, we will see better and stronger athletes!

[Gollum]

17 minutes ago, harpicP said:

India vs aus h2h

24 wins to 91 losses loolll

 

India vs england 

25 wins vs 86 losses

Thrashing even vs englsnd in h2h

 

Germany again

23 to 50 win to loss ratio

Somewhat decent vs Holland

32 wins to 50 losses

 

Good vs Argentina belgium (only cause they were minnows before) and ok vs Spain

Climbed high vs pak

 

Long long long way to go. 

England aus we will never catch up to them with h2h.

Vs Eng/GBR stats is wrong. We are leading.

 

Hockey doesn't have a site like stats guru for monitoring H2H, don't trust random sites. I know a blog with correct stats, shall share when I find it. Vs Aus/Neth/Ger seems somewhat ok but a bit dated. Iirc we have 34 wins vs Dutch, 28 vs Germans. Stopped tracking vs Aus when it was 24-85 something. Ind Pak right now is 67-82 I think. 

[BlueBlood]

11 minutes ago, Chaos said:

We need to get this: aussies been playing serious cricket since 1800’s. They basically england who got seperated. We started winning anything serious since 1983… we came a long way in half a decade. Just give it time, as india gets richer and more development comes in, we will see better and stronger athletes!

 

This is exactly the complacency attitude.

 

China always comes 2nd in Olympic medals. They had an even worse situation than India until 2000 where they actually had enough money to spend on infrastructure for sports. 

 

Last 20 years look at the growth China has had vs. india in olympics and various sports.

 

It's not about strength. It's about beating the opposition and being relentless.

 

It's a mindset thing as at the highest level everyone is great, you need to be 1% better than them.

 

We produce so many great chess players but not one has been dominant like Magnus Carlsen last 15 years. It's not like Chess is a physical sport.

 

It's because the kill or be killed, do or die attitude is not present even in 18 year old kids. 

 

 

 

[harpicP]

28 minutes ago, Gollum said:

Vs Eng/GBR stats is wrong. We are leading.

 

Hockey doesn't have a site like stats guru for monitoring H2H, don't trust random sites. I know a blog with correct stats, shall share when I find it. Vs Aus/Neth/Ger seems somewhat ok but a bit dated. Iirc we have 34 wins vs Dutch, 28 vs Germans. Stopped tracking vs Aus when it was 24-85 something. Ind Pak right now is 67-82 I think. 

That's cool. 

I went based of statsindia hockey .in or something like that. 

 

Yea hope we can improve on it soon.

 

Our youth lost recently though 4 - 1 to spain

[harpicP]

16 minutes ago, BlueBlood said:

 

This is exactly the complacency attitude.

 

China always comes 2nd in Olympic medals. They had an even worse situation than India until 2000 where they actually had enough money to spend on infrastructure for sports. 

 

Last 20 years look at the growth China has had vs. india in olympics and various sports.

 

It's not about strength. It's about beating the opposition and being relentless.

 

It's a mindset thing as at the highest level everyone is great, you need to be 1% better than them.

 

We produce so many great chess players but not one has been dominant like Magnus Carlsen last 15 years. It's not like Chess is a physical sport.

 

It's because the kill or be killed, do or die attitude is not present even in 18 year old kids. 

 

 

 

We have lotnof talent even in wrestling and weight lifting. Many are just content to reach top 5 ish and secure a government job. 

[srgadjon]

I dont think anyone can fault Rohit, Kohli, KL Rahul or the bowlers effort till the final. They won 10 games in a row and most of the wins were one sided to the point where it was getting boring to watch India win without the opposition putting up a fight. Yes, the final was one bad game but some people are making it out as if the whole campaign was a complete failure. which it wasnt.

 

One drawback of Indian team will always be the extreme expectations and the burden of handing it. One billion+ fans desperately want you to win and all those expectations eventually will come hard on the team. I dont think any team in world sports plays under such pressure. For teams like NZ or Australia, even if they lose, they will get a pat on the back, and they will say "well played, better luck next time", whereas in India you will get crucified if you lose one game. So teams like Australia can always go out and play fearlessly and not have the burden to live up to the unrealistic expectations. Sometimes, I feel football, hockey should also become as popular as cricket, so all the public and media attention is not fixated only on cricket all the time. 

 

Coming to the team, the selectors have a bad habit in India to pick players only based on stats, averages. Instead  they need to also look at their temperament and match winning ability and how they perform under pressure even in bilaterals. Even though, there is no way to replicate the pressure of playing a knock out game in an ICC tournament, you will still be able to see the patterns of certain players doing well under pressure  and certain players not doing so well. You can be rest assured these same players are more likely to do well in knockout games. If the selectors have an keen eye, they can easily spot the players who are typically mentally stronger than others. The more of these type of players in the team, the better chance of doing well in the knock out games. 

Edited December 9, 2023 by srgadjon

[TellTheTruth]

It always comes back to why India cant find player that can replicate Yuvrajs role in the 2011 and 2007 WC wins. a player that can smash 12 ball 50s or 30 ball 70s in crucial Knockout matches under pressure, or a clutch batsman that can bowl 10 tight overs and allow the team to carry an extra batsman in the 11 has been whats missing in getting India cross the finish line.

 

This chocker vs non chocker thing just needlessly complicates things. for example If you take yuvraj out of the 2011 2007 teams gambhir would probably be known for being a chocker. He batted slow in the 2007 semis and needed to be bailed out by One of the great t20 inning of all time, in the 2011 world cup quarter finals he kept chocking by almost getting himself and his teammates run out until he finally got run out letting australia back in the game and needed yuvi and raina to hold their nerves, and then he flopped vs Pakistan in the semis.  he played two great clutch innings in the finals which is great but those where not the main reason for india winning those world cups., heck even iyer gill and rahul played clutch innings in the semis of the last world cup. Team balance has been the flaw of indian cricket team not the lack of clutch players.

Edited December 9, 2023 by TellTheTruth

[vvvslaxman]

Shunyakumar yadav selection is one of the worst world cup selection in INdian history. It even beats Vijay shankar's last minute entry. Atleast he was useful against pakistan with bat.

[BlueBlood]

1 hour ago, srgadjon said:

I dont think anyone can fault Rohit, Kohli, KL Rahul or the bowlers effort till the final. They won 10 games in a row and most of the wins were one sided to the point where it was getting boring to watch India win without the opposition putting up a fight. Yes, the final was one bad game but some people are making it out as if the whole campaign was a complete failure. which it wasnt.

 

One drawback of Indian team will always be the extreme expectations and the burden of handing it. One billion+ fans desperately want you to win and all those expectations eventually will come hard on the team. I dont think any team in world sports plays under such pressure. For teams like NZ or Australia, even if they lose, they will get a pat on the back, and they will say "well played, better luck next time", whereas in India you will get crucified if you lose one game. So teams like Australia can always go out and play fearlessly and not have the burden to live up to the unrealistic expectations. Sometimes, I feel football, hockey should also become as popular as cricket, so all the public and media attention is not fixated only on cricket all the time. 

 

Coming to the team, the selectors have a bad habit in India to pick players only based on stats, averages. Instead  they need to also look at their temperament and match winning ability and how they perform under pressure even in bilaterals. Even though, there is no way to replicate the pressure of playing a knock out game in an ICC tournament, you will still be able to see the patterns of certain players doing well under pressure  and certain players not doing so well. You can be rest assured these same players are more likely to do well in knockout games. If the selectors have an keen eye, they can easily spot the players who are typically mentally stronger than others. The more of these type of players in the team, the better chance of doing well in the knock out games. 

 

Dude, this is the most ridiculous argument ever.

 

Extreme expectations? Jamaica always had high expectations of Usain Bolt where he needs to win every tournament in running and win comprehensively (Record breaking performances). USA had same expectations of Michael Phelps in Swimming.

 

Or Argentina had the same for Messi.

 

And Norway with Magnus Carlsen. You think being #1 for 15 years doesn't hold expectations?

This joke of expectations of 1 billion people is getting old.

 

Sachin was not failing later in his life about billion people expectations. It was the 100th 100 which he shamelessly did against Bangladesh in a match we lost.

 

I am just so angry with fans like you who support mediocrity at the highest level.

 

India won 10 of those games because there's a real dearth in skill among the top 3-4 teams vs others.

 

That's a fact no one will deny.

 

Once they faced New Zealand and Australia this skill gap narrowed. When Mitchell and Williamson were batting until 32nd over India was losing even semi final. Shami took 7 wickets that game as other bowlers looked clueless.

 

The reality is margins are thin at the highest level. You need all your players to contribute whereever they can in the field, batting, bowling, strategy whatever.

 

With Rohit Sharma's pot belly and poor fielding of Siraj, Bumrah, Shami etc. does he really stand a chance against supremely fit athletes in terms of handling pressure and elevating the team?

[Bigg Brother]

NEVER.

 

People complaining about pitch don't have idea that even with 300+, Aussie would have made it tough for us. We aren't match for Aussie when it comes to KOs. They spanked the home team like anything which was unbeaten throughout the tournament. Can India do that to Australia in Australia when they are on song, we couldnt even beat them in freakin warm up game in 2015 wc, lets just not talk about SF-Final . And now please don't bring tests series here, Aussie smacked us in WTC final at neutral venue and we got spanked by NZ in WTC final in the same year we won the test series in Australia. We can win few series here and there and name it as historic series win and celebrate it for hundred years but when it comes to trophy cabinet, India is as mediocre as it gets. We laugh at Pakistani brothers but they should laugh at us considering the population,craze and money is invested in cricket in India. 

[Vilander]

11 hours ago, Gollum said:

Yuvi owned them more than once....2007 SF and 2011 QF. Then the KO in 2000 mini WC in Nairobi. What a champ that guy !!!!!

recollect his interview after the 2011 semi win where he had a goat performance again, he said the pressure was different level. That guy was a beast. Batted bowled and fielded brilliantly that wc. 

[BlueBlood]

33 minutes ago, Vilander said:

recollect his interview after the 2011 semi win where he had a goat performance again, he said the pressure was different level. That guy was a beast. Batted bowled and fielded brilliantly that wc. 

Yet fans even on this board rate Rohit, Kohli, Dhoni etc. higher than Yuvraj in clutch performances hahaha this is the irony...