When will this Shardul Thakur experiment end?

[R!TTER]

2 minutes ago, AKane said:

play Kuldeep

The only right answer

[sensible-indian]

WI made 4 pacer attack work in an era where there were no over rate limits.

 

If they played today, they would have had to use a spinner to get the over rate under control.

 

Kuldeep as a spinner has a FARR higher ceiling.

 

But in a 4 bowler attack, if he doesn't offer control, teams can lose test matches in a matter of sessions (unless the pacers bowl out of their skins).

 

Bowling is like a spartan defense. Everyone has to complement each other.

 

Kuldeep works BEST in a 5 bowler setup where he is not tasked with control and has someone like Jaddu to do that. And that's exactly what happened in Sydney 2018-19 series....and slowly he can be eased into a role of the lone spinner.

 

Historically speaking, wrist spinners are rare in test cricket. But if they are good enough to play as lone spinners, they can be amazing match winners.

 

Shane Warne

Mustaq Ahmed (in his prime 5 years, he was as good as Warne and Murali and won many overseas tests for Pak).

[putrevus]

If good bowlers were picked 245 was very good first innings score. But when we have leader of pack Bumrah followed by Indian McGrath and Gillespie combined in Prasidh. Not to forget Miyah bhai whose shelf life as Indian bowler might be over no score can be winning score.

To top everything we have a captain who has no clue on how to rotate fast bowlers.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by putrevus

[Malcolm Merlyn]

26 minutes ago, rollingstoned said:

They only turned to him when their Pandya investment came a cropper. He took whatever chances he had and helped us win important tests and series abroad. 

 

He played a few flukes. And that's that. He isn't a good enough international match player to keep a proper bowler out.

 

Pandya has been given the choice to pick and choose his formats. Why? No one knows. 

 

Right now Pandya is a one format player and thats T20.

 

The next ODI ICC event is either in Pakistan or UAE in Feb-March 2025. Shami Bumrah Siraj and Kuldeep are sure to play. They will play Jadeja as the spinAR.

 

This basically doesn't leave a place for Pandya in the ODI set up.

 

Unless the team management in all its brilliance decides to sacrifice the no.6 batter to play Pandya.

 

Another gem that will come to bite us in future is Axar.

 

Team management is sacrificing a bowler to let this hack play because he can bat. He did bat well in the BGT but was very poor with the ball. 

 

Its only time before he is found out and becomes another Thakur

[rollingstoned]

32 minutes ago, sensible-indian said:

We don't since we don't have the options.

 

1. We won 2 series in Aus with a 4 bowler attack (for most part). The toughest place in the world to win a series other than India.

 

2. Reason? The 4 bowler attack literally forced us to be disciplined with our bowling choices (like using spinner to hold one end up and blast pacers from the other end). And if pacers are doing great, they can bowl in tandem anyways.

 

3. When we used 5 bowlers there, we used 2 spinners, both of whom actually saved our asses in different tests in the 2020 series. Playing them may NOT be possible in a place like SA but we missed that trick in Eng and lost a winnable championship.

 

4. Picking 5 bowlers is ONE thing but knowing how to use them is another. 5th bowler is someone who will ONLY bowl a few overs to give breather and be impactful with the bat. When you pick 4 seamers and 1 spinner, you make the spinner the 4th bowler and the 5th bowler to be a pacer (who can bat).

 

Example:

 

a) Nathan Lyon being used by Aus (as a 4th bowler) in pitches that have very little for spin.

 

b) While Ashwin actually bowled pretty well in this test, he is a bad 5th bowler and a much better 4th bowler. These mini spells are the most useless way to use him.

 

c) Jaddu is a FAR better 5th bowler (and he can be a 4th bowler too if he is in form). And can bat better in general.

 

Irony is that if we HAD actually gone with 4 bowlers in this test (say not picking Prasidh or Shardul), the game would have been much closer. We would have still lost but our limitations would have forced us to play better.

 

28 minutes ago, AKane said:

Its not that easy to play with 4 fast bowlers. Everyone looks at Roberts, Holding, Croft and Garner and thinks throw in any 4 bowlers and it will work. It will not.

 

Most teams go with 3 pace bowlers.  Even SA here - Coetzee was a passenger. Aus plays with Starc, Cummins, Hazelwood or they played Lee, McGrath, Gillespie.

 

We don't have the bowlers to make the pace quartet work.

 

Take 3 pace bowlers and play Kuldeep who turns the ball a lot more than Ashwin.

Good posts but the 4 pacer template which became an obsession for Kohli especially was premised on the fact that your best bowlers can keep on attacking by bowling at full tilt because they get enough of a breather. Now ideally those 4 are all proper wicket taking options but if they re not the theory is still the same. That I assume is the reason why TM thinks that if 4 bowlers allow you to attack then why not 5 which should be even better. They tried picking an 'all conditions attack' for the 2021 WTC final and decided that going with 2 spinners in SENA is a waste just based off of that without seeing that everything went against us in that match from conditions to toss to the rain and no swing bowlers in our team to take advantage of overcast conditions.

[rollingstoned]

Del

Edited December 28, 2023 by rollingstoned

[rollingstoned]

Del

Edited December 28, 2023 by rollingstoned

[express bowling]

36 minutes ago, AKane said:

Bumrah's performance here on paper looks good - 4 wickets and all.

 

Look a little more carefully and 2 wickets are 10 and 11  with total at or near 400.

 

Top scorers who score > 50 Elgar, Jansen, Bedingham and Bumrah nowhere to be found.

 

From his second wicket at score 113 to 3rd of Rabada at 392 - Bumrah did nothing. Mind you this is the guy who gets new ball and all.

 

While discussing whether the bits and pieces player should play, it not relevant whether the lead pacer is as good as he is perceived to be. The only relevant question is whether he merits a place in the side. And he does.

 

And if he is actually not as good as general perception then all the more reason we cannot afford a bits and pieces player.

 

Moreover, picking tailenders' wickets quickly is very crucial as they can be pesky and add 30 to 50 extra runs. 

 

 

[AKane]

29 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Batting till 7 should suffice if good batsmen are picked.

 

Just pick your best 4 bowlers and make them practice batting.

 

No point picking Shardul or other bits snd pieces cricketers like him. 

yeah man but that qualification "if good batsmen are picked".....like who? For example in white ball cricket everyone is gaga about that fellow Rinku. We will see how he does in T20 WC when the big boys come to play.

 

Absolutely bits and pieces players from Ravi Shastri to Shardul Thakur are not for test cricket or any cricket.

 

However.... however.... it does mean that the favored sons like Bumrah who get the new ball and get to bowl first turn in the morning need to get wickets when it matters. That is what a Glenn McGrath and Malcolm Marshall did. Bumrah fans consider him  better than McGrath/Marshall and that is fine but he has to perform when it matters.

[AKane]

3 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Moreover, picking tailenders' wickets quickly is very crucial as they can be pesky and add 30 to 50 extra runs. 

Picking wickets of Elgar, Bedingham and Jansen is more crucial - but Bumrah did not do that. Those partnerships killed us. Remember this guy gets the morning bowl and new ball for a reason.

[express bowling]

12 minutes ago, AKane said:

Picking wickets of Elgar, Bedingham and Jansen is more crucial - but Bumrah did not do that. Those partnerships killed us. Remember this guy gets the morning bowl and new ball for a reason.

 

But is it relevant while discussing whether Shardul should be in the playing 11  ?

 

Do you want Bumrah to be dropped ahead of Shardul  ?  Is Shardul.a better bowler than Bumrah ?

[AKane]

26 minutes ago, express bowling said:

The only relevant question is whether he merits a place in the side. And he does.

A more relevant question is should he get the new ball and the morning spell if he is not delivering. And he is not.

Edited December 28, 2023 by AKane

[AKane]

7 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

But is it relevant while discussing whether Shardul should be in the playing 11  ?

 

Do you want Bumrah to be dropped ahead of Shardul  ?  Is Shardul.a better bowler than Bumrah ?

It is relevant because the person getting the new ball and the prime morning spell is not doing his bit putting pressure on the bowlers later on.  Equiv to opener getting out early and putting pressure to perform on middle order.

 

Shardul should be dropped because he is not performing at all - and Bumrah should be relegated to first change because he is not performing with the new ball.

Edited December 28, 2023 by AKane

[express bowling]

17 minutes ago, AKane said:

yeah man but that qualification "if good batsmen are picked".....like who? For example in white ball cricket everyone is gaga about that fellow Rinku. We will see how he does in T20 WC when the big boys come to play.

 

Why would Rinku or anyone else play out of their skin in international matches when they are getting fame, adulation and recognition playing the IPL.

 

They are unlikely to have that hunger.

 

 

17 minutes ago, AKane said:

.

However.... however.... it does mean that the favored sons like Bumrah who get the new ball and get to bowl first turn in the morning need to get wickets when it matters. That is what a Glenn McGrath and Malcolm Marshall did. Bumrah fans consider him  better than McGrath/Marshall and that is fine but he has to perform when it matters.

 

We have to see our bowling history to get the answer. Bumrah is not as good as his image.

 

But he is the only Indian pacer with 100+ wickets averaging less than 22 in tests. The next bests are Shami averaging 27 and Kapil averaging 29.

 

If Bumrah is not marketed then who will the young Indian fast bowlers use as an Indian pace idol ?  They will just believe that Indian are not cut out for pace bowling and take up batting. 

[express bowling]

8 minutes ago, AKane said:

A more relevant question is should he get the new ball and the morning spell if he is not delivering. And he is not.

 

Who will you give the new ball to ?

[express bowling]

5 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

Shardul should be dropped because he is not performing at all - and Bumrah should be relegated to first change because he is not performing with the new ball.

 

 

Fine by me.

 

Bumrah should be put under some pressure to perform out of his skin in critical matches and bowl with more effort instead of just be content with swinging the new ball and " look good " without adequate results.

 

Let him hit the deck hard and get his wickets with a slightly older ball, like he used to in his best years. 

[AKane]

2 minutes ago, express bowling said:

 

Who will you give the new ball to ?

Give it to Prasidh.....

 

Who is going to replace Shardul in second test? Mukesh? Don't like him but he is the only one in the team so try him. Can't have a result worse than this one with innings defeat inside 3 days anyways.

 

Next tour for NZ for example try the guys who have never played like Umran, Tyagi etc. But it is just Bumrah/Shami.... Bumrah/Shami..... Bumrah/Shami and it is not working. And the same combo will keep happening.

 

[AKane]

20 minutes ago, express bowling said:

45 minutes ago, AKane said:

yeah man but that qualification "if good batsmen are picked".....like who? For example in white ball cricket everyone is gaga about that fellow Rinku. We will see how he does in T20 WC when the big boys come to play.

 

Why would Rinku or anyone else play out of their skin in international matches when they are getting fame, adulation and recognition playing the IPL.

 

They are unlikely to have that hunger.

 Agree with you - absolutely.

[express bowling]

11 minutes ago, AKane said:

Give it to Prasidh.....

 

He himself weakened his case today by not displaying any intensity while bowling.

 

Yesterday I excused his opening spell as nerves but today he should have showed more intent. 

 

 

11 minutes ago, AKane said:

 

Who is going to replace Shardul in second test? Mukesh? Don't like him but he is the only one in the team so try him. Can't have a result worse than this one with innings defeat inside 3 days anyways.

 

Maybe we should bring in an in-form Arshdeep in place Shardul. Won't do any worse. Has a better bouncer and a high release point.

 

 

11 minutes ago, AKane said:

. But it is just Bumrah/Shami.... Bumrah/Shami..... Bumrah/Shami and it is not working. And the same combo will keep happening.

 

 

Agree. They are becoming the Kohli and Rohit of bowling from 2022 onwards.  It was different in thd 2018 to 2021 period when they were establishing themselves as top quicks. 

 

Our problem is that we do not try to build bench strength against weak teams. Earlier this year, against the WI, we played Unadkat, Mukesh and Shardul. 

 

The TM and selectors are trying to protect the big IPL names in bowling too, just like batting, by not creating any competition for the stars 

 

We will never win anything this way. 

[AKane]

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Maybe we should bring in an in-form Arshdeep in place Shardul. Won't do any worse. Has a better bouncer and a high release point.

Is he still in SA? BTW the India A / SA A match is underway and Avesh Khan got 5 wickets. But I don't see Arshdeep around that team.

 

Yes - esp as a left arm bowler he will bring in some variety at least.

 

Speaking of bouncers Thakur used to swing the ball well - now he is trying to bowl bouncers like he is some Andy Roberts! Unfortunately he got Elgar with a fluke using a short ball. I don't know who has told him to bowl short. He has no pace nowadays, he has no height nor is he a hit the deck bowler like Wagner. So....

14 minutes ago, express bowling said:

Agree. They are becoming the Kohli and Rohit of bowling from 2022 onwards.  It was different in thd 2018 to 2021 period when they were establishing themselves as top quicks. 

 

Our problem is that we do not try to build bench strength against weak teams. Earlier this year, against the WI, we played Unadkat, Mukesh and Shardul. 

yeah - in fast bowling terms 2021 to 2024 is a lifetime. The Marshall of 1984 and 1987 were different bowlers.

 

Unadkat, Mukesh and Shardul was embarrassing and pointless. These are some strange shenanigans.

 

 

Edited December 28, 2023 by AKane