Today Clive Lloyd 80th birthday -How great?

[Harsh Thakor]

Toady legendary Clive Lloyd turns 80.

 

Few batsmen were more a model or epitome of consistency as batsmen when leading a team as Clive Lloyd. In his day very few batsmen in the middle as effectively did what the doctor ordered. When his side had it's back to the wall Clive was cometh the hour, comet the man. Even when his team was in dire straits he would not curb his glorious attacking strokes. Arguably playing for a weaker side, Lloyd would have performed even better. , having to much more often bear a crisis.

Lloyd was one of the best ever match-winners as a batsmen with 10 of his 19 centuries in winning games at an average of above 58 .He was also one of the finest in a crisis scoring 7 hundreds at average of 45,i n games drawn. In crucial junctures like in India in 1974-75 Australia in 1979-80 and 1981-82 and in India in 1982-83, it was his batting that delivered the knockout punch to the opponents. Even if he played for great side, it was often Clive’s batting that laid the fulcrum to his side, or gave it the enquired impetus.

He led his team to 36 win in 74 tests  and 2 World cup victories, in 1975 and 1979.Without his leadership I doubt West Indies would have won a world cup.

I will never forget how he resurrected West Indies cricket after the 5-1 humiliation down under in 1975-76, to reach the heights of glory when  thrashing England by a 3-0 margin in 1976 in England, winning their first series down under in 1979-80 or earlier the Gary Sobers World series supertest trophy in Australia. Clive could tap the potential at an optimum capacity out of every team member, particularly Viv Richards and the 4 pronged pace attack.

Clive Lloyd in, 1979-81 and then 1983-85 knit West Indies into arguably the best ever test teams in the history of the game, which resembled an invincible army. I doubt without Clive Lloyd West Indies could have even reached near this stature as none else was capable of garnering resources or nurturing or propelling the players in the manner of Clive. He played an instrumental role in discovering and shaping likes of Andy Roberts, Viv Richards, Michael Holding and Joel Garner, or later Malcolm Marshall.

 

Most commendable the manner Lloyd marshalled his resources on the tour of India in 1983-84 to lead his side to a 3-0 win and avenge the 1983 world cup defeat at the hands of India. Lloyd’s very presence in the middle made the difference.

. In 1984-85 he led West Indies to a then record of 11 test wins in a row.

 

It is ironic that Lloyd ended on the losing side in his final world cup final in 1983, Final test match in 1985 and final ODI in 1985.Still he philosophically spoke “In cricket you lose some, win some.”

Lloyd left behind perhaps the most powerful cricketing empire ever for Viv Richards to inherit in 1985, winch he successfully defended till his retirement.

 

His ranking may be debatable in the game’s history but without hesitation as a batsman and cricketer I would rate Clive Loyd as ‘truly great.’

 

Lloyd has generally been ranked around 65th to 70th in selection amongst 100 best cricketers of all time by experts like late John Woodcock, late Christopher Martin Jenkins and Geoff Armstrong.

 

Personally I feel considering his impact overall Lloyd ranks amongst the 50 best cricketers

I rate Clive in the category of great batsmen like Alan  Border, Javed Miandad, Rahul Dravid ,Ted Dexter and Frank Worrell as a batsmen  and a whisker below likes of  Viv Richards or Sachin Tendulkar.

Amongst left handed batsmen I would place Clive only behind Lara, Sobers, Sangakkara Alan Border and Neil Harvey.

Facing pure pace Lloyd was in the Gary Sobers class. Arguably his performances against top pace were amongst the 4  best ever by any left handed batsmen, behind only Gary Sobers, Alan Border and David Gower .Notable that no batsmen averaged as much as Clive against Lillee-Thomson pair at their fastest.

 

Amongst great West Indies batsmen I rank Clive at 8^th place only behind Viv Richards. Lara, Sobers,Headley Weekes ,Worrell and Kanhai 

In my view Lloyd has a place amongst the 8 best captains ever, joining Don Bradman, Ian Chappell, Frank Worrell, Imran Khan, Arjuna Ranatunga,Alan Border    and Mark Taylor.

 

I admire his sportsmanship in congratulating the Indian team after they upset the applecart o the giant West Indies team in the 1983 world cup final.

 

 

What may go against Lloyd was his inability to inculcate discipline in his team, with incidents like the Kingston bumper barrage creating equivalent of a carnage or Manchester test of 1976, fresh in memory .Lloyd in my view over deployed use of the bouncer or intimidatory bowling from his paceman,in a ruthless manner. It killed the spirit of the game. Till this day he offered no apology for the intimidatory bowling at Kingston. He lacked the grace or gentlemanly spirit of Frank Worrell or Gary Sobers, failing to continue their tradition in this respect. To later captain Viv Richards he passed on his legacy of ruthlessness in terms of intimidatory pace bowling, who used it with no discretion. To me it amounted to killing cricket, as Alan Border stated in 1988-89 series at home against West Indies.

 

On the 1980 tour of New Zealand he took no action against indiscipline of his players protesting umpiring decisions. Lloyd also never was critical of bad behaviour of West Indian crowds.

Sadly today West Indies cricket is in a state of disarray with giants like Lloyd unable to resurrect it as coaches or managers.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ultimate_Game]

One of the biggest Uncle Tom I've ever seen along with Holding and Bucknor. I mostly remember him and Holding for being extremely bitter about India - probably that 83 WC defeat still rankles. Either way not a big fan as there were much better WI batsmen in Richards, 3 Ws, Kanhai, Greenidge, Haynes etc.

 

He was lucky to captain when WI had the best pace attack ever with likes of Marshall, Roberts, Holding, Garner etc. and batsmen like Richards, Greenidge, Haynes and a pretty good wk in Dujon. Anyone would've won with that team just like anyone could've captained Aussies in early 2000s with those generational players.

 

In nutshell, Lloyd is the definition of being at the right place at the right time.

[Haarkarjeetgaye]

Age of 80 is very great

[Lord]

4 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

One of the biggest Uncle Tom I've ever seen along with Holding and Bucknor. I mostly remember him and Holding for being extremely bitter about India - probably that 83 WC defeat still rankles. Either way not a big fan as there were much better WI batsmen in Richards, 3 Ws, Kanhai, Greenidge, Haynes etc.

 

He was lucky to captain when WI had the best pace attack ever with likes of Marshall, Roberts, Holding, Garner etc. and batsmen like Richards, Greenidge, Haynes and a pretty good wk in Dujon. Anyone would've won with that team just like anyone could've captained Aussies in early 2000s with those generational players.

 

In nutshell, Lloyd is the definition of being at the right place at the right time.

 

He built that attack after WI lost to Aus

[Ultimate_Game]

8 hours ago, Lord said:

 

He built that attack after WI lost to Aus

 

Easier to build an attack when you luck into generational talent. There was so much talent at the time that Wayne Daniel couldn't even get into the side, and I missed out on mentioning Colin Croft as well. It's like someone saying that Wadekar (or Pataudi or any other Indian captain) built the spin quartet in 70s.

 

Sometime you simply have a lot of talented players just like Aussies had with McGrath, Gilchrist, Warne, Ponting, Hayden, Langer, Waugh Brothers, Martyn etc. playing at the same time. West Indies were the same in late 70s and early to mid 80s.

[Lord]

21 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Easier to build an attack when you luck into generational talent. There was so much talent at the time that Wayne Daniel couldn't even get into the side, and I missed out on mentioning Colin Croft as well. It's like someone saying that Wadekar (or Pataudi or any other Indian captain) built the spin quartet in 70s.

 

Sometime you simply have a lot of talented players just like Aussies had with McGrath, Gilchrist, Warne, Ponting, Hayden, Langer, Waugh Brothers, Martyn etc. playing at the same time. West Indies were the same in late 70s and early to mid 80s.

 

So where was this talent when they lost to Aus?

[Ultimate_Game]

34 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

So where was this talent when they lost to Aus?

 

It's like saying where was Indian pace talent in early 2000s. Or where were likes of Gilchrist and Warne in 80s. Unfortunately time travel was beyond WI so they unfortunately couldn't help their teams in the past 

[Lord]

5 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

It's like saying where was Indian pace talent in early 2000s. Or where were likes of Gilchrist and Warne in 80s. Unfortunately time travel was beyond WI so they unfortunately couldn't help their teams in the past 

 

no it isnt. Kohli is credited with building our pace culture even though talent was there beforehand. Culture has to be set which Lloyd also did. He backed the fast bowlers and was probably first one to play 4 fast bowlers together. 

 

 

[R!TTER]

46 minutes ago, Lord said:

Kohli is credited with building our pace culture even though talent was there beforehand.

Let's not over play that hand, *er played 2 spinners on a green top in Eng 2018 Lords test.

[Ultimate_Game]

56 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

no it isnt. Kohli is credited with building our pace culture even though talent was there beforehand. Culture has to be set which Lloyd also did. He backed the fast bowlers and was probably first one to play 4 fast bowlers together. 

 

 

 

Bud, Kohli was the captain when he benched Shami & Umesh in CT final against Pak knowing fully well their track record against pacers. He was the one who benched Shami once again in 2019 WC SF when Shami was at the top of his game. Kohli was the captain who played 2 spinners at Lord's when it was overcast & rainy. Kohli was the captain who played 2 spinners in the WTC final against NZ when NZ didn't even pick a single spinner and the whole world could see the pitch would support seam.

 

Let's not get carried over with the narrative. The fact is we had Bumrah - a once in a lifetime pacer and a very good Shami emerged during Kohli's captaincy. Both Bumrah and Shami made their debuts before Kohli became the captain and reached their peak under him. And despite that Kohli had 0 trophies - be it WTC, ODIs or T20s. Kohli as a captain is not the flex you think it is. It takes special talent to underperform and not win anything despite having peak Bumrah and Shami.

[Ultimate_Game]

15 minutes ago, R!TTER said:

Let's not over play that hand, *er played 2 spinners on a green top in Eng 2018 Lords test.

 

And also the WTC final when kiwis went without even a single spinner. And for dropping Umesh & Shami in CT final, and for dropping Shami in 2019 WC SF. But yeah, Kohli "supports" pacers. If you can't even back someone like Shami, that says it all.

[Lord]

26 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Bud, Kohli was the captain when he benched Shami & Umesh in CT final against Pak knowing fully well their track record against pacers. He was the one who benched Shami once again in 2019 WC SF when Shami was at the top of his game. Kohli was the captain who played 2 spinners at Lord's when it was overcast & rainy. Kohli was the captain who played 2 spinners in the WTC final against NZ when NZ didn't even pick a single spinner and the whole world could see the pitch would support seam.

 

Let's not get carried over with the narrative. The fact is we had Bumrah - a once in a lifetime pacer and a very good Shami emerged during Kohli's captaincy. Both Bumrah and Shami made their debuts before Kohli became the captain and reached their peak under him. And despite that Kohli had 0 trophies - be it WTC, ODIs or T20s. Kohli as a captain is not the flex you think it is. It takes special talent to underperform and not win anything despite having peak Bumrah and Shami.

 

Which Indian captain supported pacers more or changed our pace culture? Shami, Umesh, Ishant played under Dhoni too. We know how that went

[R!TTER]

SCG - he definitely did support pacers, just as much as Kohli if not more!

[Ultimate_Game]

19 minutes ago, Lord said:

 

Which Indian captain supported pacers more or changed our pace culture? Shami, Umesh, Ishant played under Dhoni too. We know how that went

 

And we won more tourneys under Dhoni. Dhoni made best use of the limited resources he had at his disposal. He managed to win with likes of RP Singh, Sreesanth, Nehra, Munaf etc. Shami and Bumrah debuted under him as well.

 

What use is so called "supporting pacers" when you can't win anything? And drop someone like Shami in crucial matches or picking spinners when pacers were the way to go. All well and good talking the talk but when it came to walking the walk, the captain went missing.

[Lord]

8 minutes ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

And we won more tourneys under Dhoni. Dhoni made best use of the limited resources he had at his disposal. He managed to win with likes of RP Singh, Sreesanth, Nehra, Munaf etc. Shami and Bumrah debuted under him as well.

 

What use is so called "supporting pacers" when you can't win anything? And drop someone like Shami in crucial matches or picking spinners when pacers were the way to go. All well and good talking the talk but when it came to walking the walk, the captain went missing.

 

I'm talking about Tests, not tourneys or LOIs. Shami was never dropped in Tests. Dhoni was terrible in Tests giving 8-0 despite such 'talented' pacers.

[singhvivek141]

13 hours ago, Ultimate_Game said:

 

Easier to build an attack when you luck into generational talent. There was so much talent at the time that Wayne Daniel couldn't even get into the side, and I missed out on mentioning Colin Croft as well. It's like someone saying that Wadekar (or Pataudi or any other Indian captain) built the spin quartet in 70s.

 

Sometime you simply have a lot of talented players just like Aussies had with McGrath, Gilchrist, Warne, Ponting, Hayden, Langer, Waugh Brothers, Martyn etc. playing at the same time. West Indies were the same in late 70s and early to mid 80s.

Agree that WI had generational talent, but Lloyd was able to align those players as one unit. That's one of his biggest legacy.
WI had good players even now, but they don't have any unity as they all are from different island-nations. Lloyd was able to overcome that.
Ranatunga did the same for SL.

[cpct]

14 hours ago, Lord said:

 

I'm talking about Tests, not tourneys or LOIs. Shami was never dropped in Tests. Dhoni was terrible in Tests giving 8-0 despite such 'talented' pacers.

Maturity is when you realise Kohli is worst player to play test and still many *ing Indians love him more than their wives.

[Ultimate_Game]

7 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Agree that WI had generational talent, but Lloyd was able to align those players as one unit. That's one of his biggest legacy.
WI had good players even now, but they don't have any unity as they all are from different island-nations. Lloyd was able to overcome that.
Ranatunga did the same for SL.

 

They don't have players like the 70s & 80s anymore. They have mercenaries suited to the T20 game and that's it. None of the players they have now will get into the WI all-time team. Likes of Narine, Russell, Pollard, Bravo etc. aren't even suited to the ODIs. And WI did make the most of this T20 talent by winning the WT20 twice in 2012 and 2016 under Sammy.

[putrevus]

19 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Let's not over play that hand, *er played 2 spinners on a green top in Eng 2018 Lords test.

So what, Clive Llyod chose to play useless spinners when he had ATG fast bowlers in that team in 1976 when India chased 406.

 

Selection mistakes have been made by every captain.