Prime example of lying through statistics

[Real McCoy]

When people are told this is proven through statistics, that seems to shut anyone down. Here's a great example of lying through statistics. If you look carefully at the words they used, it maybe true (p values). The suggestion is something else which contributes to how statistics can be used to push forward an agenda. Needless to say this study was probably sponsored by coffee manufacturers thereby the wordplay used in the article and not say the full truth about what caffeine does.

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9202101/

 

Quote

After consumption of the caffeine-containing beverage, a transient and significant increase (P < 0.001) in spectral integrated values (areas under the curve) of high frequency power (high component, HC) was observed, and at 30 min the value was significantly greater than in controls (P < 0.02), suggesting an increase in vagal autonomic nerve activity.

 

Here they are saying caffeine enhances the parasympathetic nerve activity highlighting the vagus nerve. They hide behind p values which is statistics-speak for how probable this scenario may be. To casual readers, they will think the parasympathetic mechanism is activated but only the nerve is activated.  Caffeine is a nerve stimulant. It activates all nerves.

 

But it also is a psychoactive stimulant. Its a known agitator of the human mind. Caffeine makes the adrenal glands secrete adrenalin and cortisol and contributes stress to the human body, thereby the body is in sympathetic mode. As far as my understanding of the human body, at a given moment, one can be in only two states of nervous activity - Symapthetic (fight/flight mechanism) and Parasympathetic (rest and digest mechanism).

 

So what effect has the "p-value supported" vagal nerve activity contribute to the Parasympathetic mechanism? The answer is not comprehensive but is dodging the question. The three factors they mentioned down below were "not significantly affected" It doesn't say that they were not affected at all. And it does not rule out the possibility of them changing in the long run. They can always point to other factors such as food, lack of exercise, etc but not caffeine. 

 

Quote

Physiological variables accompanying the change in autonomic nerve activity (i.e., blood pressure, surface body temperature and heart rate) were not significantly affected by caffeine intake.

 

 

Where is the ICF stats expert? Tell me this stats based peer reviewed article is true and it is science. More like sCiEnCe to me, the one paraded during coweed

 

 

 

 

[zen]

“But it also is a psychoactive stimulant. Its a known agitator of the human mind. Caffeine makes the adrenal glands secrete adrenalin and cortisol and contributes stress to the human body, thereby the body is in sympathetic mode.”

 

 

@Chaos Caffeine is believed to be an agitator of the human mind  

Edited October 16, 2024 by zen

[Chaos]

1 hour ago, zen said:

“But it also is a psychoactive stimulant. Its a known agitator of the human mind. Caffeine makes the adrenal glands secrete adrenalin and cortisol and contributes stress to the human body, thereby the body is in sympathetic mode.”

 

 

@Chaos Caffeine is believed to be an agitator of the human mind  

Ok im here. Yea some people cant function with out coffee / caffeine

[randomGuy]

@OP  it would have been interesting if they tested the vegus activity on 2 groups -

1. Those who don't drink caffeine i.e. Are not addicted.

2. Those like me who drink tea 3 times a day. i.e. those who addicted.

 

I think I do get relaxed somewhat after drinking tea. But this could be because I am addicted. I believe most, possibly all, of the subjects of the experiment are caffeine addicts (I classify daily very small dosages also as addiction). This group will show vegus nerve activity. For sure.

 

I am really interested in group 1. People who aren't addicts - don't tea/coffee daily. I think they may show no specific vegus activity on drinking caffeine. Because I didn't drink tea till early 20's. I remember I didn't need tea for relaxation. Infact I felt better without it.

 

 @Real McCoy

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2024 by randomGuy

[Real McCoy]

24 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

@OP  it would have been interesting if they tested the vegus activity on 2 groups -

1. Those who don't drink caffeine i.e. Are not addicted.

2. Those like me who drink tea 3 times a day. i.e. those who addicted.

 

I think I do get relaxed somewhat after drinking tea. But this could be because I am addicted. I believe most, possibly all, of the subjects of the experiment are caffeine addicts (I classify daily very small dosages also as addiction). This group will show vegus nerve activity. For sure.

 

I am really interested in group 1. People who aren't addicts - don't tea/coffee daily. I think they may show no specific vegus activity on drinking caffeine. Because I didn't drink tea till early 20's. I remember I didn't need tea for relaxation. Infact I felt better without it.

 

 @Real McCoy

 

 

 

 

 

Tea is mild. Coffee has more caffeine. I drink a cup of coffee in the morning and tea in the evening. Now I stopped buying tea so only coffee in the morning. I actually took a break from coffee for a week last year. Expected some digestion problems but they didn't appear. I drank the same coffee after a week and I could feel the stress i.e. cortisol activation which is part of the sympathetic system. I never had the same "buzz" from continued drinking.

 

That is totally opposite of what the vagus nerve represents. Vagus nerve is part of the parasympathetic system which is activated during meditation/deep breathing. Caffeine adds stress to the already stressed out times of today. I have been trying to shake off the coffee as a habit. So far I'm unsuccessful. Atleast by year end, I'm planning to make it happen.

[G_B_]

1997..

 

You need to see if this is a good journal or not. Who has quoted it and number of people who have quoted it. Those that quoted it do they agree or disagree with something.

 

Let's say article is published and is quoted by 10 further studies in good journals that disagree with the outcome. You know the article cannot be relied on.

 

 

 

[randomGuy]

44 minutes ago, Real McCoy said:

 

Tea is mild. Coffee has more caffeine. I drink a cup of coffee in the morning and tea in the evening. Now I stopped buying tea so only coffee in the morning. I actually took a break from coffee for a week last year. Expected some digestion problems but they didn't appear. I drank the same coffee after a week and I could feel the stress i.e. cortisol activation which is part of the sympathetic system. I never had the same "buzz" from continued drinking.

 

That is totally opposite of what the vagus nerve represents. Vagus nerve is part of the parasympathetic system which is activated during meditation/deep breathing. Caffeine adds stress to the already stressed out times of today. I have been trying to shake off the coffee as a habit. So far I'm unsuccessful. Atleast by year end, I'm planning to make it happen.

You would have seen many people get bowel movements in morning from drinking tea. 

 

The parasympathetic nervous system (PNS) plays a key role in bowel movements by relaxing the internal anal sphincter and causing strong contractions in the rectum and sigmoid.

 

Now remember the times when we were not addicted and ask yourself, Did we need caffeine for bowel movements in the morning? - absolutely not.

 

That is what I am suggesting. 90% adult population of this world is addicted to tea/coffee. The subjects of the tests in the OP are all addicts. That is why their PNS is stimulated. For non-addicts, it may not get stimulated from taking caffeine.

 

To know whether you are an addict or not - just try to stop taking caffeine....you will get withdrawal symptoms or relapse into drinking caffeine after few days....90% of janta is an addict.

 

I know coffee has twice the amount that tea has. I decided if I have to drink one, it will be tea because coffee might be worse.

 

Edited October 16, 2024 by randomGuy

[Real McCoy]

33 minutes ago, randomGuy said:

To know whether you are an addict or not - just try to stop taking caffeine....you will get withdrawal symptoms or relapse into drinking caffeine after few days....90% of janta is an addict.

 

I know coffee has twice the amount that tea has. I decided if I have to drink one, it will be tea because coffee might be worse.

 

I did. For a week. Strangely I did not experience any withdrawal symptoms such as headaches or indigestion. I did relapse after a week. My craving is the taste. I believe the caffeine hijacks certain functions such as the digestive system that you described in your post. For the past few months, I'm having my cup late in the morning not immediately after waking up. I was expecting constipation but luckily no problems with bowel movements so far.

[Real McCoy]

57 minutes ago, G_B_ said:

1997..

 

You need to see if this is a good journal or not. Who has quoted it and number of people who have quoted it. Those that quoted it do they agree or disagree with something.

 

Let's say article is published and is quoted by 10 further studies in good journals that disagree with the outcome. You know the article cannot be relied on.

 

 

 

 

Lets take the case of a common man. He is not going to look at articles in journals. He gets the info via the news on TV/internet with some doctor or an expert talking on a newscast/show. He isn't savvy on which articles can or cannot be relied on. Any person can present on TV highlighting how caffeine is GOOD based on articles like this one. And no one can stop special interest groups from promoting their product via a newsreel which is more powerful than plain advertisement especially something that is "harmless" as caffeine.

 

Here's how harmless cigarettes used to be

 

 

 

[coffee_rules]

@Real McCoy I don't read up or take seriously any article that says - "studies have shown that ... " . It is most likely sponsored by Big industry (pharma, food etc). Some says chocolate is good, beer is good, coffee is good. The competitor comes up with alternate studies with a different sample size. Just consume anything and everything in moderation . 

 

As far as ICF expert is concerned, he is happy to sip coffee and have chow-chow baath dipped in chutney in a Brahmin's Coffee Bar in Bengalure rather than lock horns with you on coweed argument  Yennanthira  @BacktoCricaddict Anna?

Edited October 16, 2024 by coffee_rules