We underplay our ODI greats

[putrevus]

1 hour ago, StraightDrive26 said:

I brought the SR of others because that was the norm in those days. Only a handful of batters even struck above 80 in that era. That's why it is relevant. In this era there are multiple batters who average 50+ with a SR of 90+ which is a norm. Virat is not great because of his average, he is great because of the type of innings he plays. There are batters who average over 50 and strike better than Virat like ABD. Nope if Kohli had played in the 90's he wouldn't be scoring 80 hundreds and that assumption is ridiculous. This shows that you are someone who watches 10 minutes highlights of games from the 90's and just look at the stats. I watched cricket through the 90's and have watched all the teams, there is no way Virat was scoring so may hundreds with the kind of fields and bowling attacks of the 90's. The reverse swing, longer boundaries, more fielders outside the 30 yard circle etc. Sachin is the one who could translate his game to any era as he was the closest to technical perfection. Sachin never had such prolonged slump in cricket in his 24 year career. That shows how technically perfect he was. Virat on the other hand has been going through slump for 6 years running and too during his prime years. There is no comparison between Sachin and Virat, the latter might be a better ODI batter in terms of records but the better batsman was always Sachin. Virat is not even close to Sachin in terms of batting. At the age of 51 without much practice Sachin can still play flawless innings with the bat, Virat at the age of 30 struggles to score runs in Tests, that's the gulf between the two. 

I saw Sachin whole my life, so noway Sachin is better than Virat. This is why Virat game's translates in any era.Virat's game is built on maintaining SR around 90 plus and score consistently far better than anyone else in history.

 

He can handle any era's bowling better than Sachin in odis without getting out as his game is built differently.

 

I repeat Sachin was not even in same ball park as Virat in odis.

 

FYI Virat even with all his struggles still averages more in test cricket in India than Sachin.He scored those runs where Jadeja and Ashwin average in 21 and 20.Virat is not some chump in test cricket.

 

We will revisit Sachin's test career some other time

 

 

Edited March 6, 2025 by putrevus

[kruiser]

Whatever the stats may say, the assurance Sachin conveyed, and the confidence with which he faced all attacks in all conditions was second to none.

I only rate Viv as a better player in ODIs.

After Sachin retired, Kohli's Hobart inning was the one that brought back the joy!

 

[Chakdephatte]

6 hours ago, kruiser said:

Whatever the stats may say, the assurance Sachin conveyed, and the confidence with which he faced all attacks in all conditions was second to none.

 

Why Kohli doesn't give you the same assurance? 

 

I am not jumping to amy judgement but one should have a logical metric to judge or compare. Gives assurance, gives hopes to billions, made sport popular, all these are legacy things that are not considered when gauging a player on merit. 

[singhvivek141]

 

Topic of who was the greatest ODI player.

RESULT

1. Sir Viv Richards

2. Sachin Tendulkar

3. AB DeVilliers

4. Virat Kohli

[R!TTER]

5 hours ago, Chakdephatte said:

Gives assurance, gives hopes to billions, made sport popular, all these are legacy things that are not considered when gauging a player on merit. 

Maybe you missed all those ODI (KO) games where he failed, especially in ICC events before 2023 WC at home?

 

There's that one thing separated SRT with the rest - it's that infallibility when he was at the crease! At his best you knew only he could get himself out, not the bowlers. That's not what you see with RGS/BRat or anyone else from India. There's simply no comparison for anyone who's seen him play live 

[Lord]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Topic of who was the greatest ODI player.

RESULT

1. Sir Viv Richards

2. Sachin Tendulkar

3. AB DeVilliers

4. Virat Kohli

 

That sounds right

[putrevus]

Zaheer Abbas also averages 48 at 85 SR with 7 100s in 62 games. He also had SR  and avg better than most of his peers.But nobody mentions him in the same sentence.

 

Viv played 500 list A games and scored 26 100s.Those  days when Gillette cup  used to mean something.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2025 by putrevus

[Strangering]

There is a difference between quantity of runs scored and the actual impact. 

 

Babar isn't a GOAT despite having GOAT stats. If you understand this statement, you've solved the puzzle. 

[putrevus]

Only a moron will say Babar has GOAT  stats.

[singhvivek141]

49 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Zaheer Abbas also averages 48 at 85 SR with 7 100s in 62 games. He also had SR  and avg better than most of his peers.But nobody mentions him in the same sentence.

 

Viv played 500 list A games and scored 26 100s.Those  days when Gillette cup  used to mean something.

I think he didn't play many ODI games, hence his performances aren't hyped much.
Just like Shane Bond, was an insane bowler in every right. Yet, didn't play enough to have a lasting impact.
If you don't have numbers and a decent enough longevity, the next gen who have never seen you playing live will not remember.

Edited March 7, 2025 by singhvivek141

[kruiser]

4 hours ago, R!TTER said:

Maybe you missed all those ODI (KO) games where he failed, especially in ICC events before 2023 WC at home?

 

There's that one thing separated SRT with the rest - it's that infallibility when he was at the crease! At his best you knew only he could get himself out, not the bowlers. That's not what you see with RGS/BRat or anyone else from India. There's simply no comparison for anyone who's seen him play live 

This. When you see Kohli bat, you feel like he can get out anytime.

No doubt Kohli had played some master classes as well.

I am just glad that 2 Indians are contending for the best batsmen after Viv. 

One thing is common though- both should have retired a few years earlier 

[putrevus]

3 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

I think he didn't play many ODI games, hence his performances aren't hyped much.
Just like Shane Bond, was an insane bowler in every right. Yet, didn't play enough to have a lasting impact.
If you don't have numbers and a decent enough longevity, the next gen who have never seen you playing live will not remember.

I am not saying Zaheer was great .I know Zaheer Abbas scored his runs mainly in Pakistan.But pointing out how people pick and choose players based on their own perceptions. 

 

If you analyse Viv, he does not have numbers either but he is remembered for his few iconic innings, that has given him large than life image.Forgetting the fact that he was supported by the greatest bowling attack.

 

Viv was carried to world cup win in 1975  and to finals in 1979.He flopped against a very weak Indian bowling in 1983 finals because it was beneath him and his ego to score runs at slower pace.

 

1987 he was a non factor for WI as captain.But he is remembered as mr.Clutch.Mind you WI had the strongest bowling unit till 1987 world cup.

 

 

They keep shifting goal post when it comes to Sachin too based on pure perception rather than reality.

 

Other might play more flamboyant innings or score faster .

 

ODI batting template of running singles and keep scoreboard ticking while scoring nearly run a ball.Nobody has done better than Kohli that is why he is my GOAT.

 

 

 

 

[singhvivek141]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

I am not saying Zaheer was great .I know Zaheer Abbas scored his runs mainly in Pakistan.But pointing out how people pick and choose players based on their own perceptions. 

 

If you analyse Viv, he does not have numbers either but he is remembered for his few iconic innings, that has given him large than life image.Forgetting the fact that he was supported by the greatest bowling attack.

 

Viv was carried to world cup win in 1975  and to finals in 1979.He flopped against a very weak Indian bowling in 1983 finals because it was beneath him and his ego to score runs at slower pace.

 

1987 he was a non factor for WI as captain.But he is remembered as mr.Clutch.Mind you WI had the strongest bowling unit till 1987 world cup.

 

 

They keep shifting goal post when it comes to Sachin too based on pure perception rather than reality.

 

Other might play more flamboyant innings or score faster .

 

ODI batting template of running singles and keep scoreboard ticking while scoring nearly run a ball.Nobody has done better than Kohli that is why he is my GOAT.

 

What separates Viv is that he was ahead of his peers...across continents.
His lowest avg was in his own country, else in every other nation he has superior numbers. He was the O.G. if you believe in that word.

Sachin's greatness is in his ability to sustain performance for 24 odd years, he started as a 16 y.o. free flowing kid when Indian domestics were a joke. Took over the world in and at age of 23, was the most talked batsman in 1996 WC ahead of Lara or Ponting or Richie Richardson.
Sachin till 2001 was a proper strokeplayer, slowed down a bit post Sehwag's arrival and then changed his game completely once tennis elbow kicked in. His true greatness was he kept on evolving his game.

Kohli no doubt has an exemplary work ethic and dedication to the game. He has achieved so much courtesy of his immense will power and mental strength.

[Strangering]

1 hour ago, putrevus said:

Only a moron will say Babar has GOAT  stats.

If you're going to use personal expletives, at least elaborate yourself. 

[putrevus]

10 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

What separates Viv is that he was ahead of his peers...across continents.
His lowest avg was in his own country, else in every other nation he has superior numbers. He was the O.G. if you believe in that word.

Sachin's greatness is in his ability to sustain performance for 24 odd years, he started as a 16 y.o. free flowing kid when Indian domestics were a joke. Took over the world in and at age of 23, was the most talked batsman in 1996 WC ahead of Lara or Ponting or Richie Richardson.
Sachin till 2001 was a proper strokeplayer, slowed down a bit post Sehwag's arrival and then changed his game completely once tennis elbow kicked in. His true greatness was he kept on evolving his game.

Kohli no doubt has an exemplary work ethic and dedication to the game. He has achieved so much courtesy of his immense will power and mental strength.

Viv was OG, there is no doubt but he failed in more important matches than he succeeded .

 

We are not debating if Sachin was a great player or not  or was he is not a great stroke maker.

 

But noway he is better odi player than Kohli. 

[singhvivek141]

3 minutes ago, putrevus said:

Viv was OG, there is no doubt but he failed in more important matches than he succeeded .

 

We are not debating if Sachin was a great player or not  or was he is not a great stroke maker.

 

But noway he is better odi player than Kohli. 

This is a never ending debate. We would never know the answer. I would say they both would have been neck to neck had they played together.

I really wished ODI's should have remained the same with one white ball so that we can see how Kohli would have evolved. 2 new ball rule have actually killed all the fun I had in ODI's.
Stats in ODI's are now inflated, an avg of 40 is as normal as an avg of 30's used to be in 90's and early 00's. No way in hell is Adam Gilchrist a poor wk-batter than Quinton De Kock.

[putrevus]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

This is a never ending debate. We would never know the answer. I would say they both would have been neck to neck had they played together.

I really wished ODI's should have remained the same with one white ball so that we can see how Kohli would have evolved. 2 new ball rule have actually killed all the fun I had in ODI's.
Stats in ODI's are now inflated, an avg of 40 is as normal as an avg of 30's used to be in 90's and early 00's. No way in hell is Adam Gilchrist a poor wk-batter than Quinton De Kock.

IMHO it is not even up for debate. A guy who scored more 100s in less than 160 matches with avg near 60. There is very good chance that if he had played 160 more odis, he would be scoring 20 or more 100s.Kohli was not chump who could not handle different bowling either.

 

Kohli played 30 odd matches with Sachin in the team.He did alright in comparision.Granted one was begining their career and other was at the end.

 

We can pick and choose things like that anyway we want.Sachin played in era when 5th bowler was a bowled by a batsman who could bowl.India won world cup with Yuvi as a 5th bowler.Most batsmen filled their boots in those 10 overs.Plus they had extra batsman so top order could take bat with more freedom and bat deeper.

 

You think India was winning without Raina's runs in Mohali.

 

Playing with just three batsmen and washed up Dhoni and Yuvi as middle order for majority of his career .Sachin played with lot better batting lineups.

 

 

Personally in odis if Kohli gets going  and reaches double digits , the assurance he had over run chase or even batting first is something else.Has he lost some bite, offcourse he has lot some bite.

 

I never got the feeling when Sachin batted, there were  moments when Sachin would play some silly shot and get out.Hence the difference in avgs.

Edited March 7, 2025 by putrevus

[tapandrun]

12 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

Topic of who was the greatest ODI player.

RESULT

1. Sir Viv Richards

2. Sachin Tendulkar

3. AB DeVilliers

4. Virat Kohli

Viv stands out in all matrices and raw number and still being relevant after so many changes to the game, it just him and then there is no1 .

Sachin -1 pom per 7.5 games

Kolhi -1 pom per 7 games 

Abd -1 pom per 8.4 gmaes

viv-1 pom per 6 gmaes

 

pom in wc finals --

Sachin -0

kolhi-0 

abd-0

viv-1

 

pos in wc

sachin-1 (but team was nt champion)

kolhi -1 (but team was nt champion)

abd-0

viv-0

 

wc final wins

sachin -1, was heavy contributor in tornament with bat

 

kolhi- 1, not sure if he contributed much

 

abd -0

viv- 2, do not have do not hve data handy.

 

though not a good excuse but only sachin can say he didnt win wc till 2011 bcoz he had a bad team and as soon he got a competitive side he won and then there was a super team in their during his era.

viv was part of super team or some1 who made it super team 

what are kolhi and abd excuses???

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 7, 2025 by tapandrun