G_B_ Posted October 31, 2025 Posted October 31, 2025 3 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: Sorry what specific info are you referring to? Opinions are bound to change based on new info, so certainly if there is information that contradicts my opinion I will change it. but based on what I read it seems to suggest delay in MBDA deliveries, if that’s the information you are referring to, then I am not sure that it absolves the govt. Everything I have read seems to suggest the very reason India went for rafales in fly by condition are because of the imminent need modern jet that can counter f16 threat, depleting squadron strength & the delays expected with indigenisation. So India should have got some meteors out of France’s inventory. If there was none, then the deal itself seems to be flawed. If you have this mentality there will never be any deals. Ge engine for tejas is also delayed. Country supplying us usa who also heavily delayed apaches. Iaf chose to replace mirage 2000. By nearly all parameters the rafale was the right choice. As you can see by the eurofighter deal with uk cost per unit is more than rafale. Forget india the f35 program has seen huge delays. Spanning decades. The suppliers in europe and usa simply dont have industrial capacity to churn out military hardware like china. In the 70s and 80s ussr was capable of supplying india weapons at a good price and within a reasonabls price. Thia resulted in a healthy squadran strength.
IndianRenegade Posted October 31, 2025 Posted October 31, 2025 1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said: MKIs engines is becoming redundant, and its heat signature is massive. Good for standoff strikes but it cant carry deep precision strikes without carrying a wingman (Man or Unmanned). Su57 isnt a true 5th gen stealth, yet its RCS is quite lower than MKI, have more hard points, in body weapon storage and a potential variant with AL51 engine will give it an impeccable maneuverability. Although, there are question marks on the assembly unit in Russia. Recently Indian engineers did went to Russia to check the AL51 engine development, and it will be a key military deal when Putin will come to India. I think engine upgrades are part of super Sukhoi plan, if that’s the case India should just pursue that concentrate on AMCA. putting money into a new jet & infra with dubious 5th gen capabilities isn’t the right choice.
IndianRenegade Posted October 31, 2025 Posted October 31, 2025 (edited) 1 hour ago, G_B_ said: If you have this mentality there will never be any deals. Ge engine for tejas is also delayed. Country supplying us usa who also heavily delayed apaches. Iaf chose to replace mirage 2000. By nearly all parameters the rafale was the right choice. As you can see by the eurofighter deal with uk cost per unit is more than rafale. Forget india the f35 program has seen huge delays. Spanning decades. The suppliers in europe and usa simply dont have industrial capacity to churn out military hardware like china. In the 70s and 80s ussr was capable of supplying india weapons at a good price and within a reasonabls price. Thia resulted in a healthy squadran strength. the question isn't about rafale being a wrong choice or not. the point is BJP govt. got in 2014, at which point PAF had a BVR advantage over IAF, it understood the real consequences of it in 2019. Had 6 years to fix it, it should have been DEFCON 1 at MOD to fix the problem. Not only did PAF added a new PL15 problem, but you didn't have anything that out ranged the F16 AIM after 6 yrs? Letting a bankrupt nation outgun you should be problem that needs accountability. Its easy to blame others, the issues aren't comparable. GE didn't have a manufacturing line open, US air superiority didn't depend on the manufacturing line being open, nor diud their mainland get threatened by an air force. if it did, they will be churning out engines like its hot cakes. if you are buying something off the shelf with no manufacturing in India & selling it as panacea to the balakot problem, then ensure you advertise it properly. we paid billions for ISE specific enhancements, where is the CAG report on it? did our orders on meteor get delayed? if so are we holding MBDA accountbale? why didn't france just give a few from its inventory? or did we buy rafales without meteor ever being integrated? if there is no accountablity for anything you will end up with saffron congress soon. Edited October 31, 2025 by IndianRenegade crictime 1
singhvivek141 Posted October 31, 2025 Posted October 31, 2025 (edited) 4 hours ago, IndianRenegade said: I think engine upgrades are part of super Sukhoi plan, if that’s the case India should just pursue that concentrate on AMCA. putting money into a new jet & infra with dubious 5th gen capabilities isn’t the right choice. As per the limited info, engine upgrade isn't part of Super Sukhoi plan, focus is on upgrading avionics, Uttam AESA radar, advanced EW suites and new weapons integration. This limits MKIs as they don't have super cruise, and as the weapon hardpoints are outside it makes it highly visible to radar. Hence, they cant fly too close to enemy AD. Su57, with AL51 engine (not the AL41) offer supercruise, with deep strike ability and a lower RCS, has more hardpoints hidden within the body. It also theoretically can participate in contested environments. On top of it, HAL's current MKI assembly at Nashik can be easily upgraded to manufacture Su57. https://defence.in/threads/how-hals-nashik-plant-only-needs-20-30-new-tooling-for-su-57e-5th-gen-fighter-production-leveraging-existing-su-30mki-lines.13670/ https://www.eurasiantimes.com/indias-su-30mki-infra-could-be-leveraged-for-su-57/ Edited October 31, 2025 by singhvivek141
G_B_ Posted October 31, 2025 Posted October 31, 2025 4 hours ago, IndianRenegade said: the question isn't about rafale being a wrong choice or not. the point is BJP govt. got in 2014, at which point PAF had a BVR advantage over IAF, it understood the real consequences of it in 2019. Had 6 years to fix it, it should have been DEFCON 1 at MOD to fix the problem. Not only did PAF added a new PL15 problem, but you didn't have anything that out ranged the F16 AIM after 6 yrs? Letting a bankrupt nation outgun you should be problem that needs accountability. Its easy to blame others, the issues aren't comparable. GE didn't have a manufacturing line open, US air superiority didn't depend on the manufacturing line being open, nor diud their mainland get threatened by an air force. if it did, they will be churning out engines like its hot cakes. if you are buying something off the shelf with no manufacturing in India & selling it as panacea to the balakot problem, then ensure you advertise it properly. we paid billions for ISE specific enhancements, where is the CAG report on it? did our orders on meteor get delayed? if so are we holding MBDA accountbale? why didn't france just give a few from its inventory? or did we buy rafales without meteor ever being integrated? if there is no accountablity for anything you will end up with saffron congress soon. I think this post just highlights that you know very little. As most neutral accounts will tell you. The Rafale was supposedly downed due to a kill chain. I have stated this multiple times (which you choose to ignore). Had the Rafale been able to talk to the S400 and be part of the network-oriented approach, things would be different. Not even Pakistani accounts claim that an MkI was downed? Why? This has nothing to do with BVR. This is an integration issue that the IAF failed to see. Ultimately the BJP will act on what the IAF planners tell them. This would have been an issue with any purchases IAF makes, be it Eurofighter or F35. You also seem to very specifically focus on the Rafale procurement issues while ignoring the role of the S400, which has also been pushed by the BJP gov which has been an excellent purchase. This is 10 times more impactful than the Rafale purchase, with more on the way and funding for our own shield. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-russia-in-talks-to-acquire-5-more-s-400-air-defence-systems-101759713801091.html#google_vignette https://defence.in/threads/russia-agrees-to-transfer-critical-s-400-tech-to-indias-private-sector-solidifying-iafs-plans-to-acquire-5-more-squadrons.15759/ This has all been approved so as you put it "defcon" or whatever is on https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/mod-clears-mega-acquisitions-of-s-400-air-defence-missiles-amphibious-warships-among-other-projects-worth-rs-79000-crore/articleshow/124770562.cms So CAG, they should highly praise this "saffron" congress for acting on this shield. We will outgun them 10 times over with a Brahmos while they cant hit us. Seems like a much bigger structural issue for Pakistan and the PAF.
IndianRenegade Posted October 31, 2025 Posted October 31, 2025 3 hours ago, G_B_ said: I think this post just highlights that you know very little. I will let my responses speak for itself rather than attempt to poison the well. 3 hours ago, G_B_ said: As most neutral accounts will tell you. The Rafale was supposedly downed due to a kill chain. I have stated this multiple times (which you choose to ignore). Had the Rafale been able to talk to the S400 and be part of the network-oriented approach, things would be different. Not even Pakistani accounts claim that an MkI was downed? Why? 1. So you are telling me the problems with rafale was it couldn't integrate with s400s? doesn't that make it all the more relevant that there is some transperancy over what ISEs we paid for? whether integratin with existing AD N/W was part of it & what was delivered, without revealing clasified details? 2. I don't know which Pakistani accounts you follow, almost all of them including the official PAF version claims MKI was downed at akhnoor, irrespective of the validity of the claim. 3 hours ago, G_B_ said: This has nothing to do with BVR. This is an integration issue that the IAF failed to see. Ultimately the BJP will act on what the IAF planners tell them. This would have been an issue with any purchases IAF makes, be it Eurofighter or F35. I am sorry you don't seem to fully understand what a kill chain is. Scope/range of the kill chain is very important factor of successful kill chain. Quote Greater weapon range increases the area each kill chains can cover. Mitchell Institute analyses indicate that precision-guided munitions with ranges of 50 to 250 nm that can be delivered in large quantities by reusable stealthy fighters and bombers would not only extend the range of kill chains, but also compress the time to close kill chains, and achieve “affordable mass” for strikes against very large target sets. source: https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/winning-the-kill-chain-competition/ Even if IAF were able to detect PAF fighters at range, unless they came close IAF fighters had no way to engage them as PAF BVRs outrange them. IAF has to rely on S400s to deter them, as evident from from claims of IAF S400s taking out ariel targets while no such claims are made regarding IAF fighters. Quote The effectiveness of the kill chain may have been more important than the capabilities of the specific fighters, said Michael Dahm, a senior fellow at AFA’s Mitchell Institute for Aerospace Studies, who is an expert on Chinese military affairs. Pakistan can “integrate ground radars with fighter jets and airborne early warning aircraft,” said Dahm. “The Pakistani Air Force deployed …’ A’ launched by ‘B’ and guided by ‘C’” and hit the target, he added, citing a May 12 report from China Space News, a Chinese defense industry magazine. Speaking on a recent podcast, Dahm said the chain may have started with a Pakistani ground radar—“maybe a surface-to-air missile system, or some other type of radar system”—which “illuminated the Indian target.” Then, a Pakistani J-10C fighter “launched its missiles, probably at range, and finally, an airborne early warning and control aircraft used a midcourse datalink to update and guide the missile to the Indian fighter.” It was a “long-range shot, beyond visual range,” likely using the export version of China’s PL-15 air-to-air missile, which Dahm said has an 80 nautical mile range. source: https://www.airandspaceforces.com/long-range-kill-chains-edge-processing/ 3 hours ago, G_B_ said: You also seem to very specifically focus on the Rafale procurement issues while ignoring the role of the S400, which has also been pushed by the BJP gov which has been an excellent purchase. This is 10 times more impactful than the Rafale purchase, with more on the way and funding for our own shield. https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-russia-in-talks-to-acquire-5-more-s-400-air-defence-systems-101759713801091.html#google_vignette https://defence.in/threads/russia-agrees-to-transfer-critical-s-400-tech-to-indias-private-sector-solidifying-iafs-plans-to-acquire-5-more-squadrons.15759/ This has all been approved so as you put it "defcon" or whatever is on https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/mod-clears-mega-acquisitions-of-s-400-air-defence-missiles-amphibious-warships-among-other-projects-worth-rs-79000-crore/articleshow/124770562.cms So CAG, they should highly praise this "saffron" congress for acting on this shield. We will outgun them 10 times over with a Brahmos while they cant hit us. Seems like a much bigger structural issue for Pakistan and the PAF. Not at all, S400s are win. bramhos are a win. But losing fighters to what should be an inferior airforce should not be brushed under the carpet. We will win most battles against PAF. But what do we do wne we are going to go against PLAF? ignoring failures because we won today will come back to bite us.
Lone Wolf Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 I have extremely little gripe with Indian Navy they have been professional since decades and Except on Submarine front (which is purely GoI fault)... It has been awesome too see our Naval firepower increasing. IAF otoh has always been a mess, cut commission kickbags under phoren influence.
singhvivek141 Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 4 hours ago, IndianRenegade said: But losing fighters to what should be an inferior airforce should not be brushed under the carpet. We will win most battles against PAF. But what do we do wne we are going to go against PLAF? ignoring failures because we won today will come back to bite us. There are few ways to deal with the current situation. 1. Use Surface to ground missiles to destroy the airbases and runways...this will ensure the jets will have no option but to remain airborne for significant amount of time or perform a vertical landing, both carry heavy risk to jet and the pilot. We have the advantage there. 2. Develop indigenous BVR's, as we discussed in above posts...Astra mk1 is getting redundant due to its limited range. Mk2 & Mk3 are the game changer, but they're few years away from induction. Meteors can hypothetically, but theyve their own complications, then there is R37 as well which will work with MKI but the deal is not off the shelf yet, so till then we've to rely on AD systems to keep the enemy aircrafts away. 3. Rely on radar jamming, Rudram missiles are key here. They're necessary for SEAD, DEAD....causing the enemy jets to fly blind. 4. Tejas seems to have successfully integrated man-unmanned teaming, this will ensure every fighter jet Flys with some unmanned drones as their wingman. Giving option to go closer to enemy airspace and launch aerial attacks. 5. Go for stealth, 5th gen aircrafts are limited and except F35, none of them are battle tested (Su57 was used in limited scale in Ukraine war). With lower RCS, it allows to fly in enemy zone undetected for longer time... Realistically, 2028 onwards we will be able to see the real change in our combat capabilities...why 2030-31 is when we will have a strong enough air superiority to cause enough deterrence. Till then, we need to stick to defensive posturing against them.
singhvivek141 Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 17 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said: I have extremely little gripe with Indian Navy they have been professional since decades and Except on Submarine front (which is purely GoI fault)... It has been awesome too see our Naval firepower increasing. IAF otoh has always been a mess, cut commission kickbags under phoren influence. Navy had one advantage that it didnt face immediate challenges from Pakistan...hence it had time to navigate through the bureaucracy. Pak Navy is their weakest arm and hence that helped Indian Navy to plan strategically. Inclusion of Arihant class SSBNs, anti submarine destroyers, multiple warships and then the third aircraft carrier are some of the projects which Navy has either accomplished or on the verge of doing it. IAF too had that cooling period but suddenly post Uri...they are in the spotlight. Plus, many countries in the world are relying heavily on airforce. Navy is still too expensive for most of the countries to maintain.
singhvivek141 Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 @IndianRenegade As part of Sukhoi upgrade, IAF is also seeking Anti Radar jammers for MKIs. Shows, MKI is currently vulnerable in the modern warfare https://defence.in/threads/iaf-seeks-100-made-in-india-self-protection-jammer-pods-for-su-30mki-sets-36-month-delivery-time-for-faster-integration.15931/
Lone Wolf Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 (edited) 1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said: Navy had one advantage that it didnt face immediate challenges from Pakistan...hence it had time to navigate through the bureaucracy. Which makes it even more exemplary.. I have been reading stuff about some great Admirals have had the foresight that Indian Ocean needs a strong Indian Naval presence regardless of an armed conflict... We are reaping rewards of that now.. coz of our power projection capabilities within Indian Ocean and SEA. There is a reason Pentagon never rates our land forces and Air force but they always kept an eye out for our Indian Naval strength and wanted more of that in South China seas as well though we never played ball. Regardless Admirals took all the feedback and navigated through all those bureaucratic roadblocks regardless of who was in power. Even with our old Submarines numbers dwindling (sadly) they Have kept the Anti Sub warships numbers in good stead IAF barely kept up with PAF and it is extremely pathetic to see its current state... Sem2sem mindset and continuous delays from HAL and bureaucratic hurdles never helped Edited November 1, 2025 by Lone Wolf
crictime Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 16 hours ago, IndianRenegade said: the question isn't about rafale being a wrong choice or not. the point is BJP govt. got in 2014, at which point PAF had a BVR advantage over IAF, it understood the real consequences of it in 2019. Had 6 years to fix it, it should have been DEFCON 1 at MOD to fix the problem. Not only did PAF added a new PL15 problem, but you didn't have anything that out ranged the F16 AIM after 6 yrs? Letting a bankrupt nation outgun you should be problem that needs accountability. Its easy to blame others, the issues aren't comparable. GE didn't have a manufacturing line open, US air superiority didn't depend on the manufacturing line being open, nor diud their mainland get threatened by an air force. if it did, they will be churning out engines like its hot cakes. if you are buying something off the shelf with no manufacturing in India & selling it as panacea to the balakot problem, then ensure you advertise it properly. we paid billions for ISE specific enhancements, where is the CAG report on it? did our orders on meteor get delayed? if so are we holding MBDA accountbale? why didn't france just give a few from its inventory? or did we buy rafales without meteor ever being integrated? if there is no accountablity for anything you will end up with saffron congress soon. It has been 11 years now. This timeframe should have been enough to solve major defense gaps in terms of quality and quantity.
ravishingravi Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 NOTAM on both Pak border and North East.
Lone Wolf Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 (edited) @IndianRenegade condition of Indian infantry gear at present. Jernails and Baboos don't even regret when foreign professional forces arrive with their modern gear and equipment for exercises. Another banger on bureaucratic problems ailing us in terms of defence acquisitions @singhvivek141 intresting info this Edited November 1, 2025 by Lone Wolf
Lone Wolf Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 3 hours ago, ravishingravi said: NOTAM on both Pak border and North East.
singhvivek141 Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 4 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: Seems internal pressure from Pak has pushed Munir to do the same. Many independent youtube journalists in Pook were calling out Indian aggression and estbalishment's silence. Seems like a response for the same.
singhvivek141 Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 5 hours ago, Lone Wolf said: @IndianRenegade condition of Indian infantry gear at present. Jernails and Baboos don't even regret when foreign professional forces arrive with their modern gear and equipment for exercises. Another banger on bureaucratic problems ailing us in terms of defence acquisitions @singhvivek141 intresting info this Army too have their issues Sharang gun has been found with major issues, now they are looking for pvt partners. Time is ripe to increase the defence budget to 2.5-3% of GDP. Though, its will effect the internal elections where revdi is needed.
Lone Wolf Posted November 1, 2025 Posted November 1, 2025 10 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said: Army too have their issues Sharang gun has been found with major issues, now they are looking for pvt partners. Time is ripe to increase the defence budget to 2.5-3% of GDP. Though, its will effect the internal elections where revdi is needed. They can easily do this if there is fraction of goodwill and vision. Indian firms have been supplying modern gear to many countries but our Jernails and Baboos only larp on Phoren maaal for kickbags and order in smaller numbers as token acts. The mess is way too deep. Only guy was willing to get his hands dirty was Late CDS Rawat saab... Monumental loss for India.
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