someone Posted August 14, 2025 Posted August 14, 2025 34 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: This is an issue with democracy, where minorities use their vote bank to achieve their demands. But on the other side, a majority in democracy forms a government, and it is in a position of taking away a lot of rights away from minorities as majority becomes the king. In Indian context, Hindutva majority have made Indian Muslims a 2nd or perhaps a 3rd grade citizen, who are always doubted to be traitors, pushed in ghettos, and they are compelled to live under fear of Hindutva majority. Police and all other state agencies work according to the wishes of Hindutva majority. Context is very important, while India is moving towards far right religious nationalist fascism under Hindutva, and it is a huge mistake. Please understand, such a far right Hindutva fascist India is not only going to be hated by Muslims, but by the entire world in one way or another. And Indian society will become totally polarized itself from inside. The hatred, that is present in today, it is unprecedented in the past. Which prime minister said Muslims have first right on our resources? Which governments are giving Muslims reservations in OBC/SC quota? Why communal Shiv Sena (Uddhav) are getting Muslims votes? Why are major Hindu temples heavily guarded? Whom did the Palgram attacks happen? What were the victims made to say? The biggest threat to India both internally, and externally are the same, and you are in denial of it. On topic, you are an example of modern people awareness, just limited to surface. Even today, so called secular party, Samajwadi Party, sacked its own MLA, just because she spoke against the now dead, Muslim gangster. But you won’t know of it. Again, shows how Indian politics is centric to their veto power. Also , how India needs its own global new channels, external prospective than internal, its own words, it’s own books, it’s own POV about happenings of the world, its history . Else ppl like yourself know only incomplete, one-sided info either knowingly or unknowingly. coffee_rules 1
Alam_dar Posted August 14, 2025 Posted August 14, 2025 16 minutes ago, mishra said: Now you are using typical logic , Population is innocent. Which Palestinian doesnt Support Hamas? Oki, which political group of politicians from Gaza rigin oppose Hamas? Apparently, there are many like Fatah and pro-PA supporters, Leftist and secular groups (like Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) are Marxist/secular Palestinian factions), and Civil society (like journalists, writers and human rights activists etc.), though most cannot operate openly because Hamas runs Gaza as a single-party. Opposition is silenced through arrests and intimidation by Hamas. But this is not the point. The point is, even if civilian population support Hamas, still civilians (non-armed) people cannot be killed or displaced. Is Israel any better than Hamas? PLO indeed accepted Israel's right to exist, but what Israel did? It denied return of Palestinians, occupied illegal settlements, declared them a part of Israel, killed and exiled Palestinians from their homes, and if anyone resisted, then Israel put them to death or in prisons. This is called State Terrorism, which is as bad as Hamas' terrorism, but the western world didn't declare Israel to be a terrorist state and didn't punish it by putting sanctions. There was no Hamas present before Israeli betrayal of PLO and taking more and more Palestinian land illegally. Hamas was only born and got popularity due to that state sponsored terrorism of Israel. Just like you today is of opinion that killing all Hamas and civilian population of Gaza has become permissible, similarly Hamas also thinks the same and use exactly the same logic for killing Israelis, including civilians. 28 minutes ago, mishra said: I am giving you factual practical positions and causes As I said, one and only reason you are Supporting Palestinian is because you see Palestine as Pakistan's friend. Muslims see them as Muslim. So a Muslim Pakistan will go extra mile. This assumption is not true. If that was the case, then not a single Jew had ever criticized Israel and condemned the Palestinian genocide. But we see millions of Jews, both in Israel in the US, who are bitterly criticizing Israel for this genocide and usurping of the Palestinian land. 32 minutes ago, mishra said: PS: It takes atlease three generations for a person to leave the religion. So if you think you left Islam, Actually it will be children of your grand kids who will trully leave Islam. Based On personal theyexperience I fee Culture is not that easy to leave from System. Christians of Greece are civilisational people than Christians of any other part of world. Each time I have met them, I have noticed that. Even Egytians behave according to civilisation despite their religion mandating them exactly otherwise. You can sense the cultural warmth. Its exactly the reason why Pakistanis are confused brunch. Religion says them otherwise but culture pushes them to give a hug when they see a fellow Indian. I again don't think that it is true. Among ex-Muslims, we have all kind of people. Some criticize Israel for genocide, while there are some who think exactly how you think, i.e. they never criticize Israel, but want Palestinians either to be killed or to be driven out of the Gaza and the West Bank. Israel/Palestine issue is a very minute issue. Most ex-Muslims went through the process of leaving Islam, which was a nightmare for a believing persons like me. And if we didn't need 3 generations for leaving Islam, then we will also not need 3 generations to do justice in Israel/Palestine issue.
mishra Posted August 14, 2025 Posted August 14, 2025 (edited) 48 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: Apparently, there are many like Fatah and pro-PA supporters, Leftist and secular groups (like Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP) and Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP) are Marxist/secular Palestinian factions), and Civil society (like journalists, writers and human rights activists etc.), though most cannot operate openly because Hamas runs Gaza as a single-party. Opposition is silenced through arrests and intimidation by Hamas. But this is not the point. The point is, even if civilian population support Hamas, still civilians (non-armed) people cannot be killed or displaced. Is Israel any better than Hamas? PLO indeed accepted Israel's right to exist, but what Israel did? It denied return of Palestinians, occupied illegal settlements, declared them a part of Israel, killed and exiled Palestinians from their homes, and if anyone resisted, then Israel put them to death or in prisons. This is called State Terrorism, which is as bad as Hamas' terrorism, but the western world didn't declare Israel to be a terrorist state and didn't punish it by putting sanctions. Whats your point in telling me all this. If book says Jihad still most in Muslim world is not going on killing people but infact letting people of other religions make their places of worship in a Islamic country does that means they become non Muslim. Or is Trump is a democratic person compared to MBS? All these UN Rules and system are for one and only one reason. "Gareeb ki Pitthi Maarane ke liye". See I dont know any of those orgs u mentioned. Thats how far I am from Gazans. But to make it simple for you, Just like Pakistan Army keeps a PM Mr Sharif to deal with Western nations PM, Same reason could be why Hamas will let these people/ideology alive in their land. 48 minutes ago, Alam_dar said: This assumption is not true. If that was the case, then not a single Jew had ever criticized Israel and condemned the Palestinian genocide. But we see millions of Jews, both in Israel in the US, who are bitterly criticizing Israel for this genocide and usurping of the Palestinian land. See above bolded part. Only way to gurantee outcome of a Chess game is when you play from both Sides. Thats how it works, Just that players and spectators dont know it. Still dont believe it. Just take a note from your own history. English wanted partition of India. For negotiations, tyhey asked 4 people represented Muslim league. 4 People represented Congres. In all six Muslims and 2 Hindus sat together in front of English. Partition was the outcome. BTW I have no doubt to integrity and natinalism of two Muslims representing Congress in the negotiations. They were planted by English know exactly well that it would make 2 Hindu pilticians understand what 4 Muslim league politicians wanted. 1 hour ago, someone said: I again don't think that it is true. Among ex-Muslims, we have all kind of people. Some criticize Israel for genocide, while there are some who think exactly how you think, i.e. they never criticize Israel, but want Palestinians either to be killed or to be driven out of the Gaza and the West Bank. Israel/Palestine issue is a very minute issue. Most ex-Muslims went through the process of leaving Islam, which was a nightmare for a believing persons like me. And if we didn't need 3 generations for leaving Islam, then we will also not need 3 generations to do justice in Israel/Palestine issue. I told you based on study. But may be I am wrong Edited August 14, 2025 by mishra coffee_rules 1
coffee_rules Posted August 14, 2025 Posted August 14, 2025 19 hours ago, Alam_dar said: The core of your argument seems to rest on the idea that Hindutva is fighting for its "survival" while other religions are about "supremacy and expansion." But this claim contains a significant logical and practical contradiction. Firstly, it is difficult to reconcile the idea of "survival" with the demographic reality of India. Hinduism is practiced by an overwhelming majority of the population. In this context, how can Hindutva credibly claim to be fighting for survival against small minorities like Indian Muslims and Christians? These minority groups are not in a position to threaten the existence of the majority faith. The narrative of "survival" appears to be a tool used to justify a political and religious movement, not a reflection of any real threat to the Hindu faith itself. 22% to 7 % in BD. 2 % in Pakistan. Not that hard to imagine, as Muslims populating is growing in India. The "survival" is not just from threats of growing Muslim population. Dharmic identity has found a new revival post 90s. Earlier and even noew, some Hindus feel ashed of a lot about Hindusim as they are not in schools or at home anything about Hinduism. The threat is mainly from Secular people. The Left liberal educated who are brainwshed with western philosphy. Hindusim has to suruvive the threats from within. 19 hours ago, Alam_dar said: You also brought up the point about all religions not being the same, particularly with regard to preaching. However, the right to preach and practice one's faith is a fundamental principle of a secular, pluralistic society like India. It is a right enshrined in the Constitution. If some adherents of Hinduism choose not to preach their faith, that is their prerogative, not an issue to be blamed on others. To criticize Muslims or Christians for doing what their faith and the law allows them to do is a double standard. Furthermore, history shows that Hinduism has expanded and been preached far beyond India's borders, in places like Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia, often supported by powerful empires. This demonstrates that the act of spreading one's faith is not unique to any one religion. There is a right to preach to your own peoplee. Not to spread the gospel, cleanse others' souls, let others find the one true god. Constitution doesn't cover conversion theough coersion or threatening. Hindus are not allowed to teach about Hinduism in schools, others get to do on the basis of minpority benefits. The fruits of faux secularism in India. , Congregation of Hindus is shunned . Kawariya yatra, Kumbh gets so much oppisition from politicians. But the jagriti has happened, people are not afrain anymore of congregation, satsang, teerth yatra etc. The main problem is not preaching, Islam and Christianity have the concept of non-believers/kaffirs. That kind of supremacy is not there in Hinduism for it to be equated to all other abrahamic dogmatic religions. Islamic people chant 5 times in one day in loud speakjers that there is no one to be worsjipped other than Allah. Christians believe all are born sinners and those who don't believe in Jesus, will die in etrnal hell. That kind of practice should not be allowed by the constitution. Respect all and believe that al paths lead to same god in the end. Hindusim in ASEAN is not recorded in History that it went with powerful armies and spread the faith on fear. The people themselves were attracted to the philosophy of Karma, Dharma and followed on their own. Hence, people don't convert to Hindusim, they just follow it on their own accord. 19 hours ago, Alam_dar said: The claim that Hindutva is an underdog fighting against foreign-funded religions also doesn't hold up to scrutiny. The reality is that Hindutva movements and organizations are politically and financially powerful, with resources that far exceed those of Christian and Muslim movements within India. The notion of a minority community receiving vast sums from abroad to destabilize the majority is a narrative that serves to create fear, not to reflect reality. There is no money or unity in Hindusim. What are you blabbering about? They can't be compared with Vatican/Mecca. There is a lot of following worldwide. How do you think Christianity spread around the world, and in India too. Go to NE, they have got the GoI to declare advasis or tribals are not Hindus and have got a free pass to baptize the whole of tribal belt. Madrasas are run in India, Pakistan mainly from money coming from the Ummah. They are blessed by the govt in the name of minority status. 25 crores is not a minorty. They are the second mhority ommunity for you to keep harping on Muslim minority status. 19 hours ago, Alam_dar said: In conclusion, the idea that Hindutva is merely a defensive movement for "survival" seems to be a pretext. The actions and rhetoric associated with it appear to be about asserting a form of religious and cultural supremacy, rather than protecting against a genuine threat of extinction. The "bogeyman" of outside forces and radicalization is not being "forced upon" Hindutva; it's a narrative that is used by the movement itself to deflect from its own aims. As I said, you can conclude whatever you want. In case of Hindutva, it is mainly because of the threats from Abrahamic religions and western philosophy of secularism. That is the main threat and Hinduism has to fight all fronts. This is like a annual thing for you. You keep coming here even after you have been schooled so many times and your false opinions on Dharma is not going away. I think your ex-Muslim status is just a pretext to spread false opinionand lies about Hinduism 4 hours ago, Alam_dar said: I don't think these things have to do anything with the narrative of Hindutva fighting for “survival” in India today. Although many Muslim rulers took Jizya, but I think Mughuls mostly didn't take any Jizya (except for Organzaib, who was a fanatic Muslim and who took Jizya). However, Himayun and Akbar eras were free of any such Jizyas. Humayun was chased out of India. Babar was a ghazi as he declared it himself and wanted to spread the word of Islam through his sword. Akabar did impose Jiziya and later aboloished it. Don't whitewash their acts . They never considered India their homeland and Presian was their lanuage. Akbar wanted to establish his own caliphate like the Turks, but later his ummam started calling him a kaffir for denouncing Islamic ways. They all had harems of thousans of women being raped daily. 4 hours ago, Alam_dar said: But the main point is, again this has nothing to do with the narrative of survival of Hindutva in India today. Please don't move to national religious fascism and do with Muslims what they did to you in the past. Yes, do control them and don't let them do things freely as in Europe, but a balance will be the best for humanity. Ok, We will do that. We learn from the past and don't blame the present day populace for the evils done by their ancestors. The threat of Hindu fascism itself is a wrong notion spread by commies and secularists. They are the front for IslamoChristian fascists. 4 hours ago, Alam_dar said: These are not only Indian Muslims who are fearful of this modern Hindutva, but other minorities are too fearful of it, including Secularists. If Hindutva moves to far right, then it will only benefit fanatical Wahabi Deobandi Muslims, while Sufi type non-violent Muslims will lose the battle against these fanatic Muslim groups. Fear-mongering as usual. Hindutva is about abolishing caste system and putting national identity over ALL religious identities. AuxiliA and someone 2
Alam_dar Posted August 14, 2025 Posted August 14, 2025 2 hours ago, mishra said: All these UN Rules and system are for one and only one reason. "Gareeb ki Pitthi Maarane ke liye". The issue is, humans are not 100% perfect by nature. We all have flaws. But does these some flaws mean we don't deserve to be alive and should be killed? No, of course not. We deserve to stay alive, despite our some flaws. The same is true with humans made systems. These systems are also not 100% flawless. But this does not mean we have to end these systems. No, but we have to keep them intact and keep on improving them. The UN is not able to resolve all crises in the world. It still has a lot of flaws, as it is extremely difficult to control countries with power and influence. But despite these flaws in the UN, still it has served HUMANITY a lot since its inception. There was no war in Western Europe for the last 75 years (otherwise they were fighting each other every other generation throughout their history). Destroying the UN wouldn’t remove global power imbalances, but it would just remove one of the few arenas where smaller nations at least have a voice, and where diplomacy can avert disaster. It’s a typical far-right (or extreme) mindset to say: “This thing isn’t perfect, so scrap it entirely.” They see flaws, then jump straight to destruction rather than improvement. 2 hours ago, mishra said: I told you based on study. But may be I am wrong The study may be correct in case of how Europeans are leaving their religion. It took them indeed generations to cover this journey. However, becoming ex-Muslims is our personal journey and it ended in not only leaving Islam, but having a deep hatred against Islam. It destroyed our lives. Our own parents and families don't want to have anything with us and they boycott us. Actually, there are ex-Muslims, who have been killed by their own families (including ex-Muslim girls, who were asking for help. We were only hearing their cries but not able to help them).
Alam_dar Posted August 14, 2025 Posted August 14, 2025 There is a huge contradiction in your following 2 statements: 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: Earlier and even noew, some Hindus feel ashed of a lot about Hindusim as they are not in schools or at home anything about Hinduism. The threat is mainly from Secular people. The Left liberal educated who are brainwshed with western philosphy. Hindusim has to suruvive the threats from within. 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: There is a right to preach to your own peoplee. Not to spread the gospel, cleanse others' souls, let others find the one true god. Constitution doesn't cover conversion theough coersion or threatening. Hindus are not allowed to teach about Hinduism in schools, others get to do on the basis of minpority benefits. The fruits of faux secularism in India. , Congregation of Hindus is shunned . Kawariya yatra, Kumbh gets so much oppisition from politicians. But the jagriti has happened, people are not afrain anymore of congregation, satsang, teerth yatra etc. The main problem is not preaching, Islam and Christianity have the concept of non-believers/kaffirs. That kind of supremacy is not there in Hinduism for it to be equated to all other abrahamic dogmatic religions. Islamic people chant 5 times in one day in loud speakjers that there is no one to be worsjipped other than Allah. Christians believe all are born sinners and those who don't believe in Jesus, will die in etrnal hell. That kind of practice should not be allowed by the constitution. Respect all and believe that al paths lead to same god in the end. Hindusim in ASEAN is not recorded in History that it went with powerful armies and spread the faith on fear. The people themselves were attracted to the philosophy of Karma, Dharma and followed on their own. Hence, people don't convert to Hindusim, they just follow it on their own accord. Here are the contradictions: 1. Who stopped Hindu families to educate their children in their homes? They are freely doing Pujas and all other things in their homes and there is no opposition to it either from the constitution or from society. 2. If Hindus are themselves ashamed of doing it, then it is not the fault of anyone else. And it doesn't mean that Hindutva by force start preaching Hinduism in schools to minorities, and other who don't want to learn about Hindutva. 3. Blaming secularism for brainwashing Hindus is also a lie. Secularists are also not allowed to teach about atheism in schools. But the issue is, education spreads awareness and it itself starts questioning religions and religious practices. So, please blame education, but not secularists. Left Liberals didn't ascend directly from the heavens, but it is this awareness due to education, which made them to question religion and religious practices. And it didn't happen only in India, but also in Europe too, which was the first place where religion of Christianity and Judaism were challenged by education. And it is also happening in Muslim countries too, where these are mostly highly educated professors and people who are secular and becoming ex-Muslims. 4. And secularists also don't have any centers like Mecca or Vatican City. It even doesn't have any Mandirs/temples, or any money, or any gatherings like Kumb Mela, or any rituals or any religious books etc. 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: The people themselves were attracted to the philosophy of Karma, Dharma and followed on their own. Hence, people don't convert to Hindusim, they just follow it on their own accord. 5. The reality of today is, the people are themselves attracted to secularism due to awareness and education. They are no more ready to believe in fantasy stories of religions, but they believe in science. They don't convert to secularism, but they just follow it on their own accord. 1 hour ago, coffee_rules said: In case of Hindutva, it is mainly because of the threats from Abrahamic religions and western philosophy of secularism. 6. Secularism is not a western philosophy. This is a lie. It is a "UNIVERSAL" philosophy, and not limited to any area. Charvakas existed in India much before the British Christians came to the Indian subcontinent.
Alam_dar Posted August 14, 2025 Posted August 14, 2025 5 hours ago, someone said: Which prime minister said Muslims have first right on our resources? Which governments are giving Muslims reservations in OBC/SC quota? Why communal Shiv Sena (Uddhav) are getting Muslims votes? Why are major Hindu temples heavily guarded? Whom did the Palgram attacks happen? What were the victims made to say? The biggest threat to India both internally, and externally are the same, and you are in denial of it. On topic, you are an example of modern people awareness, just limited to surface. Even today, so called secular party, Samajwadi Party, sacked its own MLA, just because she spoke against the now dead, Muslim gangster. But you won’t know of it. Again, shows how Indian politics is centric to their veto power. Also , how India needs its own global new channels, external prospective than internal, its own words, it’s own books, it’s own POV about happenings of the world, its history . Else ppl like yourself know only incomplete, one-sided info either knowingly or unknowingly. Dear @someone These are only a few exceptional cases and Muslim mindset should be countered and I myself encourage it. However, these a few exceptional cases again don't prove that Hindutva is in any way fighting for its "survival" due to the Muslim minority. This narrative is wrong, and it is the Muslim minority who is living in fear due to far right mindset of Hindutva. In simple words, I only want to warn and request Hindu friends to be on alert and not let Hindu movement slip to the far right fascist position. It will not in interest of all of us. Rather, make BJP a platform which provides justice and security to all citizens, keep it somewhere to the center (or even to center right) so that even all minorities can join this platform without any fears. It will be in the best interest of all.
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