Saudi and Pak sign NATO like mutual defense agreement

[IndianRenegade]

6 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

I felt exactly the same ( as below ) as soon as this became news. That this is Saudis way of

expressing displeasure at us taking away their thunder in the energy business and buying our crude from Russia. 
 

Everything was great in the relationship till we were one of their biggest oil purchasing clients.
 

India should have learnt long time back that the Gulf countries are also the biggest hypocrites  in the world - as long as you buy oil and gas from them - you can do no wrong - biggest proof of this ? — See how not a single Arabic / Muslim country ( be it Saudi or Qatar or Turkey ) utters a single word against Chinese treatment of Uighurs Muslims — because China has bought them off with energy deals. This is their true reality - @IndianRenegade @mishra @Lone Wolf

 

 

 

 

I am not sure we can blame Saudi's for what they are doing. Like we are doing what is best for us, they are doing what is best for them. Until the start of Ukraine war, India had achieved a signifigant diplomatic isolation of Pakistan & we had imported 19% of our oil from Saudis, with a beligerant & almost rogue Israel (at least from their POV) they can't rely on US support to take on Israel. So they went back to their old henchmen who will provide men & nukes to assure its safety.

 

The fact is our allies are caught up in irresponsible wars that is causing secondary effects impacting us. There is a cease fire deal for Russia on the table - It keeps the territory it has occupied & in return for security guarantees. Instead of sealing the deal it continues to prosecute a war in which it probably can hope to gain a minuscule territory in exchange of thousands of dead & years of lost time that can be spent on improving ppls lives. its refusal to do the sensible thing is screwing up our relations with the west as they see us as the soft target compared to china.

 

Israel taking on GCC states have made them scamper for their henchman. 

 

we have been made convinent punching bags to deter russia as china is much more self sufficient & even though the Saudi deal isn't aimed at us, it will give Pakistan much needed cash inflow & diplomatic clout among GCC nations. When Pakistani have money & diplomatic support they will misbehave with us. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2025 by IndianRenegade

[IndianRenegade]

6 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

We're not buying much from Saudi's anyway, their oil extraction and refining capability is limited and anyway their supply to West is sufficient.
 

We used to buy 19% of oil from the saudi's befor the ukraine war, now its down to 13-14% I believe. 

[pkmmamks]

22 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

None of what China has is really combat tested against a credible adversary. So everything that they show needs to be taken with a bucketful of salt. 
 

We cannot match them for numbers presently because we neither have that kind of budget nor manufacturing scale and capacity. 

 

It is going to be about superior training and tactics. 
 

Chinese had the biggest advantage to produce the most potent vaccines for COVID - given that it originated in Wuhan - yet it was Indian vaccines that were sought world over for effectiveness -  not Chinese. Many of our firms built them indigenously. 
 

I see Chinese weapons technology with the same scepticism unless they are combat proven.  

 

This is what is generally called coping mechanism 

 

Hamare waale banate nahi to doosre ka kya hi chalega 

[rangeelaraja]

1 hour ago, pkmmamks said:

This is what is generally called coping mechanism 

 

Hamare waale banate nahi to doosre ka kya hi chalega 

No it is called common sense. The reason why F16s, MIGs etc are so widely used is because they have undergone combat test in real combat conditions over millions of hours cumulatively. It is a fact that Chinese high end equipment  is not war tested - did their air defence that they sold to Pak not entirely

fail in Op Sindoor ? Hell, a rogue Brahmos hit Mia chhunu a few years back and they could do nothing to intercept it either. 
 

This is not some random electronic item that made in China will deliver promised results. 
 

Defense procurements around the world are well thought and researched - jabbb itna Chinese maal bikta hai waise, high end defense equipment mein bhikmange Pak ke Sivai, can you tell me one serious decent power that buys their high end equipment? 
 

common sense mere bhai, pure common sense. 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, pkmmamks said:

This is what is generally called coping mechanism 

 

Hamare waale banate nahi to doosre ka kya hi chalega 

Kyu banaenge...hamari adat jo hai rone wali har baat pe.

 

Kuch achcha bhi karo to log muh utha ke aa jayenge ki tumne ye nahi kiya, wo nahi kiya. Appreciate karna to jaise bhul hi gaye hai. No wonder why Pak is ahead of us in Information Warfare.

 

China ki P15 missile kheton me phuss padi mili, India ki Brahmos missile ne tabahi Macha di, Akash AD ne ek bhi bada loss nahi hone diya. Abhi to Agni missile game me aai hi nahi, wo aati to Pak ke China-US made Airforce ke cheethade udd jate. But no, we are hell bent on crying ki kitne Rafale udd gaye.

 

India has ability to make nuclear powered submarine. Our missile system and AD is elite in the world..but nahi, hame to rona hai ki hamare wale kuch nahi banate. 

[pkmmamks]

57 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Kyu banaenge...hamari adat jo hai rone wali har baat pe.

 

Kuch achcha bhi karo to log muh utha ke aa jayenge ki tumne ye nahi kiya, wo nahi kiya. Appreciate karna to jaise bhul hi gaye hai. No wonder why Pak is ahead of us in Information Warfare.

 

China ki P15 missile kheton me phuss padi mili, India ki Brahmos missile ne tabahi Macha di, Akash AD ne ek bhi bada loss nahi hone diya. Abhi to Agni missile game me aai hi nahi, wo aati to Pak ke China-US made Airforce ke cheethade udd jate. But no, we are hell bent on crying ki kitne Rafale udd gaye.

 

India has ability to make nuclear powered submarine. Our missile system and AD is elite in the world..but nahi, hame to rona hai ki hamare wale kuch nahi banate. 

Mat karo bhai. Aise hi baithe raho.

 

Wahan ladai hamare appreciation se nahi ladi jaati. It requires equipment 

[pkmmamks]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

No it is called common sense. The reason why F16s, MIGs etc are so widely used is because they have undergone combat test in real combat conditions over millions of hours cumulatively. It is a fact that Chinese high end equipment  is not war tested - did their air defence that they sold to Pak not entirely

fail in Op Sindoor ? Hell, a rogue Brahmos hit Mia chhunu a few years back and they could do nothing to intercept it either. 
 

This is not some random electronic item that made in China will deliver promised results. 
 

Defense procurements around the world are well thought and researched - jabbb itna Chinese maal bikta hai waise, high end defense equipment mein bhikmange Pak ke Sivai, can you tell me one serious decent power that buys their high end equipment? 
 

common sense mere bhai, pure common sense. 

The first step is to make it. It's not common sense. It is coping mechanism because they are ahead 

[pkmmamks]

1 hour ago, singhvivek141 said:

Kyu banaenge...hamari adat jo hai rone wali har baat pe.

 

Kuch achcha bhi karo to log muh utha ke aa jayenge ki tumne ye nahi kiya, wo nahi kiya. Appreciate karna to jaise bhul hi gaye hai. No wonder why Pak is ahead of us in Information Warfare.

 

China ki P15 missile kheton me phuss padi mili, India ki Brahmos missile ne tabahi Macha di, Akash AD ne ek bhi bada loss nahi hone diya. Abhi to Agni missile game me aai hi nahi, wo aati to Pak ke China-US made Airforce ke cheethade udd jate. But no, we are hell bent on crying ki kitne Rafale udd gaye.

 

India has ability to make nuclear powered submarine. Our missile system and AD is elite in the world..but nahi, hame to rona hai ki hamare wale kuch nahi banate. 

Aap ab bhi munh utha ke purani govts ko criticise karte rehte ho, tab appreciation ka dhyaan nahi aata 

[rangeelaraja]

6 minutes ago, pkmmamks said:

The first step is to make it. It's not common sense. It is coping mechanism because they are ahead 

Criticizing unproved quality ( as was demonstrated during Sindoor ) is not coping it’s just stating facts. Just because they are 

“ ahead “ it doesn’t mean their wares can hold their own in a real battle. 
 

And proof of the matter is in actual business - apart from 3rd world countries who can’t afford the best western tech, which country trusts their tech ? Do you think it’s not been tested and rejected ? 
 

why do you think the Arab countries that are flush with money go for Rafales, Typhoons, F series planes and not Chinese “5th generation “ tech ?  
 

that answers everything. 

[singhvivek141]

13 minutes ago, pkmmamks said:

Aap ab bhi munh utha ke purani govts ko criticise karte rehte ho, tab appreciation ka dhyaan nahi aata 

Purani govt. ke sahi kaamo ka appreciation bhi kiya jata hai.
IG ki tareef hoti hai for 1971 war, bhale hi uske baad unhone 93000 soldiers ko free me chhod diya.
PVNR ki tareef hoti hai for 1991 liberalization, nuclear program restart. Jo unhone Vajpayee ji ko power dete time continue rakhne ko bola tha. Ab ye baat aur hai ki Congress wale unki half burned body chhod ka wapas aa gaye they.

But Lehru ke blunders, Kaveri engine ko Tejas se de-link karna are some of the blunders which Congress needs to own. Just like BJP need to own their blunders in Op Sindoor when they stopped it abruptly. They should have brought in Agni missiles and wiped out entire PAF fleet, as the Air Defences of Pak was completely destroyed. Not sure, how much this blunder will impact us in future. Else, we could have easily sent them in 1940's.
 

16 minutes ago, pkmmamks said:

Mat karo bhai. Aise hi baithe raho.

 

Wahan ladai hamare appreciation se nahi ladi jaati. It requires equipment 

No one is denying that, but saying hamne kuch nahi banaya is an insult to all the engineers and scientists. So many scientists and engineers were killed/kidnapped or jailed for fraudery reasons. Nambi Narayanan is a prime examples. No wonder apki economy 2014 me 2.1 trillion thi with 125 crore population, abhi it's around 4.xx with around 140 Crore. So there is a massive shift.v Funds badhenge as economy will increase, bina paise ke to ek babu pen bhi nahi uthaega.

We don't have skill issue anymore, we've a will issue. And the core problem is this ducking democracy. Putin aur CCP are prime examples of how Autocracy can develop a country. But yaha to vote chahiye coz our junta needs "freebies" else they'll vote out of power. 

[Lone Wolf]

Pakistanis are likely to get insane amount of Saudi money and equipment laundered by US.  This is throwback to 70's.

 

People shouldn't be surprised if they get hold of state of the art Patriot Missile defence systems and high tech radar systems.

Munir already was begging for it in USA.  You can add HIMARS MBRL systems as well.

 

India will have to significantly increase its defence budget from here on.

 

Edited September 19, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[Lone Wolf]

Saudis have more than a decent Air force...

BC 71 Eurofighter Typhoon in there as well.

 

Bhikhari Pakjabis are only there for meat grinding purpose and Nuclear Umbrella.

[singhvivek141]

10 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Pakistanis are likely to get insane amount of Saudi money and equipment laundered by US.  This is throwback to 70's.

 

People shouldn't be surprised if they get hold of state of the art Patriot Missile defence systems and high tech radar systems.

Munir already was begging for it in USA.  You can add HIMARS MBRL systems as well.

 

India will have to significantly increase its defence budget from here on.

 

I take it as a win.
Govt will be forced to pump in more money. Maybe even push HAL babus to do their job.
Russia is willing to provide source code and Su-57 manufacturing to India along with export facility. Use that experience in AMCA, new Su-57 will be based of AL-51 jet engine instead of AL-41.
AIP Submarines will also get a push along with Nuclear ones. Sharang Artillary guns are of subpar quality, maybe Bharat Forge will get a push to manufacture.

[Lone Wolf]

38 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

I take it as a win.
Govt will be forced to pump in more money. Maybe even push HAL babus to do their job.
Russia is willing to provide source code and Su-57 manufacturing to India along with export facility. Use that experience in AMCA, new Su-57 will be based of AL-51 jet engine instead of AL-41.
AIP Submarines will also get a push along with Nuclear ones. Sharang Artillary guns are of subpar quality, maybe Bharat Forge will get a push to manufacture.

Don't see it happening too soon unfortunately.  Submarine push is coming though... After a decade of deep sleep.  Navy has had enough of MoD and Babus and they had to make so much noise for it to happen.   Time toh lagega still as it is a long process.  Between 2029-2033 timeframe Pakistan will have qualitative edge over us in Submarine domain ( their 11 AIP powered Subs would be roaming in Arabian seas).  That cannot be stopped.   Beyond that we will be in better shape.   First Nuclear attack Submarine (SSN) hopefully will be commissioned in 2036.  

 

That's why we are forced to go for additional P8I aircraft from US and they are charging us premium amount for that.

 

Without Kaveri engine on Tejas everything else is a pipe dream.  I read yesterday that 75 KN thrust is about to be achieved... 2-3 billion dollars further and in 4-5 years we can make it a reality. 

IAF's issues are deep and there are no shortcuts.

 

Focus should be MBRL and missile inventory at least.   Control the controllabels.  Hypersonic Cruise Missiles need to be fastracked.

 

Brahmos NG, Astra Mk3 (Gandiva) are much needed for Air force.

Astra Mk1 still has some software related issues.   It is basically irrelevant in modern day BVR combat coz of its limited range but its improvement is necessary for MK2 and Mk3 Variants .  BVR capability is biggest issue facing IAF.

 

Jernails and Babus usually reject desi maal for Israeli and phoren equipment.  Baba Kalyani has been frustrated for long enough... Atmanirbhar Armenia is keeping our desi MIC on ventilator.

 

I read that More Korean K9 Howitzers are coming.. which is a shame actually.

Edited September 19, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[rangeelaraja]

7 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Don't see it happening too soon unfortunately.  Submarine push is coming though... After a decade of deep sleep.  Navy has had enough of MoD and Babus and they had to make so much noise for it to happen.   Time toh lagega still as it is a long process.  Between 2029-2033 timeframe Pakistan will have qualitative edge over us in Submarine domain ( their 11 AIP powered Subs would be roaming in Arabian seas).  That cannot be stopped.   Beyond that we will be in better shape.   First Nuclear attack Submarine (SSN) hopefully will be commissioned in 2036.  

 

That's why we are forced to go for additional P8I aircraft from US and they are charging us premium amount for that.

 

Without Kaveri engine on Tejas everything else is a pipe dream.  I read yesterday that 75 KN thrust is about to be achieved... 2-3 billion dollars further and in 4-5 years we can make it a reality. 

IAF's issues are deep and there are no shortcuts.

 

Focus should be MBRL and missile inventory at least.   Control the controllabels.  Hypersonic Cruise Missiles need to be fastracked.

 

Brahmos NG, Astra Mk3 (Gandiva) are much needed for Air force.

Astra Mk1 still has some software related issues.   It is basically irrelevant in modern day BVR combat coz of its limited range but its improvement is necessary for MK2 and Mk3 Variants .  BVR capability is biggest issue facing IAF.

 

Jernails and Babus usually reject desi maal for Israeli and phoren equipment.  Baba Kalyani has been frustrated for long enough... Atmanirbhar Armenia is keeping our desi MIC on ventilator.

 

I read that More Korean K9 Howitzers are coming.. which is a shame actually.

Akashteer is world class - better than anything China has - and it was proven in Op Sindoor.
 

Apparently this Israeli Laser tech costs

1-2 dollars if I read correctly in terms of operating cost per kill - and effective against both missiles and swarm drones.  
 

 

Edited September 19, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[Lone Wolf]

3 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

Akashteer is world class - better than anything China has - and it was proven in Op Sindoor. Apparently this lazer tech costs 1-2 dollars if I read correctly in terms of operating cost per kill - and effective against both missiles and dried. 
 

 

op Sindoor is a low intensity Skirmish.. only retard Pakjabi and Karachi Serfs call it a war ...While it is good that our homegrown systems performed well but we didn't face a high quality adversary.  Even Drones were insufficient, apart from 2-3  low grade Hatf missile launched that were knocked out by both S400 and Israeli MRSAM in Sirsa we didn't face enough heat at all.

 

China would launch hundred of missiles and rockets in a flash...and Idk how many drone swarms in its first strike.

Then 5th gen jets will come into play for SEAD DEAD ops. They have no shortage of Refuellers either.

 

Completely different kettle of fish.

 

We will always fight a defensive war with them thanks to geography.

[zen]

Pak mil mafia has found a perfect business model for the world in chaos - to provide security services to those with volatile borders. 
 

This is strategic growth, expanding business operations from supporting terrorists to now providing security services at international level. 
 

During a real war, Pak mil may even bump up its price citing the current remuneration is to just protect borders and not to fight wars. 
 

An obstacle is that they can’t fight for both sides but knowing the ingenuity of Pak Mil, it might even create a rogue division (on paper) that supports the other side too. Imagine Pak soilders pretending to fight for both sides with $$$ meter on. 
 

Khuda merbhan toh gadha …
 

 

Edited September 19, 2025 by zen

[Lone Wolf]

9 minutes ago, zen said:

Pak mil mafia has found a perfect business model for the world in chaos - to provide security services to those with volatile borders. 
 

This is strategic growth, expanding business operations from supporting terrorists to now providing security services at international level. 
 

During a real war, Pak mil may even bump up its price citing the current remuneration is to just protect borders and not to fight wars. 
 

An obstacle is that they can’t fight for both sides but knowing the ingenuity of Pak Mil, it might even create another rogue division (on paper) that supports the other side too. 
 

Khuda merbhan toh gadha …
 

 

I don't see Chinese selling their 5th gen j35 or J20's to these inbreds in short term at least.

Even if they do they would be deliberately downgraded like their SAM systems.

Could be wrong assessment too if G2 is tagging along on this one.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[pkmmamks]

2 hours ago, rangeelaraja said:

Criticizing unproved quality ( as was demonstrated during Sindoor ) is not coping it’s just stating facts. Just because they are 

“ ahead “ it doesn’t mean their wares can hold their own in a real battle. 
 

And proof of the matter is in actual business - apart from 3rd world countries who can’t afford the best western tech, which country trusts their tech ? Do you think it’s not been tested and rejected ? 
 

why do you think the Arab countries that are flush with money go for Rafales, Typhoons, F series planes and not Chinese “5th generation “ tech ?  
 

that answers everything. 

haan nahi chalega unka. hamara chalega

[pkmmamks]

2 hours ago, singhvivek141 said:

Purani govt. ke sahi kaamo ka appreciation bhi kiya jata hai.
IG ki tareef hoti hai for 1971 war, bhale hi uske baad unhone 93000 soldiers ko free me chhod diya.
PVNR ki tareef hoti hai for 1991 liberalization, nuclear program restart. Jo unhone Vajpayee ji ko power dete time continue rakhne ko bola tha. Ab ye baat aur hai ki Congress wale unki half burned body chhod ka wapas aa gaye they.

But Lehru ke blunders, Kaveri engine ko Tejas se de-link karna are some of the blunders which Congress needs to own. Just like BJP need to own their blunders in Op Sindoor when they stopped it abruptly. They should have brought in Agni missiles and wiped out entire PAF fleet, as the Air Defences of Pak was completely destroyed. Not sure, how much this blunder will impact us in future. Else, we could have easily sent them in 1940's.
 

No one is denying that, but saying hamne kuch nahi banaya is an insult to all the engineers and scientists. So many scientists and engineers were killed/kidnapped or jailed for fraudery reasons. Nambi Narayanan is a prime examples. No wonder apki economy 2014 me 2.1 trillion thi with 125 crore population, abhi it's around 4.xx with around 140 Crore. So there is a massive shift.v Funds badhenge as economy will increase, bina paise ke to ek babu pen bhi nahi uthaega.

We don't have skill issue anymore, we've a will issue. And the core problem is this ducking democracy. Putin aur CCP are prime examples of how Autocracy can develop a country. But yaha to vote chahiye coz our junta needs "freebies" else they'll vote out of power. 

70 saal unhone kuch nahi kiya. suna hai ?

Freebies to sab govt de rahe hain