Saudi and Pak sign NATO like mutual defense agreement

[rangeelaraja]

An aggression on one will be seen as an aggression against both. Don’t think Saudi will fight for Pak with its forces - but if this agreement is honored - Pak would get all of Saudi’s shiny hardly used latest toys and also access to Saudis limitless petro dollar money to buy equipments from the West and China. 

Implications for India ?

@IndianRenegade
@mishra @singhvivek141 @Lone Wolf

@coffee_rules @raki05

 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2025 by rangeelaraja

[IndianRenegade]

Another example of how actions of our other allies or partners are throwing problems for us. 
 

the Russian invasion of Ukraine made us perform a tight rope walk between west & causing a slowdown in what would have otherwise been a more rapid integration of the western trade & supply chain into India.

 

now Israel’s act of attacking Qatar has made gcc realize that the US will chose Israel over gcc any day. So they pay their henchman Pakistan, so now they have nuclear power backed by muscle power & Chinese weapons. It signals to the Americans we have others who can protect us if you fail us. (indirect Chinese protection through Pakistan)

 

No Saudi will die for Pakistan fighting India, but they are definitely going throw few billions at their new henchmen, nothing significant but it will be enough to keep us busy. Another tight rope we should walk carefully.

[rangeelaraja]

4 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

Another example of how actions of our other allies or partners are throwing problems for us. 
 

the Russian invasion of Ukraine made us perform a tight rope walk between west & causing a slowdown in what would have otherwise been a more rapid integration of the western trade & supply chain into India.

 

now Israel’s act of attacking Qatar has made gcc realize that the US will chose Israel over gcc any day. So they pay their henchman Pakistan, so now they have nuclear power backed by muscle power & Chinese weapons. It signals to the Americans we have others who can protect us if you fail us. (indirect Chinese protection through Pakistan)

 

No Saudi will die for Pakistan fighting India, but they are definitely going throw few billions at their new henchmen, nothing significant but it will be enough to keep us busy. Another tight rope we should walk carefully.

 

Just like no one can tell a sovereign nation with an independent foreign policy and that isn’t part of a block - whether or not to trade oil with Russia,  Saudi can also claim to have relationship with Pak independent of our great ties with them. 
 

They are capable of taking care of all of Paks arm purchases and ensuring that Pak will remain afloat in case of the next war - and wars are expensive. 
 

Pak has been very opportunistic and agile in its foreign policy of late - this time using the Israeli attack on Qatar to forge a defense pact with Saudi Arabia.

India really needs to have more creative and clever foreign policy in this environment if we don’t plan to beat Pak to pulp.

[Lone Wolf]

Saudis are biggest US biatch...  They must be giggling inside out after what happened with Qatar.  Qatar's influence within the Western circles and media has sorta surpassed even Saudis.

 

No need to worry about these things.  US Saudi de facto own Pak force and provide billions to maintain its nuclear assets. 

 

Actual stuff we need to be worried about is this 

 

Edited September 18, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[IndianRenegade]

1 minute ago, Lone Wolf said:

Saudis are biggest US biatch...  They must be giggling inside out after what happened with Qatar.  Qatar's influence within the Western circles and media has sorta surpassed even Saudis.

 

No need to worry about these things.

Actual stuff we need to be worried about is this 

 

wait till the saudi's give P@kis the $$$ needed to buy a few of these. for all their J10c they only have a 20 of them & even thats on loan, saudi's can easily bank role Pakistani 5th gen aspirations by funding a few squadrans. 

 

Thats where we must work the diplomatic lines with the saudi's to ensure it doesn't happen. 

[rangeelaraja]

6 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Saudis are biggest US biatch...  They must be giggling inside out after what happened with Qatar.  Qatar's influence within the Western circles and media has sorta surpassed even Saudis.

 

No need to worry about these things.  US Saudi de facto own Pak force and provide billions to maintain its nuclear assets. 

 

Actual stuff we need to be worried about is this 

 

 

None of what China has is really combat tested against a credible adversary. So everything that they show needs to be taken with a bucketful of salt. 
 

We cannot match them for numbers presently because we neither have that kind of budget nor manufacturing scale and capacity. 

 

It is going to be about superior training and tactics. 
 

Chinese had the biggest advantage to produce the most potent vaccines for COVID - given that it originated in Wuhan - yet it was Indian vaccines that were sought world over for effectiveness -  not Chinese. Many of our firms built them indigenously. 
 

I see Chinese weapons technology with the same scepticism unless they are combat proven.  

 

[singhvivek141]

1 hour ago, rangeelaraja said:

An aggression on one will be seen as an aggression against both. Don’t think Saudi will fight for Pak with its forces - but if this agreement is honored - Pak would get all of Saudi’s shiny hardly used latest toys and also access to Saudis limitless petro dollar money to buy equipments from the West and China. 

Implications for India ?

@IndianRenegade
@mishra @singhvivek141 @Lone Wolf

@coffee_rules @raki05

 

 

 

It is expected from a leech like Pakistan. To use the religion card to defame Islam and hide their atrocities/hatred against non Islamists. Also, its weird that Pak didnt do this tieup with Turkey but rather with Saudi.

 

Anyway, we neednt panic, our internal focus should be to deepen our military, space and economic power projection. While external focus should be on strengthening the relations wherever possible.

 

India-Russia ties are stronger, relations with China is improving at a diplomatic level, we have our strong ties with Israel.

 

Use this to expand our influence, be polite on a diplomatic level, be aggressive militarily, be ruthless in Information Warfare.

[singhvivek141]

10 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

wait till the saudi's give P@kis the $$$ needed to buy a few of these. for all their J10c they only have a 20 of them & even thats on loan, saudi's can easily bank role Pakistani 5th gen aspirations by funding a few squadrans. 

 

Thats where we must work the diplomatic lines with the saudi's to ensure it doesn't happen. 

Saudi will give some loans here and there just to keep their sanctity as the leader of Islamic World. But on a global scale, even they cant take any unanimous decisions without approval from US.

 

Saudi is trying hard to come out of US influence, but isnt there yet. Even Turkiye for all its ambitions are just a pet of US.

[singhvivek141]

19 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Actual stuff we need to be worried about is this 

 

 

We will be there by 2040-2045. China was always ahead of us by 20-25 years atleast....courtesy of our joker politicians.

 

We started late, and we have catching up to do. Expand our strengths like AD & Missile Tech...while parallely continue working on acquiring jets, naval power & space.

[Rajiv]

Its all for this

 

 

[Lone Wolf]

42 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

 

None of what China has is really combat tested against a credible adversary. So everything that they show needs to be taken with a bucketful of salt. 
 

We cannot match them for numbers presently because we neither have that kind of budget nor manufacturing scale and capacity. 

 

It is going to be about superior training and tactics. 
 

Chinese had the biggest advantage to produce the most potent vaccines for COVID - given that it originated in Wuhan - yet it was Indian vaccines that were sought world over for effectiveness -  not Chinese. Many of our firms built them indigenously. 
 

I see Chinese weapons technology with the same scepticism unless they are combat proven.  

 

As they say Quantity has its own Quality.   Western Experts tend to rate J20 better than likes Su57 with superior avionics and specs.

Double engine J20 is a super massive threat regardless.  

Upar se they are integrated with their vast AWACs fleet

Their Multiple KJ 500 AWACs along LAC have already made our Limited fighter aircrafts redundant along LAC

 

 

 

 

Tejas to tin ka dabba hai as of now that IAF itself doesn't rates it and calls it 3rd gen barely 

But we all want it because we can integrate our missile and weapon systems with it.

 

Rafale F4 also has its question marks around it.  F5 is supposed to be under development 

 

Only American fighter jets and Eurofighter Typhoon are truly in its own class.

[Lone Wolf]

39 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

 

We will be there by 2040-2045. China was always ahead of us by 20-25 years atleast....courtesy of our joker politicians.

 

We started late, and we have catching up to do. Expand our strengths like AD & Missile Tech...while parallely continue working on acquiring jets, naval power & space.

Between 2000-2013 including Vajpaye and UPA government's we inducted 240+ MKI aircrafts.

We were actually working towards expanding the fleet.  These are gun numbers for that era alone for a small economy.

 

15 years since new naval orders.  All being delivered now are orders placed before that timeframe.

 

Gap has absolutely widened beyond our imagination in last 10 years.

 

2040 mai you will see their multiple nuclear powered submarines docking in Myanmar and roaming in IOR.

 

So far we are lucky thanks to our geography.

 

Edited September 18, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[IndianRenegade]

41 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Saudi will give some loans here and there just to keep their sanctity as the leader of Islamic World. But on a global scale, even they cant take any unanimous decisions without approval from US.

 

Saudi is trying hard to come out of US influence, but isnt there yet. Even Turkiye for all its ambitions are just a pet of US.

May be, but honestly Pakistan has had some diplomatic wins over India in the past few months. They used crypto & lobbying to get into trumps favor, used phalgam attack to repress internal issues & unify the country behind military, now they have used the Israel attack on qatar to get into a defense pact with Saudis

 

We can't be reactive & assuming everything will be like in the past, the Saudis are loosing significant money because we are buying most of our oil from Russia. 

[singhvivek141]

48 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Between 2000-2013 including Vajpaye and UPA government's we inducted 240+ MKI aircrafts.

We were actually working towards expanding the fleet.  These are gun numbers for that era alone for a small economy.

 

15 years since new naval orders.  All being delivered now are orders placed before that timeframe.

 

Gap has absolutely widened beyond our imagination in last 10 years.

 

2040 mai you will see their multiple nuclear powered submarines docking in Myanmar and roaming in IOR.

 

So far we are lucky thanks to our geography.

 

MKI deal was signed in 1998/99 itself, the delivery of the aircrafts took few years and I think HAL started creating them from 2004/05 (wc to be corrected).
Not sure why we pivoted from Russia military equipments to Western ones. Russia despite having manufacturing issues atleast is honest about the deliveries. Brahmos and Rudram 3 missiles can't be used on Tejas or Rafale due to their sheer size, we have to use it on MKI only and in future (hopefully) AMCA or Su57.

Naval side, if I'm correct...we produced drones from US, Rafale and few new deals for the procurement of Destroyers, Submarines and Corvettes are in place already. The order backlog is heavy. A third aircraft carrier talks are also going which will replace Vikramaditya. With the arrival of key private players like Tata and Mahindra in Defence, we might see a surge. There are some projects on going to induct more Nuclear and AIP Submarines.

China took off, as their economy just exploded post 2010s....we may get to that level in 2030s. Plus, their political structure also plays a key role...both Putin and Xi are in power from quite long and this helps in envisioning their plans, unlike us, where one hard decision can topple the govt and bring in someone new who will thwart all the projects.

We can't compete with China now, just like Russia can't with US. Our strategy has to be to stay at atleast 60-70% of their level. Cleanup the internal mess first, specially the weaklinks.

Edited September 18, 2025 by singhvivek141

[Lone Wolf]

19 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

May be, but honestly Pakistan has had some diplomatic wins over India in the past few months. They used crypto & lobbying to get into trumps favor, used phalgam attack to repress internal issues & unify the country behind military, now they have used the Israel attack on qatar to get into a defense pact with Saudis

 

We can't be reactive & assuming everything will be like in the past, the Saudis are loosing significant money because we are buying most of our oil from Russia. 

Pakistan was always closer than us to the Arab world for obvious reasons.

Saudis have literally funded and continue to fund their atomic program...and even for maintenance purposes.  I won't call the defence pact a diplomatic L,  now the pact is out in the open though.

 

Also Our closeness with Israel stops us from getting too close to Iran (they are our contingency plan if things go south fast)

 

Pakistan is always ready to sell itself to highest bidder which means they will always have more diplomatic support of other countries than us.

 

 

[singhvivek141]

26 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said:

May be, but honestly Pakistan has had some diplomatic wins over India in the past few months. They used crypto & lobbying to get into trumps favor, used phalgam attack to repress internal issues & unify the country behind military, now they have used the Israel attack on qatar to get into a defense pact with Saudis

 

We can't be reactive & assuming everything will be like in the past, the Saudis are loosing significant money because we are buying most of our oil from Russia. 

It's easy for Pak to shift the momentum, coz there is an autonomy which isn't answerable to the public.
No one will dare the question Failed Marshal, even if he is found forking a pig in the streets. 

We cant do that, opposition, media and even the common public will tear them apart. Hence, every decision is taken slowly with utmost care, focus is on not to go wrong instead of going slow. Call it a cultural thing as well, we're very quick to criticize but rarely appreciate.

Saudi's are losing money, but they don't even have capacity to produce more oil if we stop buying from Russia. The amount of oil refining which India is doing at present is higher than Saudi's. So their capping on the oil refinement itself is a bottleneck. Though, I understand, it's again not their decision entirely. Trump wants to push US oil in the market.

[rangeelaraja]

I think Saudi will use Pakistani as cannon fodder against Yemen and also expect them to fight Israel, if they get struck like Qatar.

 

In return Pak gets a blank check to procure arms, fuel from Turkey, China..etc to wage a long war with India. Their biggest weaknesses which is economy and fuel both get taken care of. 
 

So if our military planners had ever planned to deliver a short intense but crippling blow in a short war ( because Pak lacks resources to wage a long war ) …. This option is no longer on the table for India and it is a matter of deep concern. 
 

Saudis might have also done it to elbow India which directed the quota of Saudi oil imports to Russia. 

[Lone Wolf]

30 minutes ago, singhvivek141 said:

Rafale and few new deals for the procurement of Destroyers, Submarines and Corvettes are in place already

There no new contracts signed for conventional submarines yet.. last one  first Scorpene submarine contract was  inked in October 2005.

Project 75I isn't approved since 2 decades now itna delay hai that Submarine fleet is on the verge of being old and redundant.

Last I heard German design is still in chai biscuit phase.  IDRW reported that contract won't be signed until next year 

 

MDL production line is idle for so many years... Just like Nashik Facility of Sukhois MKi since 2017.  Whoever made that call to stop it's production deserves Russian Gulag treatment.  Now HAL saying restarting it would take time.

 

Not a single AIP powered sub

DRDO not able to make its own AIP fuel cell.

 

Frigates, Corvettes, Destroyer Mcvms no new orders in last 10 years as well.

 

Timeline push karte karte 2035 kar di hai.. earlier was 2027

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newindianexpress.com/amp/story/nation/2025/Jul/07/17-warships-nine-submarines-await-approval

 

 

Rafale M will provide some much needed firepower to our Aircraft carriers when it comes otherwise Aircraft hai hi kaha hai?

 

 

You are taking about 60-70% but Bhai 30% will be enough for deterrence abhi 10% bhi nahi hai 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2025 by Lone Wolf

[Lone Wolf]

7 minutes ago, rangeelaraja said:

In return Pak gets a blank check to procure arms, fuel from Turkey, China..etc to wage a long war with India. Their biggest weaknesses which is economy and fuel both get taken care of. 
 

So if our military planners had ever planned to deliver a short intense but crippling blow in a short war ( because Pak lacks resources to wage a long war ) …. This option is no longer on the table for India and it is a matter of deep concern

Interesting thought this sudden shift would mean US is pulling the strings from behind.

 

our economy can only be slowed through these tactics.

Late 2020's to early 2030's.. anything can happen.

[rangeelaraja]

17 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

Interesting thought this sudden shift would mean US is pulling the strings from behind.

 

our economy can only be slowed through these tactics.

Late 2020's to early 2030's.. anything can happen.

 

 

Saudis care about only 2 things - 1) Energy  business 2) Security 

 

Pakistan wants to be a provider of # 2.  It will only be used like the pigs that Pakistani are. They will be bitch slapped by Israelis if they try to act to brave.

 

India has been trying to bring in Saudi investments in our energy sector so that once the economies are deeply intertwined -- it will just dump Pak and their fake promises of security.

 

The RIL ARAMCO deal got called off a few years back  -- https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/reliance-aramco-call-off-15-bln-deal-amid-valuation-differences-sources-say-2021-11-25/

 

But we need massive investments from Saudi and go back to purchasing their oil in huge quantities one the Ukraine conflict ends.

 

Do you think Pak will even think about attacking the RIL refinery in Jamnagar if Saudi ARAMCO had a 20 % stake in it ? 

Saudis would make them beg if they dared to do it. 

 

So we need to "give something " to Saudi.   Thats the only way "friendship" is maintained in global geopolitics - everything is transactional -- EVERYTHING.

 

Unlike Pak which is a shameless state that rents its land and army for pay per use,  India can create leverage by business interdependencies - there is no other way out. 

 

Edited September 18, 2025 by rangeelaraja