vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 2 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: This isn't a red herring fallacy. red herring is defined as: The issue at hand & accusation is Uday/Congress usage of nomenclature of a religious group in a disparaging way is restricted to hinduism, because his intention is to divide. Whether he applies the such criticism beyond Hindu religion is directly related to the claim. that isn't the argument, but he will never use Islamic nomenclature to ever condemn Islamic extremism it will always be neutral. You will almost never see him or side say Jihadism should be eradicated, Nikah halala must be eradicated, rather they will make the claim the ills of other religions have nothing to do with that religion, "terror has no religion" etc. But they will use Hindu nomenclature without any issues & even in face of court orders & blowback. That is not Secularism they claim to hold dear, it is the exact same divisive politics they accuse BJP of. REdherring it is because as soon as discussion is about Hinduism suddenly why not Muslim which iis not the point of discussion here. We have not agreed on whether he is actually talking about Hinduism or just talking about BJP's use of this word to polarize people. basically we are not even talking about religion here. Same answer above for your second point. If he views it as rebranding of Hindutva that is not insulting Hinduism. It is not just about Stalin here. They have extended the criticism beyond stalin. to othe rMLAs to Vijay and to Tamil Hindus. They are all branded as anti-hindus now. Imagine a random guy from north east making these comments about Tamil hindus. Tamilians have everything to resist this propaganda.
vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 3 minutes ago, diga said: This isn't random...it's exactly mirroring the ways of uthayanithi where one targets only one group Which group that is?
IndianRenegade Posted May 13 Posted May 13 15 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: What udhayanidhi stalin did can be called rage-baiting at best. I don't believe 1% his goal here is to "eradicate hindus" . .....This staged outrage irks me more than Udyanidhis rage bait. I never made the argument that he actually wants to eradicate hinduism or has the ability to. My argument was his intention behind the entire Sanathana Dharama eradication is to a enrange hindu right wing & solidify support of religious minorities, play the same politics he accuses the other of doing. You can chose to call it rage bait, staged outrage or anything, but none of it would have happened if he didn't use the term linked to the religion.
diga Posted May 13 Posted May 13 2 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: I never made the argument that he actually wants to eradicate hinduism or has the ability to. My argument was his intention behind the entire Sanathana Dharama eradication is to a enrange hindu right wing & solidify support of religious minorities, play the same politics he accuses the other of doing. You can chose to call it rage bait, staged outrage or anything, but none of it would have happened if he didn't use the term linked to the religion. Oh ...and where was it uttered initially? An event organised by DMK calling itself sanatana eradication conference
IndianRenegade Posted May 13 Posted May 13 2 minutes ago, diga said: Oh ...and where was it uttered initially? An event organised by DMK calling itself sanatana eradication conference They have been doing it better part of the century, Hinduism has hardly been eradicated in TN. But they have normalised disparaging Hinduism, that is the point.
diga Posted May 13 Posted May 13 3 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: They have been doing it better part of the century, Hinduism has hardly been eradicated in TN. But they have normalised disparaging Hinduism, that is the point. No doubt, anti-Hindu rhetoric has clearly become normalized within DMK circles, but their systematic erasure of major Brahmin philosophers like Ramanujacharya is particularly disheartening
IndianRenegade Posted May 13 Posted May 13 (edited) 2 hours ago, vvvslaxman said: REdherring it is because as soon as discussion is about Hinduism suddenly why not Muslim which iis not the point of discussion here. We have not agreed on whether he is actually talking about Hinduism or just talking about BJP's use of this word to polarize people. basically we are not even talking about religion here. red hearring is only if diverts it from the issue at hand. I clearly stated whether you agree or not if there is factual basis that sanathan == hinduism is irrelevant. It is totally irrelevant to the fact why there is backlash. What can't be disputted even by you is Sanathan is Hindu nomenclature. The point made was using religious nomenclature in attacks is exclusively restricted to Hindus by the left. So, it logically follows you test the claim, by comparing it to near peers. You will never see prominent politician of the stature Udyanidhi in the left claim we will exterminate Jhiadism, wahabism - the extremist ideology killing thousands of Indians, & the reason for majority of wars India has fought since becoming a free country, in spite of a common Indian tamil muslim vowing those don't represent Islam. The left will always bend over backwards user generic terms like terrorism, claim it nothing to do with religion, but will have no qualms using religious nomenclature to when it pertains to Hinduism even if you grant BJP has misused the term Sanathan. Edited May 13 by IndianRenegade G_B_ and diga 1 1
coffee_rules Posted May 13 Author Posted May 13 (edited) 3 hours ago, vvvslaxman said: Veeramani is your example? . Pesident of DK .Now 92 year old? . That is what he lives on. And you are worried about 92 year old mobilizing a feeble bunch of DK supporters to eradicate Hinduism? DK has been in existence for decades with same rhetoric. Come on dude :) Sanatani is and will always be viewed as a dog whistle for BJP in TN. You can dance around this as much as you want. As i said i don't support Udayanithi. But his point about sanatani is definitely not hindus. You know it. His own family follows HIndu traditions. So he wants to eradicate them? That is a stretch. let us take a step back and pause these name calling and reduce the argument to a binary. You claim you’re not a EVRist, DK, DMK activist, Fine, I respect that. Let us not get into political argument. But you keep insisting that Santathanis are not Hindus and it is a propaganda word introduced by BJP. That is where you are getting political. So keep politics out of the argument and don’t keep insisting that BJP is the bogeyman for Tamil Nadu Indu. I don’t care about your knowledge of Sanathana or your anecdotal evidence of social media, monitoring, relatives, etc. let’s see the facts The word Sanathana cannot be seen in Vedic scriptures because it was 5000 years ago when it was only codified set of duties and it was called Dharma. We can’t even call Dharma as religion in the Vedic context.. The word, Sanathana may have been introduced more than 2000 years later in the scriptures Mahabharat, Gita and Puranas more recently like 2500 years old. Sanathana Dharma is used in many religious discourses by pandits, kathavachaks, harikathas and right wing intellectuals and writers. There are texts in Sangam literature and by literature works of Subramanya Bharathi in Tamil at the beginning of the 20th century. So it is not that. Tamilians do not know of the significance of the word sanathana dharma. Just because you were not brought up with that religious background or culture doesn’t mean others did not in TN. The DK activists and politicians were spewing their anti-Hindu rhetoric, never used the word Sanathana until recently. This is done politically to re-energize the voter base of DK party, using the mouthpieces of Christian and mullah leaders. You said Supreme Court and High Court comments on sanathama being the same as Hinduism was because of PIL from BJP guys, of course, it will be, because courts don’t do suo moto cases on their own without any serious constitution or political pressures. Not everything is BJP propaganda. There are scriptural references to Sanathana Dharma and it is revered by some people, insisting on disparaging the word for any ills of Hinduism, like caste discrimination is wrong and amounts to hate speech causing disharmony in the society (there are IPC codes for this). So if you are ideally secular or atheist and respect all religions, don’t use the word. Sanathani to disparage a religion our name, calling a set of people who believe in that word in religious context. Edited May 13 by coffee_rules diga 1
vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 Just now, coffee_rules said: let us take a step back and pause these name calling and reduce the argument to a binary. You claim you’re not a EVRist, DK, DMK activist, Fine, I respect that. Let us not get into political argument. But you keep insisting that Santathanis are not Hindus and it is a propaganda word introduced by BJP. That is where you are getting political. So keep politics out of the argument and don’t keep insisting that BJP is the bogeyman for Tamil Nadu Indu. I don’t care about your knowledge of Sanathana or your anecdotal evidence of social media, monitoring, relatives, etc. let’s see the facts The word Sanathana cannot be seen in Vedic scriptures because it was 5000 years ago when it was only codified set of duties and it was called Dharma. He can’t even call Dharma as religion in the Vedic context.. The word, Sanathana is introduced more than 2000 years later in the scriptures Mahabharat, Gita and Puranas recent 2500 years old. Sanathana Dharma is used in many after religious discourses by pandits, kathavachaks, harikathas and right wing intellectuals and writers. There are texts in Sangam literature and by literature works of Subramanya Bharathi in Tamil at the beginning of the 20th century. So it is not that. Tamilians do not know of the significance of the word sanathana dharma. Just because you were not brought up with that religious background or culture doesn’t mean others did not in TN. The DK activists and politicians were spewing their anti-Hindu rhetoric, never use the word Sanathana until recently. This is Dunne politically to re-energize the voter base off DK party, using the mouthpieces of Christian and mullah leaders. You said Supreme Court and High Court comments on sanathama being the same as Hinduism was because of PIL from BJP guys, of course, it will be, because courts don’t do suo moto cases on their own without any serious constitution or political pressures. Not everything is BJP propaganda. If the result scriptural reference to Sanathana Dharma and it is revered buy some people, insisting on disparaging the word for any ills of Hinduism, like caste discrimination is wrong and amounts to hate speech causing disharmony in the society (there are IPC codes for this). So if you are ideally secular or atheist and respect, all religions, don’t use the word. Sanathani to disparage a religion. What is the purpose of reviving something that may have been followed centuries back. What is the necessity to rebrand HIndus as sanatanis. WHy should someone who never heard of this should follow the same. There are still debates about how discrimination is integrated with that old archaic system. https://madrascourier.com/opinion/the-eternal-discrimination-of-sanatana-dharma/ What is the need of reviving it after centuries instead of sticking to current setup. What is the end goal here? Why should someone force others to follow what they do? Why should there be imposition of one's own belief system on to others. If someone doesn't know what it is , why should anyone force them to know? How does it help them? Only answer i can think of is they create an US vs them enviornment with this. Tamilians are bound by language more than religion. Nobody cares what the man next to him practices. That should be the way. HOw can they bring millions of Hindus in a country that has so many langauge,s dialects, tradition, culuture under one big umbrella. It is mind bogglingly stupid.
coffee_rules Posted May 13 Author Posted May 13 22 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: What is the purpose of reviving something that may have been followed centuries back. What is the necessity to rebrand HIndus as sanatanis. WHy should someone who never heard of this should follow the same. There are still debates about how discrimination is integrated with that old archaic system. https://madrascourier.com/opinion/the-eternal-discrimination-of-sanatana-dharma/ What is the need of reviving it after centuries instead of sticking to current setup. What is the end goal here? Why should someone force others to follow what they do? Why should there be imposition of one's own belief system on to others. If someone doesn't know what it is , why should anyone force them to know? How does it help them? Only answer i can think of is they create an US vs them enviornment with this. Tamilians are bound by language more than religion. Nobody cares what the man next to him practices. That should be the way. HOw can they bring millions of Hindus in a country that has so many langauge,s dialects, tradition, culuture under one big umbrella. It is mind bogglingly stupid. it is not rebranding, the word sanatana was always there in the scriptures. If it is there in the scriptures and some people believe in the sanctity of the word, don’t try to abuse it to mean something totally different. All we are saying is you can call it eradicating jaati varna system or Manu Dharma, manuvaad , just not the sacred word. How hard is it not to understand? There are so many ills in other religions and for example, do we run a campaign funded by the government called eradicating whatever is considered sacred in that religion? It is as simple as that. There is no re-branding or any political motives behind this outage.
vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 3 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: it is not rebranding, the word sanatana was always there in the scriptures. If it is there in the scriptures and some people believe in the sanctity of the word, don’t try to abuse it to mean something totally different. All we are saying is you can call it eradicating jaati varna system or Manu Dharma, manuvaad , just not the sacred word. How hard is it not to understand? There are so many ills in other religions and for example, do we run a campaign funded by the government called eradicating whatever is considered sacred in that religion? It is as simple as that. There is no re-branding or any political motives behind this outage. That is not the ourage is about though. Outrage has turned into "Udayanithi wants to eradicate Hindu religion. All the Hindu MLA were sitting idly and watching. Vijay was not responding to it. How can Hindus elect a christian" from well known Bots. DIdn't land as well as they hoped.
vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 Any way time out. I am done talking about it. Peace out. coffee_rules 1
IndianRenegade Posted May 13 Posted May 13 (edited) 1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said: What is the purpose of reviving something that may have been followed centuries back. What is the necessity to rebrand HIndus as sanatanis. WHy should someone who never heard of this should follow the same. There are still debates about how discrimination is integrated with that old archaic system. https://madrascourier.com/opinion/the-eternal-discrimination-of-sanatana-dharma/ What is the need of reviving it after centuries instead of sticking to current setup. What is the end goal here? Why should someone force others to follow what they do? Why should there be imposition of one's own belief system on to others. If someone doesn't know what it is , why should anyone force them to know? How does it help them? Only answer i can think of is they create an US vs them enviornment with this. Tamilians are bound by language more than religion. Nobody cares what the man next to him practices. That should be the way. HOw can they bring millions of Hindus in a country that has so many langauge,s dialects, tradition, culuture under one big umbrella. It is mind bogglingly stupid. The funniest thing about you quoting the article is, it makes no qualms about the fact it considers Santhana Dharma as Hindu Philosophy, something you have been arguing againt: Quote Santhana Dharma is hailed by patrons, adherents, and evangelists of the Hindu faith as the inviolable product of an illustrious nation. It is extolled as an all-encompassing, insuperable, and sacrosanct set of doctrines whose origins are obscure and ambiguous. ....... The etymology of the word Santana Dharma, especially what constitutes ‘eternal,’ is open to interpretation. But unambiguously, in the context of Hinduism, it includes a belief in the soul and rebirth, the caste system and the doctrine of purity.... As atheist, I am all for criticizing the problems in Hindu religious texts, Hindu society, but I am not naive to belive a faith system that has existed for thousands of years can be wished away. I am all for the reforms & open discussion, none of which you can achieve by the Indian leftist mentality that deems Hindu religious texts, practices etc. are all fair game but abharmic faiths are beyond reproach. Edited May 13 by IndianRenegade coffee_rules 1
vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 6 minutes ago, IndianRenegade said: The funniest thing about you quoting the article is, it makes no qualms about the fact it considers Santhana Dharma as Hindu Philosophy, something you have been arguing againt: As atheist, I am all for criticizing the problems in Hindu religious texts, Hindu society, but I am not naive to belive a faith system that has existed for thousands of years can be wished away. I am all for the reforms & open discussion, none of which you can achieve by the Indian leftist mentality that deems Hindu religious texts, practices etc. are all fair game but abharmic faiths are beyond reproach. There is no one common text for millions of hindus , thousands of variations. You could reform religion silently. Don't have to advertise it and ask everyone to follow it. You This is not constitution where every citizen has to abide by it. People can choose to forego it. And that should be respected. But i am not seeing that from hardliners. When you talk in binary like DUbaiya "EIther with us or against us" that will be met with resistance. I am done with this topic as it is purely based on our own interpretations.
coffee_rules Posted May 13 Author Posted May 13 (edited) 45 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: That is not the ourage is about though. Outrage has turned into "Udayanithi wants to eradicate Hindu religion. All the Hindu MLA were sitting idly and watching. Vijay was not responding to it. How can Hindus elect a christian" from well known Bots. DIdn't land as well as they hoped. Sums up the debate on what the outrage is about. All TV debates are about. Why is he insulting Hindu sentiments? Are you telling me what I should be feeling bad about my beliefs and what I should be not? Edited May 13 by coffee_rules
vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 17 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Sums up the debate on what the outrage is about. All TV debates are about. Why is he insulting Hindu sentiments? Are you telling me what I should be feeling bad about my beliefs and what I should be not? Your BJP MLA is sitting there. WHy didn't he clarify what he meant by "eradicating sanatanam". It is a rage bait as a closing remark. "Makkalai pirikkum sanadanam ozhikka padav vendum" - "Sanatanam that divides people should be eradicated". He belives it divides people. He apparently. treats it as a seperate entity not as HInduism.
coffee_rules Posted May 13 Author Posted May 13 1 hour ago, vvvslaxman said: There is no one common text for millions of hindus , thousands of variations. You could reform religion silently. Don't have to advertise it and ask everyone to follow it. You This is not constitution where every citizen has to abide by it. People can choose to forego it. And that should be respected. But i am not seeing that from hardliners. When you talk in binary like DUbaiya "EIther with us or against us" that will be met with resistance. I am done with this topic as it is purely based on our own interpretations. Yes, there is no single text but our constitution protects any kind of belief or deity worship and one should not disrespect their beliefs. It was the case, even with Sabarimala t00. The Madhura, High Court and Madras High Court have ruled that disrespecting. Sanath means disrespecting Hinduism and it is hate speech from Chhota Stalin. You cannot say that Sanathhana he’s not followed in Tamil Nadu and One can say anything about it. No sir, not as for the courts.
coffee_rules Posted May 13 Author Posted May 13 12 minutes ago, vvvslaxman said: Your BJP MLA is sitting there. WHy didn't he clarify what he meant by "eradicating sanatanam". It is a rage bait as a closing remark. "Makkalai pirikkum sanadanam ozhikka padav vendum" - "Sanatanam that divides people should be eradicated". He belives it divides people. He apparently. treats it as a seperate entity not as HInduism. If he has the balls to say it outside the assembly, let him do it he’ll be faced with the bunch of FIRS and PILs. Hence the coward said it in the assembly.
vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 5 minutes ago, coffee_rules said: Yes, there is no single text but our constitution protects any kind of belief or deity worship and one should not disrespect their beliefs. It was the case, even with Sabarimala t00. The Madhura, High Court and Madras High Court have ruled that disrespecting. Sanath means disrespecting Hinduism and it is hate speech from Chhota Stalin. You cannot say that Sanathhana he’s not followed in Tamil Nadu and One can say anything about it. No sir, not as for the courts. Seeman has talked far far worse than this though :) This looks like an attempt to get a rise out of BJP supporters. Looks he is successful. It is not a remark with any kind of conviction. He left it as a troll comment when i listen to it in Tamil.
vvvslaxman Posted May 13 Posted May 13 Just now, coffee_rules said: If he has the balls to say it outside the assembly, let him do it he’ll be faced with the bunch of FIRS and PILs. Hence the coward said it in the assembly. yes. Precisely why he said that.
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