More than a third of India below poverty line now

[Lurker]

I think you are restricting yourself to the urban poor when you talk of the housing situation. Even there, it is mostly because of the growth of the economy and a phenomenal rise in Indian salaries. This, combined with a powerful and politically entrenched land mafia has led to this situation. For example, in Hyderabad thousands of acres of govt land were handed over to the mafia in recent years, which was partially exposed in the Satyam scandal.

I think you are making the same mistake as always Seedhi, you are blaming Government for the ills of the nation. Not saying it does not deserve its share but entire blame game? Take land mafia for example, some of the richest Indian these days are these Real Estate wallahs. Someone like a DLF who was ranked by Fortune and Forbes to be the richest Real estate developer in the world in 2008/09. Really? You have got to be freaking kidding me!! How many world statured buildings have been erected by DLFs?? The company(and those like it) have made Gurgaon a cement cess pool where people buy 1.5 crore flat and have no roads to ply. It is amazing how real estate developers have absolutely no civic duties in India, in abroad they tend to invest atleast a fraction in the community utilities.

The other important aspect is the migration of rural poor into cities. Decades of neglect of the rural population and stagnation of agricultural sector has now manifested itself in range of problem - from farmer suicides to urban congestion.

Neglect from whom?? Which Indian have you met who ever lived in a village(forget working in fields)?? You might have met some in college, if that. And even then there is a good chance that such folks would be looked down upon as rustic, pind wallah or dehaati. Why would anyone want to live in village where a) Naxals rule. b) Basic ammenities like electricity and education are missing. c) Rising prices are pushing them to bankrupcy d) Their own countrymen dont give a damn???

As far as NRIs - lets be honest - the govt earns over $50 billion of forex from remittances. I dont see proof of any major inflationary impact in housing solely due to NRIs, there might a small contribution. The govt can always step in and regulate property purchase by NRIs. But the fact is that the NRIs do bring in substantial capital which helps the govt out fiscally.

Those days are long gone boss. One positive trend that I see these days in India is the top rung are not making a bee-line for US Counsellate. They have enough, and often better oppertunity, in India. The lot that is coming out is the 2nd tier, and sometimes 3rd tier. Frankly this development encourages me lot more than the whole NRI-sends-remittance-saga. xxx

[jusarrived]

i find tht utterly disgusting... im an average middle class guy.. when i goto India.. i find very sad and guilty seeing the poor people trying to meet their ends.. how can this guy built a house for 2 Billion $ and live alongside the slums.. doesnt he feel bad for the unfortunate people who r living in his neighbourhood?

may be Ambanis feels sad & guilty too ? funny how conveniently you call yourself "avg middle class " here . you are making probably 200$/hr , but still cant help .why ? I guess , u think you still dont make enough money , may be for a bigger house , better car etc etc ? or some other excuse ? The $2b house is disgusting , cos you cant afford it. not blaming you alone here , cos this very typical of us "avg middle class " , pity that most of us completely ignore our social responsibilities & still have the audacity to point fingers at others . As for the NRI's , talk about double standards. The jobs or revenues for govt , generated by Ambanis dont count but your remittances are as good as charity ? who are we trying fool here ,we all know why money is sent back to india . btw the article means nothing , any one whos lived in India & has seen changes in past few years would know theres realistic hope .The ones who are used to easy lives of the west , wont see it though .

[Clarke]

Since you are concentrating on NRI component only, can you show me what they have done to decrease the poverty rate?? If anything it is the Planning Commission that deserves full praises for getting the numbers down, how so miniscal it might be.

My focus on NRIs was rebutting any suggestions blaming them for our issues. Right from the beginning, i mentioned padosi mulk and balance of payments and not overall socio-economic stature when talking of NRIs. The fact remains, in any economy, your growth is dependent on getting investments, which is decided by ur credit worthiness, which depends on your reserves. That and the import bills i have already talked of should be clear how an NRI influences the overall economy and the common man in a positive manner.

Says who???

Check the numbers on poverty rate from independence till now; i thought u knew better. Anyways, here's the sarkari data : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BPL_Data_GOI.png

In 10 years I have seen the price of housing skrocket 3-4 times. You go to any urban center - Mumbai, Hyderabad, Chennai, Gurgaon, Delhi, Noida etc et - and every new apartment that is being built has an overwhemling NRI occupancy. The people who actually live in Chennai, a college teacher for example, would be unable to afford a house in the very city. When was this ever a scenario in Indian society??

What about the bludgeoning number of millionaires in India along with the growing population ? Do you have concrete numbers on resident Indian vs NRIs and their property investments in urban areas ? Property bubbles are a common feature the world over and not just India. Talking of the common man like the Chennai teacher, thats a prime example of unhindered capitalism and lack of redistribution of wealth. Its simple supply-demand economics running amok. Unless there's concrete policies to tackle the same, it'll get worse. Can i just add that our middle class has grown three times (in percentage, not just numbers) in two decades, thus enabling better living standards for the Chennai teacher than earlier. Two thirds of India is our rural population, surely affected by inflation in general but not property prices in metros.

My expectations for NRIs is the same as that of any Indians. Remember your fundamental rights as well as civic duties. This whole discussion about increase of economic gap in India has component of Govt failure as well as citizen's apathy. You are concentarting on former, I am suggesting we need to look at both.

Not at all; my replies to your posts have been NRI related since i believe they are not responsible for our problems.

Nothing unneccessary about a point (Housing) which is a fundamental right of every citizen. If you can prove me that NRI development has not send the real estate market skyrocketing, and out of reach of common Indians, I will concede. But I am yet to see you even attempt a rebuttal at that. Maybe a tacid admission there?

I dont have the numbers .. please share some if you do. As per the general demographic facts (whether govt or McKinsey), our middle class has risen rapidly over the last two decades. The percentage of people who can thus afford housing now is certainly more than in the 80s.

I repeat what I said earlier - you need to have bit more faith in your country (unless you have traded your passport). If India is doing good it is because of Indians, and not NRIs. The latter have a role to play but lets not overstate the role of 5% (if that) Indian population over the rest 95%. xxx

Lets just agree that NRIs (and their dollars/pounds/dinars/dirhams etc) are useful. Talking of faith, that is limitless. I never applied for residency, forget a foreign passport. But those that did have helped India immensly as well and shall continue to do so.

[IKnowU]

Rich get richer and poor get poorer. Inequality at its best.

[Sir john]

hoping for best in future we can do only,

[gaurav92]

[saneindian]

Where's the inclusive growth that the present government has been ranting about for the last 6 years? All that sounds like a mirage and just an eyewash. The spending on the social sector may have gone up by billions of dollas, but the corrupt babus and netas are swindling 95% of it before it reaches the people it is meant for. How I wish someone could implement the idea of getting a bank/post office account for every family below the BPL in India, so that money meant for them ( through NREGA, health mission etc) could be directly transferred to their account. That could be the first step towards putting an end to the loot of the money.

[punjabi_khota]

Well, here comes the timely report ....future isn't as bleak if it is to be believed :dontknow: http://business.rediff.com/slide-show/2010/apr/20/slide-show-1-indians-hungry-for-more.htm Highlights: 1). India's middle class, which according to a McKinsey report was 50 million in 2005, would jump by 11.6 times or about 583 million by the end of 2025. 2) The reason is higher incomes. McKinsey's estimates suggest that as a result of rising incomes, 291 million people will move out of poverty and climb to higher income groups.

[seedhi]

I think you are making the same mistake as always Seedhi' date=' you are blaming Government for the ills of the nation. Not saying it does not deserve its share but entire blame game?[/quote']My argument is that Indians residents (and not NRIs) are primarily to blame for the ills of the country, whether they are in the govt or outside of it. It is very naive to blame NRIs.

Take land mafia for example, some of the richest Indian these days are these Real Estate wallahs. Someone like a DLF who was ranked by Fortune and Forbes to be the richest Real estate developer in the world in 2008/09. Really? You have got to be freaking kidding me!! How many world statured buildings have been erected by DLFs?? The company(and those like it) have made Gurgaon a cement cess pool where people buy 1.5 crore flat and have no roads to ply. It is amazing how real estate developers have absolutely no civic duties in India, in abroad they tend to invest atleast a fraction in the community utilities.

I agree with you, I just dont see how NRIs are to be exclusively blamed for the situation. Who allotted land for these builder mafias? Who failed to regulate them? Who lowered interest rates for home loans and fueled a disastrous inflationary cycle? It was the govt who did the bidding of the builder mafia. NRIs may not be entirely blameless but they are certainly small fry compared to the loot of public resources done by certain Indians living in India.

Neglect from whom?? Which Indian have you met who ever lived in a village(forget working in fields)?? You might have met some in college, if that. And even then there is a good chance that such folks would be looked down upon as rustic, pind wallah or dehaati. Why would anyone want to live in village where a) Naxals rule. b) Basic ammenities like electricity and education are missing. c) Rising prices are pushing them to bankrupcy d) Their own countrymen dont give a damn???

I am not blaming the people who choose to migrate to the cities because of their desperate situation, however this migration is no longer sustainable. If the govt had a will the situation can be rectified. There are places in India where high agricultural growth rate has been achieved and reverse migration has begun from urban to rural. One needs a committed leadership, and patience. Unfortunately the local political leadership in places like UP, Bihar, Jharkhand etc have failed miserably.

Those days are long gone boss.

Thankfully yes. But the NRIs did invest in India, they did buy Indian bonds and send money back when India had a need. Even today states like Kerala earn a lot of mney through remittances.

One positive trend that I see these days in India is the top rung are not making a bee-line for US Counsellate. They have enough, and often better oppertunity, in India. The lot that is coming out is the 2nd tier, and sometimes 3rd tier. Frankly this development encourages me lot more than the whole NRI-sends-remittance-saga. xxx

The number has certainly come down, which is undoubtedly good for India. I am infact hopeful that a lot of them will return home as well. In particular India is need of well qualified faculty in higher education and hopefully the foreign PhDs will return to take up positions in India.

[zubinpepsi]

may be Ambanis feels sad & guilty too ? funny how conveniently you call yourself "avg middle class " here . you are making probably 200$/hr , but still cant help .why ? I guess , u think you still dont make enough money , may be for a bigger house , better car etc etc ? or some other excuse ? The $2b house is disgusting , cos you cant afford it. not blaming you alone here , cos this very typical of us "avg middle class " , pity that most of us completely ignore our social responsibilities & still have the audacity to point fingers at others . As for the NRI's , talk about double standards. The jobs or revenues for govt , generated by Ambanis dont count but your remittances are as good as charity ? who are we trying fool here ,we all know why money is sent back to india . btw the article means nothing , any one whos lived in India & has seen changes in past few years would know theres realistic hope .The ones who are used to easy lives of the west , wont see it though .

haha seriously no.... when i say avg middle class.. i really mean it.. i dont wanna go in detail.. but I have a small house ( my parents own actually) in a village and i dont own anything else..we have a TVS super XL... so it is really an average middle class family... I dont complain.. as i dont care about the money.. but ofcourse my parents have an issue with this..thank god im not living with them.. so you shud have guessed im not earning much.. i am not the typical NRI you might have known of.. I live here int he place where I am.. cuz i find it peaceful..not cuz of the money.. If i had wanted money i wud have stayed in singapore or moved to US where there is more money to be earned .... in that way im selfish cuz i know i cant do zilch and i cant handle the sufferings of people.. hence i chose to stay out of all these where I dont see any of these.. here no one gives a sh!t about how qualified I am, how much money I have, how many properties I own and dont judge me based on that.. but when i see people with filthy richness im wondering how are these people to live with so much money and amass so much wealth which beyond a certain amount bears no value at all and can live, eat and sleep next to someone who dont even have the basic needs of a human being.. food, shelter, clothes.. this is my view.. and im not speaking for all the NRIs.... ow well india is shining innit? we have ambanis, tatas etc etc.... cool..

[Sachinism]

haha seriously no.... when i say avg middle class.. i really mean it.. i dont wanna go in detail.. but I have a small house ( my parents own actually) in a village and i dont own anything else..we have a TVS super XL... so it is really an average middle class family... I dont complain.. as i dont care about the money.. but ofcourse my parents have an issue with this..thank god im not living with them.. so you shud have guessed im not earning much.. i am not the typical NRI you might have known of.. I live here int he place where I am.. cuz i find it peaceful..not cuz of the money.. If i had wanted money i wud have stayed in singapore or moved to US where there is more money to be earned .... in that way im selfish cuz i know i cant do zilch and i cant handle the sufferings of people.. hence i chose to stay out of all these where I dont see any of these.. here no one gives a sh!t about how qualified I am, how much money I have, how many properties I own and dont judge me based on that.. but when i see people with filthy richness im wondering how are these people to live with so much money and amass so much wealth which beyond a certain amount bears no value at all and can live, eat and sleep next to someone who dont even have the basic needs of a human being.. food, shelter, clothes.. this is my view.. and im not speaking for all the NRIs.... ow well india is shining innit? we have ambanis, tatas etc etc.... cool..

Thats coz of you know what So stop slating it :finger:

[Guest Gunner]

haha seriously no.... when i say avg middle class.. i really mean it.. i dont wanna go in detail.. but I have a small house ( my parents own actually) in a village and i dont own anything else..we have a TVS super XL... so it is really an average middle class family... I dont complain.. as i dont care about the money.. but ofcourse my parents have an issue with this..thank god im not living with them.. so you shud have guessed im not earning much.. i am not the typical NRI you might have known of.. I live here int he place where I am.. cuz i find it peaceful..not cuz of the money.. If i had wanted money i wud have stayed in singapore or moved to US where there is more money to be earned .... in that way im selfish cuz i know i cant do zilch and i cant handle the sufferings of people.. hence i chose to stay out of all these where I dont see any of these.. here no one gives a sh!t about how qualified I am, how much money I have, how many properties I own and dont judge me based on that.. but when i see people with filthy richness im wondering how are these people to live with so much money and amass so much wealth which beyond a certain amount bears no value at all and can live, eat and sleep next to someone who dont even have the basic needs of a human being.. food, shelter, clothes.. this is my view.. and im not speaking for all the NRIs.... ow well india is shining innit? we have ambanis, tatas etc etc.... cool..

This is one of the best posts I have read here. Sincere and to the point. I completely agree with Zubin.

[zen]

It's not surprisng to see how a thread on Ind turns in to a blame game! :P

[zen]

One Direct Question:- What should be the salary of a person/family for you to be over the Poverty Line ?

I believe that a family shouldn't be just able to survive but also be able to entertainment itself, save for future, have proper insurances, etc. In short be able to live a resonsable life Depending up on where you live, the cost of living could vary, but in a non-metro, for a couple, I would assume, an income of INR 100K/Yr (after paying taxes) would be my idea of a baseline. If you have kid(s), then you would need a little more Also in Ind, there is this tradition where parents support their kids till the point they finish college and take up a job. Then ofc if they have a boy, they some of them try to get that expense back through dowery To shape up the society well, install a sense of purpose amongst citizens, and make them realze that there are bigger things than their own selves, it might not be a bad idea to develop a system where people join military for a year or two at the age of 18, after they complete their grade 12 and before they get in to universities Ofc being in the military should just not be about learning how to fire a gun but an opportunity to serve the country based on one's skills and in his/her area of interest. For example someone wanting to be a Doctor could help out in medical services, someone wanting to be an engineer could help out in technical services. Also doing that would mean that people from different sections of society (rich/poor, hindu/muslim/christians) are working together in teams for national interests. This would add value to their life, make them understand the area they want to get in to better, and importantly (and hopefully) have a sense of purpose (and keep national interests at heart) when they go on to do whatever they want in future

[nballa]

gotto expect the statistic when there are over a billion people competing for 2% of the resources. even china has over 2/3 rd below poverty like but we don't always hear about it because their government kills everyone below the line of course.

[punjabi_khota]

gotto expect the statistic when there are over a billion people competing for 2% of the resources. even china has over 2/3 rd below poverty like but we don't always hear about it because their government kills everyone below the line of course.

:nervous:

[patriot]

Let's break this poverty line figure statewise. 4 Bimar states: UP + Bihar + MP + Jharkhand = nearly 350 million people. Below poverty line in these states would not be much better than 75 % which means nearly 260 million people . Clearly if not for these bimar states India's GDP should be growing 11- 12 % for a long time now. Goldman Sachs and Mckinsey are known to make nonsense 40- 50 yr predictions. I remember GS's BRIC 50 year forecast 10 yr intervals - It is already wrong by over 25 % for India. State govts in the 4 bimar states keeps flip flopping from one harami illiterate CM to another. It is impossible for a GS or Mckinsey to predict if/when these 4 bimar states will get better governance - because when that happens it will change the entire forecasting game. As these 4 states drag down massively India's overall growth. That is what happens when nearly 35 % of your population prospers by a PATHETIC 4.5 % when the figure for India as a whole is 8.5 - 9.5 %. I know it is wishful thinking in a democracy like India but India's constitution must be amended so that these 4 bimaru states with very very high population growth and illiteracy come under Governor's rule with respectable corporates like Tata's , INfosys and Wipro running the administration TILL they achieve 80 % literacy rate.