Ratings on Indian Players

[Raghav_12]

Yeah, if you are one for counting centuries and not for looking at the context of lower scores in low scoring matches. Laxman's 38 in the first innings at Durban was more important than Tendulkar's century at Centurion after the pitch had become a pancake. Kallis scored a double, Amla made a century, De Villiers scored the fastest century by a South African, Dhoni made a near hundred, Sehwag and Gambhir were among the runs in similar conditions. In contrast Laxman's 38 was the highest score from either side in the first innings.

May be taking things out of context here but though Laxman was highest scorer in first innings but by not much - Dhoni scored 35, Out of form players like Dravid and Sehwag scored 25 each and even Bhajji scored 21. Then why Laxman's 38 was so extraordinarily special? In Durban we won both because of Laxman and superb bowling.

[The Outsider]

May be taking things out of context here but though Laxman was highest scorer in first innings but by not much - Dhoni scored 35' date=' Out of form players like Dravid and Sehwag scored 25 each and even Bhajji scored 21. Then why Laxman's 38 was so extraordinarily special? In Durban we won both because of Laxman and superb bowling.[/quote'] Well, a similar case can be made for Tendulkar's hundred at Centurion. Dhoni scored 90, Gambhir 80, out of form players Sehwag and Dravid 60 and 44. You got to contextualize the runs at Durban. I would say every run was worth around two at any other venue and doing so scores of 400, 250, 400, 400 would not look completely out of place on a normal pitch.

[maniac]

I am not ranking on basis of performance but these players should get a bonus point for the below mentioned moments.... Harbhajan:Hitting the shot of the series when he owned steyn with an awesome 6 while he was amidst the spell of the series. Sreeshanth:Ball of the series to get Kallis out.Mind games to get Smith out at a crucial moment. Sehwag:Despite being a failure,his presence was intimidating enough for the opposition. Dravid:200th slip catch shows that despite failing with the bat he is still very tidy in the slips. Tendulkar:No more the golden arm or reliable part time option but for taking the crucial wicket of Boucher. Dhoni:Has been pretty tidy behind the stumps which often gets overlooked. M.Vijay :For being our lucky charm yet again. Umesh Yadav:For staying away from the playing X1 as we do not need another tundler. Players who need points deducted... Dhoni:For not being a true leader(Not backing his players eg;Sreeshanth).His captaincy during the Kallis-Boucher partnership when he went into panic mode which doesn't quiet suit his capt.cool persona. Raina:He is already on many peoples failure list but if more points can be deducted for this guy we need to because his ability to play pace bowling and watching him bat was embarassing.He looked like he did not belong in an international level match. Jaidev Unadkat:See Raina above but replace bowling with Batting. Sehwag:For the brain fart in the 1st innings of the 1st test which set the tone for the remainder innings.

[maniac]

Jaidev Unadkat:See Raina above but replace bowling with Batting.

Sorry I meant batting with bowling

[The Outsider]

^ Good post. Can't disagree with anything.

[Raghav_12]

Well, a similar case can be made for Tendulkar's hundred at Centurion. Dhoni scored 90, Gambhir 80, out of form players Sehwag and Dravid 60 and 44. You got to contextualize the runs at Durban. I would say every run was worth around two at any other venue and doing so scores of 400, 250, 400, 400 would not look completely out of place on a normal pitch.

I had posted that in response of your post only when you were trying to downplay Sachin's runs in Centurion. What about Sachin's first innings at Centurion where he scored 36 out of 136 which is way better than 38 out of 205. Sachin was India's highest scorer in 3 out of 5 completed innings. And Laxman was in remaining two. Laxman's innings won Durban test match with good support from Bowlers. Sachin's innings saved Capetown test which we could have won had we got equal support from bowlers. Without these innings from these two India would have returned with a series lost. Overall Sachin scored 326 runs and 1 important wicket and Laxman scored 196. I would go with Sachin 9 and Laxman 7.5 or 8 for this tour.

[The Outsider]

^ I wasn't trying to downplay Tendulkar's runs, just contextualizing them and showing that they were not on a different scale than Laxman's score in the first innings at Durban. Both were very good innings, not great, not ordinary. I've given my readings of their innings in an earlier post already :

1. 1 superb innings each - Laxman 96 at Durban and Tendulkar 146 at Cape Town 2. 1 very good innings each - Laxman 38 at Durban and Tendulkar 111 at Centurion Tendulkar played 2 okay innings - first innings at Centurion and second innings at Cape Town. Laxman had one okay innings - second innings at Cape Town. Weigh that with the fact that Laxman scored more than double the number of runs anyone managed at Durban and there is nothing to choose between them.

Quoting total number of runs in the series is frankly a meaningless exercise because in such a small sample every innings has to be looked at within the context it was played. I can't believe I am having this discussion because three and a half years earlier I was actually trying to show to others the value of Tendulkar's runs in England despite his average in the 30s during the series.

[pensionplan]

I had posted that in response of your post only when you were trying to downplay Sachin's runs in Centurion. What about Sachin's first innings at Centurion where he scored 36 out of 136 which is way better than 38 out of 205. Sachin was India's highest scorer in 3 out of 5 completed innings. And Laxman was in remaining two. Laxman's innings won Durban test match with good support from Bowlers. Sachin's innings saved Capetown test which we could have won had we got equal support from bowlers. Without these innings from these two India would have returned with a series lost. Overall Sachin scored 326 runs and 1 important wicket and Laxman scored 196. I would go with Sachin 9 and Laxman 7.5 or 8 for this tour.

Hmm..With a Sachin picture below your moniker you were responding in what you perceived as downplaying your hero's efforts quitely without mentioning the most important factor that VVS has scored 96 in a game when none of the payers from either side crossed 40 in the 4 innings of the game. So from a team perspective VVS' 196 total did as much as Sachin's 326 if one is willing to look beyond mere numbers and VVS's knocks in that 2 innings were decisive in winning the 2nd Test without which the 3rd Test would not even had any significance to it if India went 0-2 down in a low scoring match. Just as you can perceive SRT's efforts are downplayed by his hardcore fans there could be others who feel that VVS's efforts are downplayed too when they see higher ratings for SRT over VVS in the series especially after VVS had the single most important knock in the entire series from either side which helped India square the series after the first Test walloping. So there.

[jusarrived]

Sehwag - 2/10 GG-8/10 RD-2/10 SRT-9/10 VVS-9/10 Pujara-3/10 Raina-1/10 Dhoni-7/10 Bhajji 8/10 Zak-6/10 Sree-6/10 Ishant 3/10

[pensionplan]

^ I wasn't trying to downplay Tendulkar's runs, just contextualizing them and showing that they were not on a different scale than Laxman's score in the first innings at Durban. Both were very good innings, not great, not ordinary. I've given my readings of their innings in an earlier post already :

You are not. But did you discount for the fact that there needs to be a factor of safety attached when it comes to SRT fans that has to be considered before putting something into its true perspective. So no matter what unless you directly say that SRT is better than XYZ you are indeed downplaying SRT's efforts. Hope you got that.

[Raghav_12]

Hmm..With a Sachin picture below your moniker you were responding in what you perceived as downplaying your hero's efforts quitely without mentioning the most important factor that VVS has scored 96 in a game when none of the payers from either side crossed 40 in the 4 innings of the game. So from a team perspective VVS' 196 total did as much as Sachin's 326 if one is willing to look beyond mere numbers and VVS's knocks in that 2 innings were decisive in winning the 2nd Test without which the 3rd Test would not even had any significance to it if India went 0-2 down in a low scoring match. Just as you can perceive SRT's efforts are downplayed by his hardcore fans there could be others who feel that VVS's efforts are downplayed too when they see higher ratings for SRT over VVS in the series especially after VVS had the single most important knock in the entire series from either side which helped India square the series after the first Test walloping. So there.

I am proud to be Sachin fan and hence that moniker. My interest in cricket goes by admiring players be it Sachin or Laxman. While there is other kind of people who thrive only on criticizing things and always go by anti-incumbency as I had defined in my one of earlier posts. As your user name also suggests that you give more importance to negative feelings than positive ones so you definitely falls in other category. It's a pity that you need Sachin fans to define yourself. Look at your post. You saying that Sachin's innings would have been of no value if Laxman had not played that innings in Durban. Agree completely. But at the same time what value Laxman's innings had carried if Sachin had not played that Capetown innings? India would have lost the series and Laxman's innings would have turned futile. I rate Sachin's performance in this series slightly better than Laxman. As both played one series defining knock - 96 and 141 (equal in value for me). Both played one decent knock where others crumbled - Sachin 36 out of 136 and Laxman 38 out 205. Sachin gets extra point for his 111* not out innings where he was one good partnership away from saving test match.

[pensionplan]

I am proud to be Sachin fan and hence that moniker. My interest in cricket goes by admiring players be it Sachin or Laxman. While there is other kind of people who thrive only on criticizing things and always go by anti-incumbency as I had defined in my one of earlier posts. As your user name also suggests that you give more importance to negative feelings than positive ones so you definitely falls in other category. It's a pity that you need Sachin fans to define yourself.

Typical Tendulkar fanboy response. Nothing to merit discussion here excepting he said she said business. Let us move on.

Look at your post. You saying that Sachin's innings would have been of no value if Laxman had not played that innings in Durban. Agree completely. But at the same time what value Laxman's innings had carried if Sachin had not played that Capetown innings? India would have lost the series and Laxman's innings would have turned futile.

I do not know what you are implying here. No matter which way you slice it and dice it the Man of the Match from the 2nd Test VVS from a batting perspective owned that Test from both sides. On the other hand SRT's performances were matched in both Tests or even bettered by batters from SA read Kallis. And by the way India would have lost that Cape Town Test on that 5th day if not for the combined efforts of GG/RD and to a lesser extent SRT and VVS and not just because of Tendulkar. Tendulkar's first inning heroics aided by GG's 90 odd put India on par with Kalli's effort. India did not win or lose the game at that point. The game swung on the 4th day when India from a winning position after reducing SA to 130 for 6 let the game slip way thanks to the ineptness of HS and an injured ZK and nothing IS after which on the 5th day GG and RD's vigil and then SRT and VVS played it out in the last 80 minutes. GG did very well in that Test in both the innings. So in that sense Tendulkar alone will not and should not get credit for that 2nd Test though I will give him par points overall with GG for that 3rd Test.

I rate Sachin's performance in this series slightly better than Laxman. As both played one series defining knock - 96 and 141 (equal in value for me). Both played one decent knock where others crumbled - Sachin 36 out of 136 and Laxman 38 out 205. Sachin gets extra point for his 111* not out innings where he was one good partnership away from saving test match.

Then say so that you rate Tendulkar higher which is fine with out ranting that others are downplaying SRT's efforts as you did in the earlier posts. On the same token let others think what they think of VVS's knocks especially that 96 to be much better given no other batsman from either side crossed 40 in the entire match than any of Tendulkar's knocks in this series including that 146 in the same innings where GG got 94 and Kallis 161.

[Raghav_12]

And by the way India would have lost that Cape Town Test on that 5th day if not for the combined efforts of GG/RD and to a lesser extent SRT and VVS and not just because of Tendulkar. Tendulkar's first inning heroics aided by GG's 90 odd put India on par with Kalli's effort. India did not win or lose the game at that point. The game swung on the 4th day when India from a winning position after reducing SA to 130 for 6 let the game slip way thanks to the ineptness of HS and an injured ZK and nothing IS after which on the 5th day GG and RD's vigil and then SRT and VVS played it out in the last 80 minutes. GG did very well in that Test in both the innings. So in that sense Tendulkar alone will not and should not get credit for that 2nd Test though I will give him par points overall with GG for that 3rd Test.

And bowlers should not get any credit for bundling out SA for 131?? Don't you think that's where we won the match?

[Raghav_12]

and when we are at it, Test-series-player-ratings-India http://www.cricket365.com/basket/15273/story/6642083/Test-series-player-ratings-India

[Laaloo]

100/10 for Sachin( just to keep his fanboys happy) Laxman 9/10

[fineleg]

Outcome of this series: Bring in someone else in place of Raina in the squad. Badrinath is one - he has had a good domestic season - Che to still keep the spot in the playing 11, with someone like Badri or Rahane as the backup for any injured batsmen. Drop Instant Karma and ask him to work on his bowling (and tell him I.Pu.L does not count).

[pensionplan]

And bowlers should not get any credit for bundling out SA for 131?? Don't you think that's where we won the match?

Bowlers win matches is an old adage in cricket. Laxman's great effort the bat on a seaming pitch the best batting effort in the entire series, bowlers taking advantage of the conditions and getting 20 wickets and splendid catching all contributed to the win.

[Raghav_12]

Bowlers win matches is an old adage in cricket. Laxman's great effort the bat on a seaming pitch the best batting effort in the entire series' date=' bowlers taking advantage of the conditions and getting 20 wickets and splendid catching all contributed to the win.[/quote'] That's whole thing. Cricket is team game and nobody wins game single-handedly, be it Laxman or Sachin, particularly test matches.