Sachin Tendulkar or Vivian Richards?

[The Outsider]

As expected' date=' when comapring vs Viv, bring in the ODI stats, but in the comparison vs Lara , stick to test matches is what we get to hear![/quote']

[Cricket Tragic]

Actually' date=' both Richards and [b']Ponting scored in their second attempts. Same with Warne - had a poor final the first time round and was Man of the Match next time. Ditto McGrath.

3rd for Ponting.

[mishra]

3rd for Ponting.

:hysterical::hysterical::hysterical: You just changed Outy opinion

[akshayxyz]

It seems, the only criteria of evaluating "pressure situation/match" is - it has to be a WC final , or simply whenever Sachin failed.

[CSK Fan]

We are talking about World Cup Finals - so many great cricketers haven't got a chance to play in even one. What kind of a sample size are you looking for in World Cup Finals? There are many circumstances in life where you get just one chance, not even two. And why not? If their performance is too close to call otherwise, what's wrong in the World Cup final being the decisive criteria - it is the pinnacle of achievement in ODI cricket. It's not that I am putting anyone who performed in a World Cup final like Jayawardene, DeSilva or David Boon ahead of Tendulkar, but because I consider Tendulkar and Richards to be evenly matched otherwise that I am picking their performance at the top stage of ODI cricket to be the decisive factor. It was the second highest score of the match and the highest score from his side - I suppose the difference between a high and low scoring ODI is not relevant here? Amarnath was Man of the Match in that game for scoring 26 runs at a strike rate of 30 and picking up two tail enders and a wicket keeper. Funny, you were talking about circumstances and unlucky dismissals in some post above, but ignore the circumstances of Richards' dismissal as a result of one of the greatest outfield catches. And in the first final, Richards ran out 3 batsmen - not the straightforward run out chances, but a product of brilliant fielding among them Greg and Ian Chappell and 3 out out of the top 4. Yeah, it's not related to batting but does showcase how he raised the bar on the occasion. Tell me of one other great cricketer who has failed to perform in a World Cup final besides Tendulkar and Murali, and Murali won't make the top 10 of ODI bowlers anyway. In fact, many would pick Warne over Murali because of his heroics in the '99 WC knockout stage.

All I would say is that do you expect me to believe, that someone who swears by numbers, pretends to understand mathematics at a higher level, does not understand what is wrong with using 1 or 2 matches as a sample to compare careers of 2 batsmen? Just because a large enough sample is not available, do you base your conclusion on a sample size of 1 or 2 and expect it to give meaningful results?

[saneindian]

Was not aimed at you. There are a few others who keep harping on test stats only in a certain thread but will easily jump to ODIs when it suits them in these comparison threads.

[zen]

While chasing in the tournament finals SRT avg. 55 Viv avg. 47.

If seen with the right perspective, an avg for 47 in 70s-90s, when many even struggled to avg 40 is exceptional. Also relatively speaking, the team totals were lower :winky:

[yoda]

It seems' date=' the only criteria of evaluating "pressure situation/match" is - it has to be a WC final , or simply whenever Sachin failed.[/quote'] It is the biggest stage and yes I expect a great player like SRT to perform on such a stage and I am sure so did you or any Indian fan for that matter.

[The Outsider]

3rd for Ponting.

Well, the '99 final would hardly classify as an attempt. He walked into bat when the match was all but over after Gilchrist's innings and by the time he was dismissed some 15-20 runs were needed.

[akshayxyz]

All I would say is that do you expect me to believe' date=' that someone who swears by numbers, pretends to understand mathematics at a higher level, [b']does not understand what is wrong with using 1 or 2 matches as a sample to compare careers of 2 batsmen? Just because a large enough sample is not available, do you base your conclusion on a sample size of 1 or 2 and expect it to give meaningful results?

this. Also, in other words, a sample size of couple of matches as the 'definition' of "pressure" situations.

[pensionplan]

^ Actually both Richards and Ponting had a bowling attack good enough to win the final.... Unlike ours where Zak was peeing in his pants even before he bowled his first ball. Our bowlers put our batsmen under pressure to score atleat 300+ even before the first ball is bowled....

Yes bowlers messed it up in the finals. Let us see. In the final almost a year back GG and Kohli and MSD chased down 274 while SRT laid an egg. When all the door are shut to defend Tendulkar blame bowlers, other batsman, the end that Tendulkar bats, Umpires and last but not the least the expectations of biliion people.

[CSK Fan]

What is this deal with chasing 360? The more you chase, aren't you as a big game player, expected to step up to the occasion and at least bring your team close? Yes finals are a big deal, especially if you have watched other sport. Big name players all perform in the finals. One thing with Cricket though is that you only get one chance, unlike footy or basketball where you get a chance to perform over a period of time. So, yea it is tougher here and all the more special if you can take your team through the final hump. This is one reason why IMO Dhoni's 91* is a big a big deal.

Which is why Sachin has the best stats among all of them you named in the finals As for chasing 360, the reason its put there is here we are using that criteria to compare Viv and Sachin, yet the playground is not level so to speak. where we have one guy batting first, the other guy is starting with a knowledge that he needs to hit out and chase 360. So unless both had the same set of conditions, you cannot compare one with the other. so it was used in that context

[CSK Fan]

Yes bowlers messed it up in the finals. Let us see. In the final almost a year back GG and Kohli and MSD chased down 274 while SRT laid an egg. When all the door are shut to defend Tendulkar blame bowlers' date=' other batsman, the end that Tendulkar bats, Umpires and last but not the least the expectations of biliion people.[/quote'] And I will repeat again. This is a grand sample of 1 match Yes, one single match. And of course you cannot see the fallity of using a grand sample of one to judge a player's entire career. When we know that he has stepped up and scored in lots of finals before, yet we use this grand sample of one match plus one other where we were chasing 360 to make sweeping statements on a players entire career. And yet you expect to be taken seriously?

[pensionplan]

Was not aimed at you. There are a few others who keep harping on test stats only in a certain thread but will easily jump to ODIs when it suits them in these comparison threads.

As if Tendulkar fanatics are never gulity of fudging stats to show Tendulkar in better light. Bossbhai makes a living off of that here on this forum. That and cursing others moms, sisters etc.

[akshayxyz]

It is the biggest stage and yes I expect a great player like SRT to perform on such a stage and I am sure so did you or any Indian fan for that matter.

The real world does not run as per your fantasies (which anyway keeps shifting). Can you list down the metrics that you used to compare the 'pressures' of - lets say 2003 ind-vs-pak , vs WC 2003 final. ( the least I expect from you is, to consider the overall strengths of teams, especially bowling units - and not to mention the hype leading into the game.. I can list down 10s of metrics that can show Viv's/ponting's innings came in much relaxed conditions).

[vvvslaxman]

I was checking world cup final records.. wow gilly.. 2 fifties and a century against 3 subcontinent sides.. Great guy to have at the top. Fearless mofo.

[velu]

Not unless you have comprehension problems. I am just saying if you have to compare two players' date=' all circumstances should be equal. did Richards chase 360 and win? Did Richard succeed in 3 out of 3 finals? Then how can Sachin's innings be compared to him?[/quote'] check what i quoted, and what i replied :winky: u r hell bent to prove that viv failed in 2 finals but infact its one and that too it was his 5th game of his career .. u self pawned yourself , even if we eliminate our 2003 finals bcoz we were chasing 360 , what sachin did in 2011 , we were chasing a modest 275 and not 360 :hysterical:

[zen]

We have had 10 WC finals of which Ind have entered 3. And playing in 2 finals is suppose to be a small sample, esp. when every cricketer looks forward to perfoming in them :hysterical: .... first final's bad performance can be overlooked but then you get a 2nd chance to reedem yourself, being considered a great of the game, you could back yourself to deliver

[pensionplan]

I would take Richards and Gilly over Tendulkar anyday of the week in ODI's. No one sent chills down the spine of the opponents in the history of the One day game as these two. And they have been one of the reasons why their teams won multiple World cups and other important non-WC events.

Bossbhai ki bolti bandh.

[The Outsider]

All I would say is that do you expect me to believe, that someone who swears by numbers, pretends to understand mathematics at a higher level, does not understand what is wrong with using 1 or 2 matches as a sample to compare careers of 2 batsmen? Just because a large enough sample is not available, do you base your conclusion on a sample size of 1 or 2 and expect it to give meaningful results?

Let me ask you this instead - if you consider two players to be pretty much equal otherwise, but one player has done significantly better than the other at the pinnacle of the sport (assuming you do consider World Cup finals to be the pinnacle of ODI cricket), who would you pick regardless the sample size of the World Cup finals being 1,2, or 3? Statistics can be applied only when there is a decent enough sample size, which as you correctly point out is not enough in this case. However, not everything has to be done through statistics. Why do you even need statistics to see who has done better in World Cup finals? You don't get a statistically significant sample size to perform in for so many events in your life - doesn't make those events meaningless.