Indian Trundlers take note

[BeautifulGame]

what about brett lee' date=' gillespie, both were 140 plus. lillie and thomson in 70s.[/quote'] Gillespe wasnt a genuine quick.He bowled mostly in mid 130s.Brett lee wasnt a regular till the 2005 Ashes ( in which Gillespe lost form badly) series.He was even dropped for their tour of India and Aus preffered Kasprovic who is a fast medium bowler at best. Aussies started dominating cricket form 1995 and mostly had a pace attack of Macgrath , Fleming , Reiffel , Gillespe and similar bowlers most of the time of their domination.None of them were genuine quicks.

[Needforspeed]

Gillespe wasnt a genuine quick.He bowled mostly in mid 130s.Brett lee wasnt a regular till the 2005 Ashes ( in which Gillespe lost form badly) series.He was even dropped for their tour of India and Aus preffered Kasprovic who is a fast medium bowler at best. Aussies started dominating cricket form 1995 and mostly had a pace attack of Macgrath , Fleming , Reiffel , Gillespe and similar bowlers most of the time of their domination.None of them were genuine quicks.

Sure . None of them were trudlers either. Gillipse was nearer to the 138-140 mark most of the time. Brett Lee was genuinely quick.Craig McDermott also used to bowl in the 137-142 range. Mitchell Johnson even now bowls at 140+. Glenn Mcgarth started as a 140-142 bowler but over the years reduced it..but even then he could bowl in the 136-138 corridor as long as he was playing for Australia. (It is a different issue that he became a trudler in the last IPL season he played-but that was long after his retirement) Merv Hughes was also reasonably quick. So none of them were trudlers. Except Brett lee none were in the 150+ bracket either, but were in the 135+ bracket on a sustained basis. But the most important thing was that suddenly they would surprise the batsmen with a quicker one..and that was enough to keep most batsmen guessing. The so called swing bowler, Vinay Kumar bowler in swinging conditions of England was the worst of the Indian bowlers in the one day series with an Economy rate of over 6.5..and his pace at around 125. Club bowlers in Australia bowl faster than that...and Mithun from what we saw recently, has neither pace, swing or movement. These two guys are true trundlers in every sense of the word. These guys are going to be easy meat in Australian conditions. They are going to come on at the right pace and height for the out of form Aussie bowlers to get back in form.

[The Realist]

Nobody is saying pace is everything (Shaun Tait is a good example of that) but even if you have an erractic fast bowler, when he clicks he will rip through a batting order and win you games. A trundler on the other hand is exactly that, a trundler, mediocrity which delivers nothing of substance and rarely win games on his own. Fast bowler > trundler any day of the week

[Jersey #10]

Nobody is saying pace is everything (Shaun Tait is a good example of that) but even if you have an erractic fast bowler, when he clicks he will rip through a batting order and win you games. A trundler on the other hand is exactly that, a trundler, mediocrity which delivers nothing of substance and rarely win games on his own. Fast bowler > trundler any day of the week

Exaggeration?

[jairamesh]

It's not about being an out and out speed demon but the very fabric of being a pace Test bowler. Where an average speed of 135k (+/- 5k) is the minimum requirement. Vinay Kumar and Mithun are just embarrassing unable to cross 125k regularly, at Test level this pace doesn't hurry batsmen who are happy to plod around with no run-rate pressure unlike ODIs. If Vinay Kumar and Mithun play in the Box Day Test then I can't think of a more embarrassing Indian bowling line-up in recent years. And if Australia loose with these two playing, the Australian cricket is truly gone to the gutters. Show me a trundler who has picked up 200 wickets at an average at least in the low 30s? PS: Feel sorry for Ashwin.

[express bowling]

This constant pakiesque masturbation to pace on ICF is becoming repetitive and boring. A bowler exists to bowl effectively and pick up wickets- not run in and hurl the ball as quickly as he can. If a bowler who bowls medium pace is more effective than one who bowls phaast, then we should be picking the medium pacer. If its the other way round, pick the phaast one.

One problem that arises with that theory is that in domestic cricket batsmen are of an inferior quality and get beaten even by accurate medium pace deliveries. A trundler often picks up more wickets because he bowls more accurate deliveries than the quick man. But, in international cricket, the batsmen are so much better that accuracy and movement are often not good enough, especially in tests, unless the ball is delivered with decent pace or bounce or both. Just pace is not good enough also. The bowler must have other skills to become a strike bowler in test matches. Movement, accuracy, bounce and bowling to a plan are equally important. But pace is the quality that is the most difficult to increase with experience whereas a bowler very often becomes more accurate and moves the ball more efficiently and becomes more skilled along with time. That is why pace is the starting point and after finding a bowler of decent pace other skills need to be developed without sacrificing pace. Bounce is another quality that gets ignored often these days with the fanaticism about speed gun readings. A fast medium bowler often creates the same discomfort to the batsman as a genuine quick if he gets steep bounce like McGrath. It is not necessary to be the fastest bowler in the world. But being able to bowl a lot of deliveries above 135 k is necessary to constantly fox international batsmen, unless the bowler has a lot of experience to make up for his lack of pace, like in the last 2 or 3 years of his career. No trundler has ever become a strike bowler in the history of test cricket must carry some meaning. Having atleast 1 bowler who can bowl around 145 k or more and can soften the batsmen up or take wickets on a flat track is a very big plus for any team.

[punjabi_khota]

One problem that arises with that theory is that in domestic cricket batsmen are of an inferior quality and get beaten even by accurate medium pace deliveries. A trundler often picks up more wickets because he bowls more accurate deliveries than the quick man. But, in international cricket, the batsmen are so much better that accuracy and movement are often not good enough, especially in tests, unless the ball is delivered with decent pace or bounce or both. Just pace is not good enough also. The bowler must have other skills to become a strike bowler in test matches. Movement, accuracy, bounce and bowling to a plan are equally important. But pace is the quality that is the most difficult to increase with experience whereas a bowler very often becomes more accurate and moves the ball more efficiently and becomes more skilled along with time. That is why pace is the starting point and after finding a bowler of decent pace other skills need to be developed without sacrificing pace. Bounce is another quality that gets ignored often these days with the fanaticism about speed gun readings. A fast medium bowler often creates the same discomfort to the batsman as a genuine quick if he gets steep bounce like McGrath. It is not necessary to be the fastest bowler in the world. But being able to bowl a lot of deliveries above 135 k is necessary to constantly fox international batsmen, unless the bowler has a lot of experience to make up for his lack of pace, like in the last 2 or 3 years of his career. No trundler has ever become a strike bowler in the history of test cricket must carry some meaning. Having atleast 1 bowler who can bowl around 145 k or more and can soften the batsmen up or take wickets on a flat track is a very big plus for any team.

What was Kapil Dev's speed ?

[MCcricket]

For all those guys complaining about emphasis on pacers, need to know, in a test match , u need someone to bowl with pace, batsmen have to be pressured into making a mistake, unlike ODI OR T20 where batsmen make a mistake to speed up scoring.Many people are confusing themseleves when talking about pacers, for a bowler to survive, take wickets at lower strike rate, bowl in all conditions he has to either have express pace or be fast medium with added skills like seam swing or a novelty value like a Malinga or be a 6 6" giant who can bowl with accuracy at 133 k and hold one end. Strike bowlers need to take wickets as to win a test match u need to take 20 wickets in a limited time,anyone who watches and understands test matches will know how priceless a strike bowler can be,like a good forward in football ,u could have a g8 team without strikers who will score ur goals.Any one who wants to deride this thought or ridicule it infact hasn't played the game or understands the need for speed, Zaheer is a fast medium so is Ishant, trundlers are bowler who bowl 120 to 130 which is useless in test's unless they are allrounders with g8 batting to boot. History has proved no bowling g8 is a trundler, Mcgrath, Gillespie, Lillee, Marshall, Hadlee , all were either fast or fast medium , Sreekants selections are fudged as he chooses wrong bowlers for wrong formats , also the bowlers dropping pace to avoid injuries is not good enough, would u have Munaf bowling at 133k or bowling at 142 k and swinging the ball, how on earth will Mithun , VK bowling at 130 k, take 20 wickets at a decent strike rate

[rkt.india]

Gillespie was more often than not' date=' in Test cricket, at around 135kph.[/quote'] I have seen him bowling in 140s in tests and 135K in test with bounce and movement is a good speed. We do not have even 135K bowlers with those attributes.

[rkt.india]

Gillespe wasnt a genuine quick.He bowled mostly in mid 130s.Brett lee wasnt a regular till the 2005 Ashes ( in which Gillespe lost form badly) series.He was even dropped for their tour of India and Aus preffered Kasprovic who is a fast medium bowler at best. Aussies started dominating cricket form 1995 and mostly had a pace attack of Macgrath , Fleming , Reiffel , Gillespe and similar bowlers most of the time of their domination.None of them were genuine quicks.

what are you talking about Lee was not a regular for you. He was always regular. Can you tell me who was the third seamer fro Aus if not for Lee. Kasprowicz was not regular that is only played 38 tests in his career and Lee played 70 odd. Kasperowicz was prefrred iSC because of hsi ability to reverse the ball and bowl cuters at a decent pace. he cold still bowl 140 whenever wanted. Kasper was not a trundler nor GIllespie. GIllespie was as fast as Yadav and Aaron are, not less than that. Brett Lee at that time in 2004 had come back from a long injury lay off after world cup and was struggling with his rhythm and form. And IMHO, Aus domination did not start from 95, it 3was mainly started from 1999 home series when they clean swept Indian and Pak. Before that SA was a proving to be a better team and WI was always there to give both of them some fight. Till 1995, it was WI who dominated but after that 4 years, SA, Aus, and WI were fighting with each other and SA had the edge, but emergence of Brett Lee in 1999 proved a great thing for them as they had a suoerb genuine third seam option which the lacked before and were dependent on Flaming and Paul Reiffel who were not all that impact bowlers. Now they had Mcgrath, Gillespie, and Lee as a trioka of pacers.

[rkt.india]

This constant pakiesque masturbation to pace on ICF is becoming repetitive and boring. A bowler exists to bowl effectively and pick up wickets- not run in and hurl the ball as quickly as he can. If a bowler who bowls medium pace is more effective than one who bowls phaast, then we should be picking the medium pacer. If its the other way round, pick the phaast one.

Are Cummins and Pattnnson Pakis? Is Merchant De Lange a paki? Is Kemar Roach is paki? if they are not paki, hwo can yoiu say that this is pakiesque. Those countries talk about pace and genuine fast bowlers more than any body else.

[rkt.india]

What was Kapil Dev's speed ?

Kapil was quite fast, at least in fast medium category when he first started. I had seen a footage of him of 1981 England tour on ESPN and he looked quite fast at least was in mid 130s range if not more with the way he was beating and hurrying the English batsmen. BTW, Kapil in the end has an average record for a fast bowler that is good for Indian standard but if you compare him to other great fast bowlers, he is not where near in terms of average and SR, though another aspect is he did not have much fast bowling support from the other end but he had great spinners with him and that has been the case with most Indian fast bowlers.

[express bowling]

What was Kapil Dev's speed ?

Kapil had an overall average of 29.64 in tests. Real strike bowlers have always had averages of 26 or less. Kapil's career as a pacer had 2 distinct parts. Before he had his knee injury in the mid 1980s, Kapil was quite nippy, definitely fast-medium, and swung the ball at decent pace. He took around 300 wickets from 75 tests. That was great. After the operation Kapil became a trundler and from then on he took 134 wickets from 56 tests.

[Rightarmfast]

Wow ! Gillespie not being genuine quick and Brett Lee not being a regular in the Aus team is NEWS for me ! Gillespie was a red hot genuine quickie who could bowl in excess of 150 at will. Please try to watch matches pre 2000 and you will know how quick he was. It was only after the advent of Brett Lee that he reduced his pace to 135-142 . And I cant fathom what makes you think Brett Lee wasnt a regular in the team ? Coming back to Fleming, Kaspro, they were both fast medium who could bowl at around 140 + . So they werent exactly trundlers !

[Old guy]

Wow ! Gillespie not being genuine quick and Brett Lee not being a regular in the Aus team is NEWS for me ! Gillespie was a red hot genuine quickie who could bowl in excess of 150 at will. Please try to watch matches pre 2000 and you will know how quick he was. It was only after the advent of Brett Lee that he reduced his pace to 135-142 . And I cant fathom what makes you think Brett Lee wasnt a regular in the team ? Coming back to Fleming, Kaspro, they were both fast medium who could bowl at around 140 + . So they werent exactly trundlers !

he wasnt regular in tests he made come back into test side in that ashes tour gillespie pre 2000 maybe in 1-2 occasion he bowled at 150 but bowling 150 at will>? no freaking way lol he bowled mostly in 130's and osme quick ones in lower 140's in most part of his career

[Needforspeed]

Brett Lee wasnt a Test regular only towards the end of his test career (2008) and during the period he was injured. Between 1999 and 2008, he played 76 tests which is not bad.

[Rightarmfast]

he wasnt regular in tests he made come back into test side in that ashes tour gillespie pre 2000 maybe in 1-2 occasion he bowled at 150 but bowling 150 at will>? no freaking way lol he bowled mostly in 130's and osme quick ones in lower 140's in most part of his career

Shows how much you have followed his career !

[BeautifulGame]

what are you talking about Lee was not a regular for you. He was always regular. Can you tell me who was the third seamer fro Aus if not for Lee. Kasprowicz was not regular that is only played 38 tests in his career and Lee played 70 odd. Kasperowicz was prefrred iSC because of hsi ability to reverse the ball and bowl cuters at a decent pace. he cold still bowl 140 whenever wanted. Kasper was not a trundler nor GIllespie. GIllespie was as fast as Yadav and Aaron are, not less than that. Brett Lee at that time in 2004 had come back from a long injury lay off after world cup and was struggling with his rhythm and form.

Where did i say Kasper or Gillespe were trundlers.I said they were not genuine quicks which is the truth.Gillespse even cut his pace to some extent after his return from that freak training ground injury in 99 IIRC.Incidently only after cutting his pace he blossomed into a world class bowler and became Aus 2nd best seamer. And lee wasnt a regular till 2005 Ashes after he was dropped from their tour of India.He was dropped Kasper's great series in Srilanka and Lee's poor form.And Kasper was picked ahead of Lee till the 2005 Ashes when Lee made a comeback on back of Kasper's poor form.Thats nearly 2 years and 16 tests. And if u check Lee's career u will note that after his spectacular start Lee completely of the boil and struggled in test cricket till he made his comeback in Ashes 2005 after which he cemented his spot in Aus as their 2nd best seamer.

And IMHO, Aus domination did not start from 95, it 3was mainly started from 1999 home series when they clean swept Indian and Pak. Before that SA was a proving to be a better team and WI was always there to give both of them some fight. Till 1995, it was WI who dominated but after that 4 years, SA, Aus, and WI were fighting with each other and SA had the edge, but emergence of Brett Lee in 1999 proved a great thing for them as they had a suoerb genuine third seam option which the lacked before and were dependent on Flaming and Paul Reiffel who were not all that impact bowlers. Now they had Mcgrath, Gillespie, and Lee as a trioka of pacers.

Aussies domination started after they knocked of the WI on their own turf in the 1995 series in west Indies.Till then West Indies where considered the best team but after that series marked the start Aussie domination. And i dont know which base u are saying SA where fighting with Aussies for domination.SA where never considered anywhere close to Aus or WI at that time.Aus even won the test series in SA.SA didnt win a series in Eng let alone WI or Aus during that time when Eng was an awful team and Aussies and WI where routinely thrashing them. SA were considered a major threat only in ODIS in test cricket it was btw Aus and WI.By winning the series in WI proved they are the best in world and never looked back since.Brett Lee was never a major part of Aus attack during most of their domination.

[MCcricket]

Gillespie had pace, I remember his spell in India along with Flintoff , him bowling with a lot of venom and he was bowling between 145 to 150 k, his pace length , height , whippy action is closest to Sreenath in his prime,Kaspersky had prodigious movement and was bowling close to 140 most of the time,we have bowlers bowling at 125 to 130 enter the test arena which is pitiful,people who complain about us over emphasizing on pace are similar to people who want teams to be selected on domestic averages lol, then we will have a team of, Joginder sharma, Narwal, Sudhindra, Mithun, VK, Badrinath and all the other mediocre players who are only good for Domestic circuit.

[BeautifulGame]

Gillespie had pace' date= I remember his spell in India along with Flintoff , him bowling with a lot of venom and he was bowling between 145 to 150 k, his pace length , height , whippy action is closest to Sreenath in his prime,Kaspersky had prodigious movement and was bowling close to 140 most of the time,we have bowlers bowling at 125 to 130 enter the test arena which is pitiful,people who complain about us over emphasizing on pace are similar to people who want teams to be selected on domestic averages lol, then we will have a team of, Joginder sharma, Narwal, Sudhindra, Mithun, VK, Badrinath and all the other mediocre players who are only good for Domestic circuit.

Gillespe never bowled that sort of speed in India considering he only played one series in India (2004 series) and that was after his surgery in 1999.