"If there is a guy that's the same standard as me...

[saneindian]

Another failure with the bat for Boucher.

[Lord]

Now after this tour' date=' he will have lot of time work on that glitch. This error was there before too and that is why he could not become regular for a long time but he worked on that and and came back strongly. He will do it again and if he does not do it then he will have to sit out. I am not partial at all. I am just in favor of giving him another chances because he has done that before and scored runs and has age on his side.[/quote'] for how long?we know the technical issue will be masked,but what happens wen we tour?ditto with Sehwag if he only gonna score in SC,whats it for?why not develop young players like Mukund n Rahane? I'm just saying these losses are collective failure.apart from losing,the disinterest has been appaling.n its not just seniors.to me biggest culprit is Fletcher bcoz hes the only change after WC averaging 50 over 25 tests n over 100 tests are two different things.Dravid was already a proven player who had done well in all conditions b4 his bad form,not the case with Gambhir.about manner of dismissal,I find batsman edging wide deliveries more embarassing.atleast Dravid was made to play n if he made a mistake he was out,but Gambhir's dismissal were of deliveries which he could've Ileft alne . in days of Kapil,Zaheer,Srinath,there werent many options hence they were retained.also we werent as good a team.but now competitions is tough.n its not like hes inexperienced.hes played 40 test n still doesnt have a clue how to bowl n on top of that has the cheek to say that hes just unlucky.I'm not saying discard him forever.but he needs to bowl in FC to know how to take wickets.talent works for first 1-2 years,not after that.we have Aaron,Dinda n Abu Nechim waiting in FC cricket,they deserve to play ahead of Ishnt imo e were in India. Most Indian youngsters will score runs in India. I am not talking about just one Oz series. One series does not make an average of less than 40 in 4 years for a number 3 batsmen. Give those many years to Kohli or Pujara or Rahane even they can average 40, even more than 40. I am not talking about their peaks. Because their peaks are not gonna come back again. They can still score runs here and there but not consistently and will never at the standard they had set. exactly.treat every non-performer equally.thats what I'm saying I dont think his reflexes have slowed down.he still playing all the shots.maybe concentration is.to me is the pressure media has created about his ton.u can see he is thinking about it all the time.hes just not relaxed at the crease

[rkt.india]

for how long?we know the technical issue will be masked' date='but what happens wen we tour?ditto with Sehwag if he only gonna score in SC,whats it for?why not develop young players like Mukund n Rahane?[/quote'] I am all for giving chance to new guys but also give proven performers chance to revive hen someone has age on his side because that guy has already proved he can play. Yes failures are collective but still you expect your best players who are ATGs to perform and score runs. I have no question over Dravid, but Gambhir has been as good as any opener overseas before England tour for us. His performances in NZ and SA have been good. Remember his match saving marathon inning in NZ. I do not think any other Indian batsmen has played an inning like that under pressure to save a match where they had to bat 2 days. Gambhir was highest run getter for us in CB series 2008 against better bowling attack and in tougher conditions than this time around in ODIs. I am raising questions over SRT, RD, VVS, Viru because of their age factor and they are not gonna get better and do not make a future for Team India. Ishant has 2 MOS in tests, has over 140 wickets and you are saying he does not know how to take wickets and that too at the age of 23. This is the age to learn and he will learn from his mistakes. How many Indian fast bowlers have 2 MOS? Regarding we did not have options then, we did not have options even now who are better than Ishant.

[adi B]

Now why don't the Indian players....I mean maharathis think like that?

they think its a govt job, with good perks, easy life,job security cent % nd later they hope to get pension, particularly laxman

[chainsmoker1985]

Oh god. That is the reason I asked you if you think he is Rajnikant.(I don't mean to be rude at all ! ) Twenty years ain't enough to contribute?

20 years but what after that? You think they should stay in the team forever because they have been in the team for 20 years. They need to continue to contribute and if they do not then it is allover. We cannot stick with them when we they are 39 and have passed their sell by date.

Exactly!! People think these are greats so they should end on a high. They should have filmy-wilmy type happy ending. This is not a film, this is real tough sports and sports rarely have happy endings. Sir Don Bradman to Saurav Ganguly to Inzammam UlHaq, nobody ended on a high. The funda remains simple in sports, you perform, you stay and if you don't perform, you will have 2 go. People will have to come out of their filmy mind-set. And even if Sachin, Dravid, Laxman wanted 2 end on a high, then they should have already known these England and Australia are our 2 main biggest tours. After these tours, they should retire. So, they should have been already looking to retire after these tours irrespective of their performances. Now, that they have failed miserably, now even legends of the game have also started calling for their retirement which is fair

[chainsmoker1985]

its not just catch.. wicket keeping imo is hardest job in cricket .. with slow reflexes body getting old (so it takes longer to recover and play again) when ur reflexes are not good enough to take catches or playy straight balls coming at stumps :winky: its time to call the day u dont need to wait for repeating mistake 20 odd times and making joke of urself!

Maybe she has no idea, how tough a job of wicket-keeper is! May be the toughest in cricket! Here

Wicket-keeping is perhaps the most thankless of all cricketing positions. One drop and you are crucified while you keep slogging day in and day out. Just one LOI game means a good 300 sets of deep ass to grass squats. Go ahead, try doing 10 of these and see how much it hurts. Now imagine these with pads on, pouncing every 2 deliveries full stretched, not knowing where next one will land etc.

posted by lurker

[Lord]

I am all for giving chance to new guys but also give proven performers chance to revive hen someone has age on his side because that guy has already proved he can play.

2 yrs is long enough rope.just because hes proved himself,we cant keep carrying him.

Yes failures are collective but still you expect your best players who are ATGs to perform and score runs.

so they r expected to score always if they are ATGs.even if the whole team is failing n team morale is down?many teams they have saved our asses when others have failed,it cant happen always.

I have no question over Dravid, but Gambhir has been as good as any opener overseas before England tour for us. His performances in NZ and SA have been good. Remember his match saving marathon inning in NZ. I do not think any other Indian batsmen has played an inning like that under pressure to save a match where they had to bat 2 days. Gambhir was highest run getter for us in CB series 2008 against better bowling attack and in tougher conditions than this time around in ODIs.

sure Gambhir has done well in NZ n SA,but now its clear he has technical issues.wen u talk about Dravid rope,u forget he didnt have technical troubles.he didnt have pattern of dismissals like GG.only now hes showing technical issues,but knowing him he'll work on that.while GG'll play on pattas in ODIs where the problems will be forgotten.

I am raising questions over SRT, RD, VVS, Viru because of their age factor and they are not gonna get better and do not make a future for Team India.

its not whether they cn get better,its obvious they r past thier peak,but are they better than youngsters?I think so,specially at home.they will get big runs n help us win.so we can use n phase them out one by one giving youngsters experience,OTOH if we drop them all n play youngsters only,they'll get pretty 50s which wont help anybody.they need to know how to score big.it easy to say we should be ready to lose,but we really dont need that

Ishant has 2 MOS in tests, has over 140 wickets and you are saying he does not know how to take wickets and that too at the age of 23. This is the age to learn and he will learn from his mistakes. How many Indian fast bowlers have 2 MOS? Regarding we did not have options then, we did not have options even now who are better than Ishant.

I dunno about MOS,but I dont think anybody averaged 38 after 45 tests n still wasnt dropped,even Zak was wen he went to Worcestershire to find form.Ishant needs to do something similar.as far as options,I already gave u enough names like Dinda,Aaron n Abu Nechim

[rkt.india]

2 yrs is long enough rope.just because hes proved himself' date='we cant keep carrying him.[/quote'] I do not think it is 2 years. He has good outings in SA, do not relate not scoring 100 to not performing. He may not have had 100 but he had decent scores before England series. He only failed in England and now in Aus. But that it their job if they cannot even lift team's morale with so much experience then and not scoring runs then what are they there for? They must set examples which others can follow as one of them is God and disciples will follow the God. Isn't it? Dude why someone goes out of form? Because he has developed some technical issue. It was the case with Gambhir too. Why he did not have this issue in NZ and SA.? Similar case was Dravid too, he had developed the issue of falling over, getting LBW and following the balls wide out side off. He got out in this fashion number of times even in India giving catching practice in the slip. Tsotsobe had turned him into his bunny on SA tour, Jhonson did the same. It will be too late. The process you are talking about should have been started 2 years back but now it is too late. I do not think they can survive now and I suspect they will be scoring even in India against a good bowling attack like England. With this process, by the time, we bring youngsters, we will have SA tour and we cannot throw 1-2 test experienced guys there. We need to play likes of Pujara, Rohit, and Rahane, etc against England. Zak was dropped primarily because of his work ethics and he was bowling ineffective, his pace had gone down to 120s, had gained a lot of weight, but these all are not the case with Ishant. His morale is up, not work ethic problem, no slow down in pace, etc. It is just technical issue with him which is seam position and I am sure he will work on it in the break he has now. He is already not playing ODIs and we are not gonna play tests next 6 months.

[Raghav_12]

I do not think it is 2 years. He has good outings in SA' date= do not relate not scoring 100 to not performing. He may not have had 100 but he had decent scores before England series. He only failed in England and now in Aus. But that it their job if they cannot even lift team's morale with so much experience then and not scoring runs then what are they there for? They must set examples which others can follow as one of them is God and disciples will follow the God. Isn't it? Dude why someone goes out of form? Because he has developed some technical issue. It was the case with Gambhir too. Why he did not have this issue in NZ and SA.? Similar case was Dravid too, he had developed the issue of falling over, getting LBW and following the balls wide out side off. He got out in this fashion number of times even in India giving catching practice in the slip. Tsotsobe had turned him into his bunny on SA tour, Jhonson did the same. It will be too late. The process you are talking about should have been started 2 years back but now it is too late. I do not think they can survive now and I suspect they will be scoring even in India against a good bowling attack like England. With this process, by the time, we bring youngsters, we will have SA tour and we cannot throw 1-2 test experienced guys there. We need to play likes of Pujara, Rohit, and Rahane, etc against England. Zak was dropped primarily because of his work ethics and he was bowling ineffective, his pace had gone down to 120s, had gained a lot of weight, but these all are not the case with Ishant. His morale is up, not work ethic problem, no slow down in pace, etc. It is just technical issue with him which is seam position and I am sure he will work on it in the break he has now. He is already not playing ODIs and we are not gonna play tests next 6 months.

What double standards rkt? Not even as far as one year ago,Sachin was within top 3 batsmen in test ranking, every single of his series in previous three years had been prolific (Australia -home and away, SA, NZ, Eng etc) and he had outscored every single Indian batsmen in WC 2011 by huge margin and you think, to that person one year very long rope and should be called selfish. On the other hand, the player (Gambhir) who was already under scrutiny at the same time an year ago, because of below par performances in previous one year, and had another very patchy year in test matches, and you think that player hasn't been given long enough rope. Let's have some rationality without letting it hampered by herd mentality and choice of personal preferences.

[chainsmoker1985]

I don't understand why there so long arguments going on. The more you r going think and argue, the more confusion will create. The answer is simple and straight. These ATGs have served their country pretty well for such a long period of time. Now, it is time for them to retire and time to groom our youngsters who will next time be touring SA, England and Australia starting from 2014. These ATGs themselves say that they won't be touring next time abroad. So, its better to give youngsters chances in home series who can play and secure their places. Rather if these ATGs continues to play in home series and retires before away tours then next time, we tour abroad, we will still be sorting out our final 11s which will be ridiculous. So its plain and simple, its time for ATGs to go.

[Raghav_12]

I don't understand why there so long arguments going on. The more you r going think and argue, the more confusion will create. The answer is simple and straight. These ATGs have served their country pretty well for such a long period of time. Now, it is time for them to retire and time to groom our youngsters who will next time be touring SA, England and Australia starting from 2014. These ATGs themselves say that they won't be touring next time abroad. So, its better to give youngsters chances in home series who can play and secure their places. Rather if these ATGs continues to play in home series and retires before away tours then next time, we tour abroad, we will still be sorting out our final 11s which will be ridiculous. So its plain and simple, its time for ATGs to go.

It doesn't become so simple because you said so. All but one of India recent ATG's made their test debut on tough foreign tours. Ganguly and Dravid (England), Sachin - Pakistan, Sehwag - SA, Kumble - England. For technical matters even Zaheer made debut on away tour, Bangladesh. Only VVS made his debut in India but he also made his name through Sydney innings in 99-00. Why do you think this new generation should be handled with cotton gloves and should be groomed and nurtured before they go on to foreign tours?

[chainsmoker1985]

It doesn't become so simple because you said so. All but one of India recent ATG's made their test debut on tough foreign tours. Ganguly and Dravid (England), Sachin - Pakistan, Sehwag - SA, Kumble - England. For technical matters even Zaheer made debut on away tour, Bangladesh. Only VVS made his debut in India but he also made his name through Sydney innings in 99-00. Why do you think this new generation should be handled with cotton gloves and should be groomed and nurtured before they go on to foreign tours?

OK. I understand your point and I believe that these were one in a billion type of players which you will find once in a decade or two. Thats y this was the golden era of Indian cricket when we have had so many greats. But, that doesn't mean that now every young player will have to score century or take a 4-fer on his debut series. Otherwise, he'd be rejected. Its not like that. And I don't want a team of great players, I want a winning team. These days, the process is like this- the selectors and team management recognizes the talent and then they want to give him a complete run. Look at Virat and Rohit. They were recognized as the future of Indian batting and they both were persisted with. As a result, they both are delivering the goods. Look at the example of Viany Kumar(although I don't like him at all) but he was given opportunity in 2010 against Australia in home series and on Zimbabwe tour. And selectors persisted with him. And secondly, Virat would have been dropped after Sydney test due to his failures. He took some time to get settled, but when he got settled, he started scoring loads of runs. So,my point is, players can take some time to settle down, even the most talented players can take some time to settle down. And selectors and our team managements are willing to give them time.

[rkt.india]

What double standards rkt? Not even as far as one year ago,Sachin was within top 3 batsmen in test ranking, every single of his series in previous three years had been prolific (Australia -home and away, SA, NZ, Eng etc) and he had outscored every single Indian batsmen in WC 2011 by huge margin and you think to that person one year very long rope and should be called selfish. On the other hand, the player (Gambhir) who was already under scrutiny at the same time an year ago, because of below par performances in previous one year, had another very patchy year in test matches, and you think that player hasn't been given long enough rope. Let's have some rationality without letting it hampered by herd mentality and choice of personal preferences.

Why it is double standards? Gambhir is not even a talk here. He may or not be dropped that is another issue. Here we are talking about a guy who is 30 years old, Gambhir, and we cannot compare him to others. He can be dropped too if he does not perform. If SRT or RD or VVS were 30 and were going through a bad patch, I would have said the same as I am saying about Gambhir. At 39, they are not going to do any good for us even if they are in good form, but now as they are not in good form and we are losing, they are actually harming the team's interest and favor. If we are to lose with these ATG guys, why cannot we play guys who can learn and improve even with these loses. Adelaide test was perfect example to take it. Tell me one thing why selectors chose extra players and replacements in the team, like we had in Rohit and Rahane? So that if main players fail, these guys can come in and give others rest, but this team management did not have an inch of thoughts going into selection. Sehwag, Gambhir, RD, VVS, SRT were failing every match, still we played same top 5 even in last test when were sure we cannot even draw series and it was a good time to bring Rohit and Rahane and on a good pitch and ouur maharathies failed even on a batting paradise. There is not persona preferences here. I am not talking about just one player. I am talking about all 4 ATGs including Sehwag. You could talk about personal preferences if would have been naming one guy in my every post, but I am talking about all 4.

[rkt.india]

It doesn't become so simple because you said so. All but one of India recent ATG's made their test debut on tough foreign tours. Ganguly and Dravid (England), Sachin - Pakistan, Sehwag - SA, Kumble - England. For technical matters even Zaheer made debut on away tour, Bangladesh. Only VVS made his debut in India but he also made his name through Sydney innings in 99-00. Why do you think this new generation should be handled with cotton gloves and should be groomed and nurtured before they go on to foreign tours?

Why do you think we should let these ATGs play? Do you know VVS made his test debut in in 1996-1997 and how much time he took to establish himself.

[Laaloo]

Pretty selfish innings there by Boucher Coming in with a lead of 310 and then only making 34 runs off of 70 balls when acceleration was required. I'm hoping some of the "sane" posters in this thread notices it :winky:

[rkt.india]

Pretty selfish innings there by Boucher Coming in with a lead of 310 and then only making 34 runs off of 70 balls when acceleration was required. I'm hoping some of the "sane" posters in this thread notices it :winky:

This is test match, not one day, lot of time left.

[Laaloo]

This is test match' date=' not one day, lot of time left.[/quote'] There is rain forecast for today and for most of the day tomorrow. And I know it's a test match but from someone in that position, you wouldn't expect 34 runs from 70 balls.

[gaurav92]

Agree with Laaloo here, should have scored more freely as it was his last game and given that they already had a decent lead of 310 - could have easily score a 50-60

[rkt.india]

Agree with Laaloo here' date=' should have scored more freely as it was his last game and given that they already had a decent lead of 310 - could have easily score a 50-60[/quote'] Bro..Do you think he would have been retiring if he had the ability left in him to score quick runs in a test match, let alone quick runs, even scoring some runs. He has not been scoring even slow runs in tests and you expecting him to score quick runs.

[gaurav92]

^Trying is always an option rather than signing off selfishly just to have some runs in the bag in the last game :P