Bal Thackeray passes away

[CSK Fan]

Don't know what Mariyam meant exactly there, but what I read in her post was "what Thackrey ordered during riots". It was not "Thackrey ordered riots" as you supposed to have understood. What I know from reports etc, that Sena was definitely complicit in those riots, as "instigator" or as "propogator" may be debatable.

Since Shiv Saniks and Kar Sevaks were sent to Babri to demolish the mosque, they definitely were instigators too

[rageaddict]

MUMBAI: The ashes of late Shiv Sena supremo Bal Thackeray were today immersed in the Arabian Sea by his son and party executive president Uddhav Thackeray. Maharashtra Navnirman Sena (MNS) president and Bal Thackeray's nephew Raj Thackeray was also present at the Gateway of India, where the family had gathered to immerse the ashes. The 86-year-old Sena patriarch died on November 18 at his residence Matoshree after a prolonged illness. http://m.timesofindia.com/city/mumbai/Bal-Thackerays-ashes-immersed-in-Arabian-Sea/articleshow/17334760.cms RIP

[Mariyam]

From the personal accounts that I have heard, if the Shiv Sena people had not fought off the muslim rioters a lot of innocent Hindus/Christians would have been slaughtered. And remember it was not the Shiv Sena who started the riots, it was the muslims who started violent protests and damaging temples etc, because of a structure brought down 1500 km away in UP. The role of Thackeray during the riots may be far from blameless but to lay the blame of the riots on him is wrong.

Seedhi, I've never said that Bal Thakrey started the riots. The sentence you've quoted doesn't imply that at all. Yes, the Shiv Sena have saved a lot of non Muslims from Muslim thugs, but they didn't just stop there. Did they? They also massacred a lot of Muslims who had absolutely nothing to do with the riots. Madhukar Sarpotdar, the now deceased Sena MP, was caught on tape saying that it is ok to respond to violent attacks by Muslims in one part of the city by attacking random Muslims and their properties in other parts of the city. When the journalist probed further, he admitted that the order came from 'higher ups'. And what makes you think I wouldn't denounce those Muslims who started the riots in Mumbai. Absolutely denounce those mobs too. I wouldn't call such people saviors of Mumbai/ heroes,wouldn't want their bodies wrapped in the national flag and wouldn't want a state sponsored funeral for them either. Though you may think otherwise, I don't think I'm being biased at all.

[Sarkar]

Seedhi' date=' I've [b']never said that Bal Thakrey started the riots. The sentence you've quoted doesn't imply that at all. Yes, the Shiv Sena have saved a lot of non Muslims from Muslim thugs, but they didn't just stop there. Did they? They also massacred a lot of Muslims who had absolutely nothing to do with the riots. Madhukar Sarpotdar, the now deceased Sena MP, was caught on tape saying that it is ok to respond to violent attacks by Muslims in one part of the city by attacking random Muslims and their properties in other parts of the city. When the journalist probed further, he admitted that the order came from 'higher ups'. And what makes you think I wouldn't denounce those Muslims who started the riots in Mumbai. Absolutely denounce those mobs too. I wouldn't call such people saviors of Mumbai/ heroes,wouldn't want their bodies wrapped in the national flag and wouldn't want a state sponsored funeral for them either. Though you may think otherwise, I don't think I'm being biased at all.

Of course your being biased at all what are you trying to prove here that Hindus started the riots we know for fact it wasnt started by Hindus whether you like it or dont Bal thackeray is a hero of Hindus. And guys who are writing that it was Shiv Sainiks who started the riots get your facts just because Thackeray said something about Northies Southies in past doesnt mean you can post false information .

[Crookbond]

Can someone please stop this incessant trolling please?!

[Sarkar]

Sarkar says PVNS was the "architect of reforms".

I meant the main person was PVNS not Maun Maun Singh i cant think of any contribution by Maun Maun apart from keepiing quiet.

[Sarkar]

Can someone please stop this incessant trolling please?!

Just because you dont like him you cant post false information go get a job in congress party you will make a good leader might get some votes .

[Manny_Pacquiao]

the response to this scumbag's death is even worse than what followed after that pedophile sai baba died. so third world. india is a joke of a country, and will remain that way for a long time.

[seedhi]

.

[seedhi]

Srikrishna Commission report- The Report asserted that the communal passions of the Hindus were aroused to fever pitch by the inciting writings in print media, particularly Saamna and Navaakal which gave exaggerated accounts of the Mathadi murders and the Radhabai Chawl incident; rumours were floated that there were imminent attacks by Muslims using sophisticated arms, though the possibility of it happening was very imminent. From 8 January 1993, many riots occured between Hindus led by the Shiv Sena and Shiv Sainiks and the Muslims funded by the Mumbai underworld at that time. The communal violence and rioting triggered off by the burning at Dongri and Radhabhai Chawl and then the retaliatory violence by Shiv Sena was hijacked by local criminal elements who saw in it an opportunity to make quick gains. By the time the Shiv Sena realized that enough had been done by way of "retaliation", the violence and rioting was beyond the control of its leaders who had to issue an appeal to put an end to it.[3]

The events as listed by the Srikrishna Commission 6 December 1992 News of demolition of Babri Masjid spread by 1430 hours on 6 December 1992. The cry of danger to Islam was reverberated in the air by hotheaded Islamists. The Muslim extremists seized this opportunity to aggressively propagate that Islam was in imminent danger since proponents of the Hindu nation had been allowed to destroy, under the very nose of the armed forces, the Babri Masjid, despite assurances and undertakings by the Uttar Pradesh state Government and the Government of India that no harm would be permitted to be caused to the Babri Masjid during kar seva at Ayodhya on 6 December 1992. The repeated media coverage, particularly on television, of footage of file pictures of previous kar seva during which some of the kar sevaks were seen dancing on the dome of the Masjid, as well as the latest video shots showing actual demolition of the Babri Masjid, caused a sense of deep resentment. The demolition of the Babri Masjid provided enough fuel to excite, ignite and exploit the sentimentalities of Islamists. Muslims were proselytized by these exploitative elements that the Establishment and the Government had an active hand in the destruction, since it was not able to prevent the same. Rumours abounded that alleged members of certain Hindutva parties were seen to be celebrating the demolition of Babri structure. Muslims protested violently on the streets. Large number of Muslims congregated near Minara Masjid in Pydhonie jurisdiction at about 2320 hours on 6 December 1992 and came out protesting frenziedly. The first targets of the rioting mob became the municipal vans and the constabulary, both visible signs of the government. Activists of Bharatiya Janata Party and Shiv Sena jumped into the fray, and escalated communal passion, as seen from their act of stopping the vehicles on roads in the jurisdiction of V.P. Road Police Station. In Nirmal Nagar jurisdiction, a Ganesh idol in the Ganesh Mandir on Anant Kanekar Marg was found decapitated and moved out from its place of installation though the lock on the grill surrounding the sanctum sanctorum was found intact. This was noticed at about 2345 hours. Though at the time the incident happened there were no immediate clues as to the identity of the miscreants, it was widely suspected that Muslims fanatics were behind it. In the jurisdiction of Deonar, there was a sharp counterËÓeaction by Muslims who stoned the house of a local Bharatiya Janata Party leader. The situation was getting uglier with attacks on Hindu temples in this area. 7 December 1992 From 7 December 1992 onwards there was a qualitative transformation in the situation. Large mobs of Muslims came on the streets and there was recourse taken to violence without doubt. The Muslim mobs appeared to have come out with the intention of mounting violent attacks as noticed from their preparedness with weapons of offence. There were violent attacks on the policemen in Muslim dominated areas like Bhendi Bazar and its vicinity. The jurisdictional areas affected were mostly Muslim dominated or mixed localities. The situation further worsened when Hindu youths confronted the rioting Musilims, leading to a situation where the police found it difficult to restrain both sections; when the police did it by force, the police came to be attacked by both Hindu and Muslim mobs. By this time the protest had degenerated into a fullËÔcale communal riot between Hindus and Muslims. Eleven temples in different jurisdictions were damaged, demolished or set on fire. The Hindus did not fall behind and damaged mosques and madrassas in different jurisdictions. BEST buses in the Bombay Central Bus Depot and BEST bus stops became easy targets for the Muslim mobs and were damaged and/or set on fire. Two Constables in Deonar jurisdiction were killed with choppers and swords by the rampaging Muslims. While one lay on the ground bleeding to death, the body of another was dragged and thrown into the garbage heap from where it was recovered seven days later. One constable was done to death in Byculla jurisdiction. Several police officers and policemen who bravely attempted to stem the tide sustained injuries in mob action. In Mahim, two police personnel, HC Zarande of Crime Branch, CID, and Police Sub˪nspector Salunke of Juhu Police Station, were proceeding on a motorcycle when attacked by a Muslim mob of 400?00 with sodaËØater bottles and stones, resulting in injuries to them. The area around L.J. Road and nearby roads were strewn with shattered glass and stones with riotous Muslim mobs running around shouting "Allah-hu-Akbar" and allegedly "Has ke liye Pakistan, Chhin ke lenge Hindustan", and indiscriminately throwing stones in Kapad Bazar. To maintain law and order, police resorted to firing which resulted in injuries to two Muslims. Seven police personnel were injured in the riot and the motorcycle was completely damaged. Jogeshwari area, which has been the hotbed of frequent communal riots saw serious riots at the junction of Pascal Colony and Shankar Wadi. A police officer on duty received a bullet injury in his head and died subsequently, though it cannot be said with certitude that it was a case of private firing. The police recovered large number of iron rods, sickles, choppers, knives and soda water bottles from different jurisdictions indicating that there was intention and preparations to carry on the communal riots. A violent Muslim mob ransacked a Police chowky at Maulana Shaukat Ali Road and physically assaulted one Police Constable, Pandit Malhari Ahire. Ahire was attacked with swords and choppers and suffered grievous injuries. According to Ahire the frenzied mob was about 500?00 strong and was carrying swords and choppers and the utterings of the people showed that they were bent upon taking revenge for damage to Babri Masjid. The mob appeared to be in a mood to finish off the victim, as the people in the mob were shouting that he should be killed. At about the same time a huge Muslim mob of about 4,000?,000 collected on Maulana Shaukat Ali Road and in the lanes and byeËÃanes of the area. The mob went on damaging and destroying the vehicles and public property and indulged in indiscriminate stone throwing. AhireÃÔ life was saved by prompt action by Senior Police Inspector Pawar along with other officers who carried on firing to restore peace.

It should also be noted how the muslim mobs sytematically assaulted the policemen as well. Those who claim that the police were soft on muslims fail to point out that the muslims first picked up a fight against them.

[seedhi]

Since Shiv Saniks and Kar Sevaks were sent to Babri to demolish the mosque' date=' they definitely were instigators too[/quote']It wasnt a mosque, it was a functioning temple.

[surajmal]

Surajmal, with all due respect, you are completely over playing Bal Thakrey's efforts against Communism. For one, Bal Thakrey wasn't against the ideology. To be the leader of a party with a strong base of people who are from the working classes, you have to be pro worker. It was the existing Labour union leaders whom BT was against and eliminated. He later usurped their position and continued doing the same that they were doing: black mailing the government with threats. Why is he different or better? One thing that favoued Bal Thakrey was that in his formative years, the mills were getting automated and people were losing jobs. The mill owners being outsiders (read: non Maharashtrains) were an obvious targets. To make matters worse, the owners were aligned with the existing government. It was this disgruntled mass of workers that BT exploited. The only difference between BT, and the previous set of Union leaders was that BT won over and convinced the industry owners to be pro-worker; mainly through intimidation and later supported the owners and didn't let them shut shop even though they were sick units. It is these people who have financed the Sena all over the years.

That may seem like BT playing a double game but it is really not (well it is but out of necessity) if you consider how BT's Inspiration Shivaji operated. Shivaji perfect Guerrilla/Asymmetric warfare precisely to combat a force much larger than himself. In BT's context, he was a just cartoonist. If he was going to champion the cause for Martha Pride, he couldn't have done that by just drawing silly cartoons out of a 10x10 room. Name of the game is power and he took the necessary steps to get into a position where he has several thousand people at his beck and call. And he played both sides. Congress may have had its qualms but couldn't have been seen combating communism openly because of India's close relations Russia (also KGB had sufficiently bought off Indira Gandhi's administration so at the national level congress wasn't going to do anything about the problem. So if Regional Satraps had an itch they had do deal with it discretely), so BT leveraged that into pushing out the commies even if he replaced them with trade unions consisting of lower middle class Marathis. His actions basically didn't leave commies any room to breathe in Bombay area even. It is irrelevant if they are deemed selfish. He was a opportunist. That is why I laugh when people look towards him as some nationalist Hindutva leader. He was a regional leader at best and I don't think he possessed any designs for Pan India Influence. Hell even if did I don't think had the intellectual capacity (In the kumar ketkar column - http://forbesindia.com/article/special/bal-thackerays-fractured-legacy/34151/1, his historical knowledge is limited to Shivaji and Hitler)

To put things in perspective: If Bal Thakrey was so effective in suppressing Communists and Communism, as you say, how could Datta Samant call for a mill workers strike in Mumbai in 1982 in which nearly 3 lakh people participated?

Did the strike yield anything for the workers? No. So BT succeeded in sufficiently creating an environment where Factory owners don't have to feel the heat of the unions.

As an owner of a manufacturing set up, I would say that BT's legacy was that he was pro worker- as long as they were Maharashtrian. Remember that scheme he wanted to introduce- if no domicile certificate- health cover would be minumum or something on those lines and he was pro owner. At the same time, he wasn't really pro-industry. That has however, hampered competition and been the bane of manufcaturing in Mumbai. Its the satellite towns like Bhiwandi and Nashik and Gujarat which was have picked up ( as a result of this among many other things) as new centres of Manufacturing.

Manufacturing moved out but Finance and Tech moved in. Bombay is India's New York even if it isn't at New York's level yet. In 20 years when Shiv Sena could be finished (or not) but we will all be glad that the germ of Communism was destroyed at its inception because Calcutta would still be the same shithole that it is now (which is a tragedy because Calcutta was supposed to be the star metro of India except commies made it a joke).

was also openly pro Octroi, and when his government was in power he actually wanted it increased. :D Mahrashtra is the only state that charges an Octroi now. Why would a manufacturer set shop in Mumbai in these conditions? Note: The Congress have also been pro Octroi, but their statements are generally- we will stop in in the next term etc.

Well they needed money to fix the creaking infrastructure of Bombay that Congress still hasn't fixed. Considering the amount of tax Bombay generates for ROI let alone Maharashtra, it is a disgrace.

You also claim that he saved Mumbai from the 'Mullah gangs'. Yes, he did fight against gangsters. Instead of the Muslims and the Shettys who would extort business houses, it was the Thakrey's and the Rane's who did so post 95. And, he was excessively harsh on Muslim businesses. He used to harass them for extortion money or threaten them with some cooked up violations and force them to shut shop. This was for a while he was in power, until he was reigned in by the Centre. One good thing is that the police under his rule cleaned up the underworld. That is something many people, Muslims included admire, because it was those very localities from where these guys emerged which suffered first. All this aside, what he ordered during the riots was absolutely not justifiable. Not saying this as a Muslim, but saying it trying to be as unbiased as possible. All in all, BT has done some good, no doubt, but you are oversimplifying the situation and claiming him to be some sort of a national hero when he wasn't.

Again I don't think he had any Hindu chauvinistic designs. He was an opportunist. I read somewhere that he actually reached an understanding with the remnants of the underworld out of mutual fear/respect after he had sufficiently curtailed their operations. His primary objectives was power and Marathi Pride (which was more important is moot). So if you look at the riots through that lens, it was an exercise in authority. Just trying to prove, especially to the Muslim gang lords, that there is a new sheriff in town.

[BeautifulGame]

@Sri you dont represent all southies too because Bala Saheb has supporters from South eg Rajnikanth and good thing about bala saheb he always spoke for hindutva unity and spoke against terrorist activities of PAKISTAN in India.

RajiniKanth is a Marathi actually :giggle:

[flamy]

Just to put things in perspective' date=' please also note that Thackray however, staying in Mumbai, never had the guts to speak against Mariyam.[/quote'] :haha::haha:

[Tiger80]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Cremation-site-of-Bal-Thackeray-similar-to-Ayodhya-Shiv-Sena-says/articleshow/17389238.cms Cremation site of Bal Thackeray similar to Ayodhya, Shiv Sena says MUMBAI: Shiv Sena today said the place where Sena supremo Bal Thackeray's last rites were conducted was similar to Ayodhya. "The place where Balasaheb's last rites were conducted at the Shivaji Park is similar to Ayodhya. The sanctity of the place should be maintained. It is like a temple for us and we won't remove the structure that has come up at the cremation site," Sanjy Raut told reporters here. He also asked the government and court not to intervene in the issue. "The government and court should not come in between," he added. "Its sanctity is similar to Ayodhya. We are not calling it a memorial. But we want the memorial at the Shivaji Park," Raut said. Senior party leader Manohar Joshi first made the demand for the memorial of Bal Thackeray at Shivaji Park, soon after Thackeray was cremated. The Sena patriarch died on 17th of this month at his 'Matoshree' residence.

:hysterical:

[Trichromatic]

:facepalm:

[BeautifulGame]

:hysterical:

[Crookbond]

:facepalm:

[nikred]

no comments. :nervous:

[cybervickey]

WOW !