Who was the best allrounder after Sir Gary Sobers?

[Trichromatic]

^ How many times we see SA bowling lacking in depth when Kallis doesn't bowl? Like I said earlier that you can't compare batting of bowling all-rounders with bowling of batting all-rounders. When batsmen are on the crease, you can't just wait* and let them score as they will consistently add runs. But with bowlers, you can just and let them complete their spell. * I agree that those players had fear factor and even though they could play waiting game, they tried to change the game more by attacking batting rather than grinding. Botham, Kapil or Imran.

[Lurker]

^ How many times we see SA bowling lacking in depth when Kallis doesn't bowl? Like I said earlier that you can't compare batting of bowling all-rounders with bowling of batting all-rounders. When batsmen are on the crease' date=' you can't just wait* and let them score as they will consistently add runs. [b']But with bowlers, you can just and let them complete their spell. * I agree that those players had fear factor and even though they could play waiting game, they tried to change the game more by attacking batting rather than grinding. Botham, Kapil or Imran.

I suppose that is one way to look at it. The other way is to look at these players and realize that Kallis never had any kind of pressure to deliver when it comes to bowling. He neither has to bowl as much or have the pressure to take wickets. All-rounders like Kapil, Botham, Hadlee, Sobers they ALL bowl more than 20 overs per innings (122 for Kapil, 129 for Botham, 149 for Hadlee and 135 for Sobers). Imran's lopsided because he didnt bowl in many Tests towards the end and still manages 137 deliveries per innings. Kallis comes in at 75. Considering fast/medium pace bowling takes a lot of effort, an extra 50 deliveries per innings takes a whole lot more toll on your body and hence Kallis can also thank Donald, Steyn, Pollock etc for letting him deliver more on batting side. Again, not deriding Kallis. He is an all time great. It has been a previlige to see him play. But as a bowler he is hardly anybody I would consider as half decent all-rounder. :hatsoff:

[The Outsider]

60 bowlers have taken 200 plus wickets in Test cricket till date http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/93276.html The worst bowlers in terms of innings taken for 5 wicket hauls? Flintoff and Kallis. Absolute worst? Kallis. Greatest all-rounder :giggle:

I didn't feel like going on stats guru to get the exact numbers, but I am sure there are plenty batsmen who've got 4000-6000+ runs and Kallis is in the top notch of averages there.

[The Outsider]

The stupidity of comparing batting all rounders with bowling all rounders never ends. :wall:

[Lurker]

The stupidity of comparing batting all rounders with bowling all rounders never ends. :wall:

lol..True. But that's the whole romance of cricket surely. :agree:

[The Outsider]

Jacque Kallis is a statistician delight, not a cricket fan's. I am yet to meet a cricket fan who ever gets up in the middle of the night to see Kallis bat, and batting is his stronger suit. A 5 wicket return every 50 or innings (260 innings bowled, 5 fifer)??? Greatest all-rounder my *****.

Botham with 1 century very 12 innings or Imran with one every 21 innings or Kapil with one every 15 innings or with Hadlee every 67 innings would make the cut.

[Lurker]

Botham with 1 century very 12 innings or Imran with one every 21 innings or Kapil with one every 15 innings or with Hadlee every 67 innings would make the cut.

Hadlee won't make the cut surely. One more reason why I do not consider him in the same league as Kapil-Imran-Botham. But the other three's record (12, 15, 21) is not that different from many of the leading batsmen. Tendulkar, for example, scores one every 6.2 innings, Border at almost 10, Dravid at 8, Gavaskar at 6, Richards at 7). So a Botham and Kapil took almost twice the number of innings for a 100, than a regular batsmen. Imran three times that. On the other hand, a lead bowler takes 5-10 innings to get a Fifer (Hadlee has at 4, Kapil has at 10, Mcgrath 8, Warne 7). Kallis has one fifer every 50 odd innings!! In other words he takes 5 times, or even more than that. I know it is all numbers, and I hate statistical comparisons you know that, but if you look up it probably shows why Kallis as a bowler is so far removed from lead bowlers than the lead all-rounders who were not so much from top batsmen.

[maniac]

Since when has the fear factor played an important role to judge an all rounder......if that is the case from what I have heard....sobers wasn't a fearsome bowler either If people here question kallis's legacy not taking his stats into account than,we must question sobers too.....btw imran,kapil and botham for me should always be the benchmark and not sobers just by the sheer impact they had on their respective teams. Conclusion....if sobers is the benchmark than yes kallis is the best all rounder ever since sobers

[Lurker]

Since when has the fear factor played an important role to judge an all rounder......if that is the case from what I have heard....sobers wasn't a fearsome bowler either If people here question kallis's legacy not taking his stats into account than,we must question sobers too.....btw imran,kapil and botham for me should always be the benchmark and not sobers just by the sheer impact they had on their respective teams. Conclusion....if sobers is the benchmark than yes kallis is the best all rounder ever since sobers

You should probably check that with Dennis Lilee about Sobers fearsomeness then. :giggle: Seriously though, sure by all means question Sobers credentials as a bowler as well. Between Sobers and Kallis, Kallis takes 5 wickets every 52 innings, Sobers does it at 26. Do your math :cantstop: By the way many experts who have actually seen Sobers bat consider him the greatest batsman. better than Richards, Gavaskar, SRT, Lara. Kallis was never considered the greatest batsman of his generation let alone post Sobers era. It is only when Lara retired, SRT pooped and Ponting bombed that Kallis is now considered what he is as a batsman....:agree:

[vvvslaxman]

Fielding is another important factor i would include while rating an all rounder. Kapil was a fantastic all round fielder. You can put him anywhere on the ground.

[gaurav92]

Kallis

[Lurker]

Fielding is another important factor i would include while rating an all rounder. Kapil was a fantastic all round fielder. You can put him anywhere on the ground.

Oh yeah absolutely. That criteria goes against Imran. Kapil was terrific, Sobers was outstanding, Botham is considered one of the all time greats in slips. There is also the small matter of running between wickets. Typically you expect good fielders - Rhodes, Ponting, Symonds, Kaif, Azhar for example - to be really good between wickets too. Kapil was oustanding. he was never once run out in Test cricket which must be a record of sorts and tells the story in itself.

[MCcricket]

The biggest problem with allrounders is fitness, for sheer longetivity, technique, game, adaptability, batting stats better then Tendulkar, bowling when he is as good as any one, Kallis is the best allrounder I have seen, Sobers is the only one who stands alongside as he also bowled spin very well and was a left hander to boot and has very good stats bowling and batting wise and players who have played with him talk very very highly of him. Recently Kallis, Flintoff, Watson are class allrounders I have seen but except for Kallis others were not fit most times to do both effectively also Watto being very talented is more a batting allrounder and bowls medium pace, among Kapil, Botham, Imran, Hadlee, only Kapil and Botham were true allrounders, Kapil was very talented , but none could be selected in the team solely as a batter or bowler both on merit, Kaliis, Sobers, Waston can be. Irfan is the best allrounder we have seen in India after Kapil, he seems to have regained form and can be very good for India in all formats .

[Sidhoni]

Kallis, any day. Infact I rate him higher than Sobers. My personal favorite might be Dravid and many others but Kallis is easily the best player to play the game!!!

Completely agreed.

[The Outsider]

Hadlee won't make the cut surely. One more reason why I do not consider him in the same league as Kapil-Imran-Botham. But the other three's record (12, 15, 21) is not that different from many of the leading batsmen. Tendulkar, for example, scores one every 6.2 innings, Border at almost 10, Dravid at 8, Gavaskar at 6, Richards at 7). So a Botham and Kapil took almost twice the number of innings for a 100, than a regular batsmen. Imran three times that. On the other hand, a lead bowler takes 5-10 innings to get a Fifer (Hadlee has at 4, Kapil has at 10, Mcgrath 8, Warne 7). Kallis has one fifer every 50 odd innings!! In other words he takes 5 times, or even more than that. I know it is all numbers, and I hate statistical comparisons you know that, but if you look up it probably shows why Kallis as a bowler is so far removed from lead bowlers than the lead all-rounders who were not so much from top batsmen.

Kallis has been part of a very good bowling attack throughout his career. And given his immense value as a batsman has never been used as a front line bowling option, but as a support bowler. So, obviously he would not pick up too many five wicket hauls. However, during the years when he was at the top of his bowling game he was a very good bowler and could have easily opened the bowling attack for teams like India and Sri Lanka. Quite obviously it's different in batting and there is no limited 20 wickets to divide among the bowlers.

[The Outsider]

The biggest problem with allrounders is fitness, for sheer longetivity, technique, game, adaptability, batting stats better then Tendulkar, bowling when he is as good as any one, Kallis is the best allrounder I have seen, Sobers is the only one who stands alongside as he also bowled spin very well and was a left hander to boot and has very good stats bowling and batting wise and players who have played with him talk very very highly of him. Recently Kallis, Flintoff, Watson are class allrounders I have seen but except for Kallis others were not fit most times to do both effectively also Watto being very talented is more a batting allrounder and bowls medium pace, among Kapil, Botham, Imran, Hadlee, only Kapil and Botham were true allrounders, Kapil was very talented , but none could be selected in the team solely as a batter or bowler both on merit, Kaliis, Sobers, Waston can be. Irfan is the best allrounder we have seen in India after Kapil, he seems to have regained form and can be very good for India in all formats .

Watson is a utility cricketer,not a genuine all rounder. Won't be able to get into the team as a batsman or a bowler, but as a combination he has made some good contributions.

[Lurker]

Kallis has been part of a very good bowling attack throughout his career. And given his immense value as a batsman has never been used as a front line bowling option' date= but as a support bowler. So, obviously he would not pick up too many five wicket hauls. However, during the years when he was at the top of his bowling game he was a very good bowler and could have easily opened the bowling attack for teams like India and Sri Lanka. Quite obviously it's different in batting and there is no limited 20 wickets to divide among the bowlers.

Isn't that another of those what-ifs scenario in cricket? Just because Kallis may seem like a quality bowler does not mean he would have taken wickets. It is no different to the case of say Graeme Hick who was terribly exposed at International level. Similarly had Kallis taken the full load of bowling ala Kapil Imran and Botham he would have been terribly exposed. I am happy to look at the way his numbers are today. Of the lot that has taken 200 wickets plus he is by far the worst bowler...by a distance..:bow:

[prinzo]

Kallis

[The Outsider]

Isn't that another of those what-ifs scenario in cricket? Just because Kallis may seem like a quality bowler does not mean he would have taken wickets. It is no different to the case of say Graeme Hick who was terribly exposed at International level. Similarly had Kallis taken the full load of bowling ala Kapil Imran and Botham he would have been terribly exposed. I am happy to look at the way his numbers are today. Of the lot that has taken 200 wickets plus he is by far the worst bowler...by a distance..:bow:

I thought you were not a big fan of numbers. But regardless, till around '03-'04 Kallis was more than a decent bowler. On quite a few occasions with the likes of Donald, Pollock, and Ntini in the attack, he did better than them, so the Hick comparison hardly holds. He had good pace, a good outswinger, and a good bouncer. Certainly all the basic ingredients to be a more successful bowler than he turned out to be if he was not playing in such a strong attack and his batting was more important to the team. Wouldn't Kapil, Imran, and Botham be exposed if they were to bat in the top 4? All had the basic ingredients to be very good batsmen, but obviously their role as bowlers was more important and they were never required to bat in the top 4. Among batsmen with more than 5000 runs, Botham and Kapil would come pretty close to the bottom of the pile. And Imran doesn't even have 5000 test runs.

[Trichromatic]

Among batsmen with more than 5000 runs' date=' Botham and Kapil would come pretty close to the bottom of the pile. And Imran doesn't even have 5000 test runs.[/quote'] :agree: