Dumbbells Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 I am sorry for this post. I was immature.
Tapioca Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 He will be eventually charged with rape. There is no section in India law to punish a person for breaking a promise of marriage. This was done with her consent. Is that still rape ?
DomainK Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 This was done with her consent. Is that still rape ? Even if it was done with her consent, the law questions the validity of the consent. Consent obtained under false pretense is not considered valid consent. Hence, if the consent was obtained by a promise of marriage and subsequently the promise is broken, the law considers the consent to be invalid and hence the act was rape.
punjabi_khota Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Have there been any convictions under this clause so far? ANyone got stats power ?
Lurker Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 2) Why is this law so skewed towards women? Doesnt a jilted guy go through similar emotions? Why do women need 'protection'. As usual we are laying a prize on a woman's virginity and equating a woman's life with having/not having sex. This is one of then primary reasons holding women back in Indian society It is a slippery slope mate. Not ALL women need protection, and neither do ALL women go about claiming their men fooled them either. For each case as this, I am sure there are enough cases on other side too. The laws are skewed because well these are old laws. Most likely created at a time when India was still under British rule. Men, and women, were hardly moving around, let alone fool around. I have sympathies with the Court because they can only interprete the law, not neccessarily make a new one, even if they understand the reasoning. By the by this whole "protection" thing works around the globe. And on many levels. One of my pet peeves is to walk into a gym and see those big warnings staring at you - Please do not use cellphone. This was obviously done because by popular perception men are Horny bastards who would make clips of women working out. Turns out the only people using cellphone in the gym are the women talking, while walking on treadmill for 30 minutes :hehe: The other day I was actually miffed at one such woman talking too loud while on treadmill, asked the Trainers to do something, they just shrugged with a "Cant do much". Then one of women patrons saw this and tore the cellphone girl a new one!! That was awesome. :two_thumbs_up: So there are folks of all kind, across gender. Go easy with generalization :winky:
beetle Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 Look at it from a practical viewpoint. You fall in love and want to marry a girl. You propose. She accepts. You are in a relationship now and have sex. Over the next few months/years you fall out of love. You see things about her you dont like or discover something about her. So you change your mind about marrying her. So you commited rape and should be put in jail? This happens in most relationships Completely agree with you MTC. In most affairs that end...no accusations of rape or cheating are made.How often do we see people break up and go their separate ways. Some get dumped and over time get over it. Most of these"rape" cases are where one partner is a major jerk and gets in the relationship with false promises with a premeditated intent to leave quietly.Most of these cases are where the guy isin a relationship but agrees to marry a girl of family choice keeping the girl in dark or theguy is already married and keeps the girl in the dark...or some other excuse to not marry the girl who had sex only on the condition that they would end up married. In a country like ours where the consequences for pre marital sex are not the same for both partners....a fair case of cheating,exploiting for sex can be made. Using "rape" is probably wrong not just to the guy but also to the real rape victims who have to suffer because of distrust. In most cases of consensual "rape" ...the courts do take a very lenient view.The guy does have to suffer ...but I guess the solution is not to promise sex just to get in someone pants. This does have great potential for misuse.
beetle Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 You cannot escape the reality while forming laws. Just because you think virginity or having sex before marriage should not be made a big deal out of, the reality is vastly different and the laws are there taking into account this reality. I don't think this kind of situation should be a non bailable offense of rape, but these situations need laws. It's a fact that men make false promises to get laid. It happens even in the west, so I am not saying it's a situation unique to India. But the repurcussions of that are much more in India and women need protection from situations where a false promise of marriage was made with the intent of having sex. Whether you like it or not, the society does not look very kindly upon a woman who has had premarital sex. The same is not true for a man, so there is no reason that a man and woman should have the same status as far as this law is concerned. +1
Raghav_12 Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 And what about the huge number of cases which don't get admitted at all? I know it's besides the main point, but I had to bring it up since you are talking about genuine cases. You've got to be living in some other world to not see the kind of discrimination women go through on a daily basis in India in every walk of life. Posting a few isolated cases of the law being misused does not alter the reality. You are talking about a female's word being put higher, there is a substantial number of people in our society who view a girl who had sex before marriage as a and a r@ndi. It's the same society which provides the judiciary system you think values the word of the female. You're living in some alternate reality to think that women are exploiting this or any other law on a large scale basis. I agree that huge number of cases go unreported. But that doesn't change the reality that huge number of false cases as well. Two wrongs don't make one right. Trust me I am far closer to reality of India than you are. You can find better reality by going and talking to lawyers, judge and police in India than reading some american publication. I do post isolated cases to illustrate the point, but my arguments are based on the numbers like the one I posted from an article of Pioneer. And saying that in India women are worse off than many other countries say US is absolutely wrong statement. Will not go in details of that in this thread. Bringing societal norms of India in cases like OP is hypocrisy as both partners anyways had shunned typical Indian society behavior and wouldn't give a damn to society. If you are punishing somebody because of compulsions of social norms, then punish both, as both are violating societal rules. (I am using perception of society which has been portrayed by many posters in this thread). In this case, I find it unbelievable that somebody can be in live-in relationship for 7 years just on the promise of marriage without getting involved herself. May be I am more cynical than others. I'll not go in details of if guy had actually promised marriage or was it some common understanding that both had developed? I am pretty sure police wouldn't even have bothered to check what kind of proof is there for this "promise of marriage".
Crookbond Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 In this case, I find it unbelievable that somebody can be in live-in relationship for 7 years just on the promise of marriage without getting involved herself. May be I am more cynical than others. I'll not go in details of if guy had actually promised marriage or was it some common understanding that both had developed? I am pretty sure police wouldn't even have bothered to check what kind of proof is there for this "promise of marriage". You're not the only one who's cynical here - I'm not sure how one could be a in 7-year relationship w/o "consent". It is quite crazy to suggest that "relationship break ups" require laws. I understand that the ground reality is different and have seen it close enough with my own eyes many times but this gives no license to turn a law into a lopsided boxing ring. The law must still be fair to both parties - the other arm of the law which is the police should ensure minimal friction on court. It is the job of the investigators to ensure responsible justice. The people making a case of lopsided laws is a "jugaad" solution and one which will encourage the biased societal sex preferences.
The Outsider Posted February 12, 2013 Posted February 12, 2013 I agree that huge number of cases go unreported. But that doesn't change the reality that huge number of false cases as well. Two wrongs don't make one right. Trust me I am far closer to reality of India than you are. You can find better reality by going and talking to lawyers, judge and police in India than reading some american publication. I do post isolated cases to illustrate the point, but my arguments are based on the numbers like the one I posted from an article of Pioneer. And saying that in India women are worse off than many other countries say US is absolutely wrong statement. Will not go in details of that in this thread. What makes you think that I am basing my arguments on an American publication? The fact that I quoted a source from the WSJ? I've also lived in India for a long time and visit at least once a year for a month. And it's not difficult to see the reality of discrimination against women in practically every facet of life right from the fact that the male child gets preference to go to school to how families spend years saving money for their marriage. Comparing the state of women with India to US or other western countries is ridiculous, but if you wish do start a thread on it. Bringing societal norms of India in cases like OP is hypocrisy as both partners anyways had shunned typical Indian society behavior and wouldn't give a damn to society. If you are punishing somebody because of compulsions of social norms, then punish both, as both are violating societal rules. (I am using perception of society which has been portrayed by many posters in this thread). It might be hypocrisy, but it's also a realization of reality. You cannot make utopian laws in vacuum, they have to connect with the ground realities of the society. Why would you have a law prohibiting the hunting of polar bears in Egypt? In this case, I find it unbelievable that somebody can be in live-in relationship for 7 years just on the promise of marriage without getting involved herself. May be I am more cynical than others. I'll not go in details of if guy had actually promised marriage or was it some common understanding that both had developed? I am pretty sure police wouldn't even have bothered to check what kind of proof is there for this "promise of marriage". I am not talking about this particular case. I don't even think that it should be classified as rape or a non bailable offense. My arguments are more generic in relation to the need of such a law in the society. On the surface even I don't see any merit to this particular case, but this isn't the first or last law which will be misused. Surely the solution cannot be to get rid of all laws because they are misused occasionally.
Dumbbells Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I am sorry for this post. I was immature. Edited...Sorry.
Nova Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 Edited...Sorry. I guess if someone else didn't quote your post, it must not have been so dumb. :hmmm:
Dumbbells Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I guess if someone else didn't quote your post' date=' it must not have been so dumb. :hmmm:[/quote'] Editing does not show as a new post. Had to quote myself to show I was sorry for the post..
youngindia Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 Look at it from a practical viewpoint. You fall in love and want to marry a girl. You propose. She accepts. You are in a relationship now and have sex. Over the next few months/years you fall out of love. You see things about her you dont like or discover something about her. So you change your mind about marrying her. So you commited rape and should be put in jail? This happens in most relationships r u pretending to be naive? there are plenty of cases where guys pretend to be in love . :hysterical: u r lookin at one narrow scenario.there are genuine breakups as you said. but as far as relationship ethics are cocnerned, i would not say i am impressed one bit by what i have seen in a significant number of cases. and i am someone who detests ppl backing girls for the wrong reasons with mistaken chivalry.
youngindia Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I agree that huge number of cases go unreported. But that doesn't change the reality that huge number of false cases as well. Two wrongs don't make one right. Trust me I am far closer to reality of India than you are. You can find better reality by going and talking to lawyers' date=' judge and police in India ".[/quote'] regarding word of the police/judge. the quality of the person matters and its highly variable. some of them have made fools of themselves by showcasing their chauvinistic attitudes in public. for example look at the views of the delhi policemen recently when the gangrape was coeverd recently. they were a bloody disgrace. using false cases(which may be absurdly self serviing) to over look a real prblem like rape is frankly disgraceful and dishonest. n there are other foolish ppl who take the word of the female without merit. both groups of ppl are a liability to justice.
kubrickian Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I would rather move to a country like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan than live in India which is increasingly trying to ape America, where more than 50% marriages end in divorce, teens get pregnant, kids get depressed and get addicted to drugs, alcohol and go and shoot up schools. Just because they are rich doesnt mean we need to copy these morally bankrupt people. Valentine's day is another one of those things they invented to spread their crap culture around the world.
Clarke Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I would rather move to a country like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan than live in India which is increasingly trying to ape America' date=' [b']where more than 50% marriages end in divorce, teens get pregnant, kids get depressed and get addicted to drugs, alcohol and go and shoot up schools. Just because they are rich doesnt mean we need to copy these morally bankrupt people. Valentine's day is another one of those things they invented to spread their crap culture around the world. :haha: Who said freedom guarantees stability ? Just because they value individual liberty over everything else doesn't make them losers. Its their way of life, and they don't blame evil phoren values for their social problems. There is a lot though to learn for us/them, and you can surely apply for citizenship to Afghanistan/Pakistan :two_thumbs_up:
vandokkum Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I would rather move to a country like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan than live in India which is increasingly trying to ape America, where more than 50% marriages end in divorce, teens get pregnant, kids get depressed and get addicted to drugs, alcohol and go and shoot up schools. Just because they are rich doesnt mean we need to copy these morally bankrupt people. Valentine's day is another one of those things they invented to spread their crap culture around the world. :haha: Reading your post, are you sure you are not from one of these places? If Saudi arabia was the only country in the world, we would have never gotten the internet and you would get beheaded for disagreeing with them
The Outsider Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I would rather move to a country like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan than live in India which is increasingly trying to ape America, where more than 50% marriages end in divorce, teens get pregnant, kids get depressed and get addicted to drugs, alcohol and go and shoot up schools. Just because they are rich doesnt mean we need to copy these morally bankrupt people. Valentine's day is another one of those things they invented to spread their crap culture around the world. So go and stay there. [Omkaara]Maine gotiyaan pakad rakhi hain kya teri[/Omkaara]
punjabi_khota Posted February 14, 2013 Posted February 14, 2013 I would rather move to a country like Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan than live in India which is increasingly trying to ape America, where more than 50% marriages end in divorce, teens get pregnant, kids get depressed and get addicted to drugs, alcohol and go and shoot up schools. Just because they are rich doesnt mean we need to copy these morally bankrupt people. Valentine's day is another one of those things they invented to spread their crap culture around the world. Where do you live ?
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