Border vs Taylor vs S. Waugh vs Ponting

[saneindian]

^^ An Indian captain doing the same to an Indian bowler will be called a fool, arrogant and a good for nothing guy!

[putrevus]

I would rate Waugh highest, he made Aussies into these ruthless machines who won most matches by just by their intimidating presence.He always played to win the matches.His teams took aggressive batting to another level which was never seen before. He just had two draws in 57 matches which were not rain affected.All other 5 draws under his captaincy were rain affected matches. Unlike Clive LLoyd who had the most intimidating bowlers under his sleeve, Waugh's Aussies intimidated by their aggressive in your face mental approach.He made his team into a winning machine where even Aussie public I felt were craving for some sort of competition. The matches he lost as a captain were some of the all time great matches where opposition had to come up with once in life time performances.

[Crookbond]

So how many times did Miller captain?

Irrespective of the fact the he didn't captain, he would've been an excellent captain to make Richie Benaud say - Keith Miller was the best captain Australia never had. In terms of Indian context, I would make the statement for a certain Ajay Jadeja.

[bharat297]

Mark Taylor to me is the best captain. Border was on and off ... Ponting was on and off too. Waugh ... bit hard to say. He started with a great team and finished with a great team. Waugh, more than a tactician, seemed to be more of a leader by example and in that sense he was a good captain.

[Crookbond]

Border would definitely be best among this lot. Seeminly he had taken on him to develop australian team. I recall this funny incident where he had shown his authority to Craig M'cDermott :-) On that occasion Border yelled after his paceman: Å¥onÃÕ walk away from me or youÃÍl be on the next plane home.Ǽ/I]

yUW7SsvuYu4

^^ An Indian captain doing the same to an Indian bowler will be called a fool' date=' arrogant and a good for nothing guy![/quote'] Dhoni's comment over Sreesanth "not to irritate the team but the opposition" comes to mind.

[Gambit]

Irrespective of the fact the he didn't captain' date=' he would've been an excellent captain to make Richie Benaud say - [i']Keith Miller was the best captain Australia never had. In terms of Indian context, I would make the statement for a certain Ajay Jadeja.

Right. So for you MSD is better than ABDV in tests as ABDV has kept in less than 15 games as you won't go by potential but Miller should be counted among the best captains of all time despite the fact that he's never captained in an international game. Yup, makes 100% sense.

[adi B]

magnificent record that for waugh.. border>taylor>waugh>ponting..taylor was very instinctive

[Crookbond]

Right. So for you MSD is better than ABDV in tests as ABDV has kept in less than 15 games as you won't go by potential but Miller should be counted among the best captains of all time despite the fact that he's never captained in an international game. Yup' date=' makes 100% sense.[/quote'] Ah, you're still bitten by what I wrote there? Should've stated that up front rather than a snide remark. I'm sure you are smart, intelligent and handsome so rather than using the arrogant way to prove it just ask that you wanted to be told as the GOD of posters on ICF. I confer the entitlement of "Sir" upon you and from henceforth refer to you as "Sir" Gambit. You can of course refuse like Rabindranath Tagore and then we will have a Wikipedia page for you. I thought Miller is one of the best captains in the game from what I've read of him. He didn't captain in Test matches but he did captain NSW for more than 4-5 years in the domestic season. Moreover, I never claimed Miller was the BEST captain EVER. That not forgetting if Richie Benaud makes such a flattering statement about anyone, it's very hard for me who hasn't played a Test match or a FC game to disagree. I'm sure however you have a better pedigree. Your comparison with AB DeVillier's is quite senseless because to make the exact comparison ABDV should've kept wickets for his domestic side for like 4-5 years just like Miller did. Initially, Wan Wyk was preferred (for Northern Districts) even though he wasn't that great a batsman and even currently Heino Kuhn (for Titans) dons the gloves. But, BEST WK in the world right now - sure! Unlike Miller however, the team itself is not even clear about his role as a WK neither was he a WK incumbent (by his own admission). But, still BEST WK in the world - yeah 100% sense.

[philcric]

IMO Waugh > Taylor > Ponting (haven't seen much of Border). I disagree that captain is only as good as his team. As someone mentioned before, a lot of what captaincy is all about, happens behind the close doors. And the main thing for me is the desire of achieving excellence,, and a captain has a huge role to play in that. That's why I think Waugh is better than Taylor, because he challenged his team to do some extra ordinary things like test draws not considered an option, scoring 400 runs in a day etc. A great captain has the vision, builds the team, thinks big, is ruthless, and gets absolutely everything out of each player. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind, if Waugh's team was given to Dhoni, his record would be very good but nowhere near as good as Waugh's. For starters, there would have been many more draws. Dhoni is a live in the moment kind of guy, has no sense of cricket history, and doesn't really dream big. He can at best be a decent captain, but not a great one.

[G_B_]

Dhoni would be better than waugh in the limited overs (ODIs) IMO in tests, your right waugh was a better captain. Dhoni probably would not get into the side.

[Gambit]

Ah' date=' you're still bitten by what I wrote there? Should've stated that up front rather than a snide remark. I'm sure you are smart, intelligent and handsome so rather than using the arrogant way to prove it just ask that you wanted to be told as the GOD of posters on ICF. I confer the entitlement of "Sir" upon you and from henceforth refer to you as "Sir" Gambit. You can of course refuse like Rabindranath Tagore and then we will have a Wikipedia page for you. [/quote'] Are you sure you're feeling alright or are you always this deferential? I am sure he was a contender in the 'best in never been captain' category just as SKW is but when you talk about best captains of all time, you have to go with guys who have captained at the highest level for a decent period. Demonstrability of potential at the international level is what counts because if it didn't, Graeme Hick and Ajay Sharma would be among the greats. I think that thread was about best wicket keeper batsman and not only on wicket keeping skills. Firstly, I wanted to point out the double standard you were applying in ABDV's case wrt to batting/keeping and Miller's case as an ATG captain despite never captaining. Secondly, AB made his international debut within a year of his domestic cricket debut, so your point of 4-5 years does not apply here. He was asked to keep as early as in his third test when Boucher was injured which means the selectors and Smith were aware of his keeping credentials. He had also started to keep for his domestic side within 1-2 years of his first class debut. Thirdly, over 15 tests, he has shown the ability to bat well while donning the gloves. And finally, don't get so worked up and whip yourself into a frenzy; it's a Friday after all.

[adi B]

the fact is that to win even a single test (forget a series win) in aus,saf,eng,u need to be proactive as a player,captain..the team should be fit and in form..one cannot give the opposition chances to get free and dictate their ways.. the best mentality we saw from this indian team abroad was in 07 where we dominated eng in 2 tests and the aussies in 3 tests. dhoni and co need to plan and execute it on field with a back up plan for the saf tour..every player must contribute to win such a high level test series

[Crookbond]

Are you sure you're feeling alright or are you always this deferential?

You could've merely pointed out my fallacy rather being a bit blunt about it. It's OK - bad time I guess!

I am sure he was a contender in the 'best in never been captain' category just as SKW is but when you talk about best captains of all time, you have to go with guys who have captained at the highest level for a decent period. Demonstrability of potential at the international level is what counts because if it didn't, Graeme Hick and Ajay Sharma would be among the greats.

Which is why I rate Brearley, Taylor and Cronje as the BEST. I never said Keith Miller is the BEST captain I have ever seen.

I think that thread was about best wicket keeper batsman and not only on wicket keeping skills.

To be a WK batsman you need to be a WK first. There is no doubt about ABDV as a batsman - I don't think I ever contested that fact.

Firstly, I wanted to point out the double standard you were applying in ABDV's case wrt to batting/keeping and Miller's case as an ATG captain despite never captaining. Secondly, AB made his international debut within a year of his domestic cricket debut, so your point of 4-5 years does not apply here. He was asked to keep as early as in his third test when Boucher was injured which means the selectors and Smith were aware of his keeping credentials. He had also started to keep for his domestic side within 1-2 years of his first class debut. Thirdly, over 15 tests, he has shown the ability to bat well while donning the gloves. And finally, don't get so worked up and whip yourself into a frenzy; it's a Friday after all.

A stop gap solution should never be viewed as a permanent option. The very fact that he refused to keep earlier is a good enough indicator. There is no double standard in either of the two threads just that I made a casual comment on how Keith Miller was a very good captain. I never said he's the best but rather the best that never was just like Ajay Jadeja for India (personal opinion). If I really meant he was the BEST, I would have rated him above Border or Taylor which I simply can't. Just like I mentioned with ABDV, I don't think Keith Miller's name should be counted as one of the great captains for Australia - total consistency on a Friday evening. :winky: