Best Indian batsmen overseas

[Manny_Pacquiao]

Dravid in my view has two great/all time overseas tours, 2002 England and Australia in 2003-04 but that Aussies bowling attack was putrid.Rest of time he has done very little in Australia or SA and also his batting in SL is horrible. .

alright then, so WHY he is in the discussion for GREATEST INDIAN OVERSEAS batsman? i would imagine that the contender for that title would have a history of big runs against the best bowling attacks of his era?

[Lurker]

my vote went to amarnath.

Mohinder Amarnath is one of my favorite Indian batsmen, and cricketer. Pound for pound the gutsiest player we produced who matched the best, went toe to toe with them and came out trumps, in their own backyard mind you. That said, the transformation in Mohinder Amarnath's batting owes atleast a fair bit to the invention of helmet. He remains one of the only Indian batsman I have seen, including likes of Tendulkar and Sehwag, who was very happy hooker. This meant he hooked everyone from Marshall, Imran to the blonde bomber Rodney Hogg. In his initial years both Richard Hadlee and Rodney Hogg bloodied him, and in case of latter he fell on the wicket. Around this time he start donning the solar hat,and later helmet. How much of his career was revived thanks to helmet is hard to say. Afterall it is not that helmet has changed the fortunes of say someone like Azhar and Zaheer Abbas. However with helmet Amarnath did become a man changed. He would keep hooking away the fast bowler whole day long, and that combined with his extreme mental strength made him the best batsman of fast bowling in early to mid 80s, when cricket was perhaps at its very best in terms of fast bowling. Modern day fans are a tad ignorant about how transforming helmet has been. Without helmet, as Kerry Packer once famously said to Justin Langer, You would have been dead son.

[Manny_Pacquiao]

the fact that he has THREE measly ****ing votes on this thread while guys like dravid have 26 (!!!!!!!) doesn't show the forum in a good light. he bats at number 5 in my all-time indian team :two_thumbs_up:

[Lurker]

I wont be surprised if we can make a successful attempt occasionally in mind-reading the thought process of cerebral cricketers like a Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Dravid, Chappell. What would be very challenging would be cases like Sobers, Botham or Kambli.

I would concur with that, although Kambli being in a group alongside Botham and Sobers is a sacrilege. It is probably as much about the fans as well though. I mean in the context of cricketing batsmen of 90s I would say although many fans, and experts, tend to portray 90s as a one man band I dont quite remember it that way. To me 90s was a time when teams around the world were quite strong, and with a relatively weak bowling attack India was not one of the leading teams. Simple. It was NOT a one man band. If I close my eyes and picture 90s, it would seem like thus. Rahul Dravid (mid 90s and later) was the money in the bank. When he walked in you knew you would get a 50-60 regardless of the opposition and the wicket. Sachin Tendulkar would walk in and you would relax, knowing the best batsman in the world was an Indian. You could go to war with any country knowing that. But it was Azhar who made grown men behave like boys. He was oft dismissed by pace bowler, rising deliveries etc. But he would show up everytime India were 53/5 and launch a counterattack. When Klusener ripped through India and Azhar blasted 5 fours in an over, there was perhaps no Indian who was going - Great shot Azhar!!! Instead I suspect most grown men were jumping at their TV going - Take that Klusner you so and so. Show him Azhar! Personally I do enjoy a game of cricket with characters like Azhar, or Kapil, or Sobers. Electric people who are hard to define. Unlike Sachin and Dravid, who are a bit more consistent and hence you kind of know what to expect. Just a personal preference I suppose.

[putrevus]

alright then, so WHY he is in the discussion for GREATEST INDIAN OVERSEAS batsman? i would imagine that the contender for that title would have a history of big runs against the best bowling attacks of his era?

My vote would not go to Dravid it has to be between Gavaskar and Sachin. Gavaskar would clinch it on a slight margin . Both of them have flaws though both of them never raised their bar when their teams became better, Gavaskar was more due to politics i felt rather than his ability . Chasing 125 to win his 50 odd ball knock for single digit score to convert winning match in melbourne 1985 to drawn one. while commentary team was talking about impending rain gavaskar was content to just defend without even showing any aggression. In my view tendulkar never raised his game to be an immortal player which he has been made out to be but he is best we had so far if we combine odi and tests. If there was vote for gutiest player it would go to amarnath but his great run was too short to be included in the poll.

[StatsRock]

alright then, so WHY he is in the discussion for GREATEST INDIAN OVERSEAS batsman? i would imagine that the contender for that title would have a history of big runs against the best bowling attacks of his era?

This is exactly why in response to Cricketics' comment <>, I posted the following: "How about McGrath, Fleming, Lee Warne? Or McGrath, Gillespie, Kaspra, Warne? " Because Dravid sucked against the above 2 quartets. I've always maintained that Dravid was suscept against a brutal, raw, hostile, red-hot four pronged attack that gives no respite. He corrected that gap in his resume against England in 2011 and I was more than happy that he was able to set the record straight. Look at the following snippet between 1997 and 2001: See how catastrophically his series runs/averages nosedived when he came up against Australia in 1999 (A mere 3 boundaries in that series!) His usual strategy of surviving all the good balls and scoring off the bad ones didnt work here because there were simply no scoring opportunities to be had against McGramingLeeWarne. Only a great batsman(SRT or Lara) who can consistently score off good balls will come with decent returns against such a super-hostile attack. Ditto the low returns against South Africa in Feb 2000. This scenario repeated against Australia in 2004-05. Scoring rates in 10s and 20s, and 1 fifty in 7 innings against McGraspieKaspraWarne. He could bat for hours but the wicket-taking ball will inevitably come without too many runs against his name. I am not going to pull out instances of 5(114 balls), 3(60) etc. I agree with Bhogle that he has a phenomenal work ethic and would have achieved world renown no matter what profession he chose to enter. But in my book Gavaskar, Tendulkar, Hazare would most certainly come ahead of Dravid.

[Crookbond]

Because Dravid sucked against the above 2 quartets. I've always maintained that Dravid was suscept against a brutal, raw, hostile, red-hot four pronged attack that gives no respite. He corrected that gap in his resume against England in 2011 and I was more than happy that he was able to set the record straight.

Since this is a hypothetical exercise your argument may be true but how many such attacks did Dravid play against? I would assume there will be very few "red-hot four pronged attacks" in history as well.

[Raghav_12]

I think competition should be between Sachin and Gavaskar. Amarnath may loose out because of relative shorter duration of his career. How Dravid got so many votes is beyond me. He succeeded only 1 out of 4 tours he made to SA and on 1 out of 4 tour he made to Australia. His votes can be attributed to following factors. 1. His overseas runs came at a time when overall team strength was good and thus his scores came out as more effective and resulted in wins more than others. 2. People here don't know much about expolits of Gavaskar and Amarnath 3. thirdly but most importantly, he was able to consolidate all anti-Sachin votes :winky:

[vvvslaxman]

I think competition should be between Sachin and Gavaskar. Amarnath may loose out because of relative shorter duration of his career. How Dravid got so many votes is beyond me. He succeeded only 1 out of 4 tours he made to SA and on 1 out of 4 tour he made to Australia. His votes can be attributed to following factors. 1. His overseas runs came at a time when overall team strength was good and thus his scores came out as more effective and resulted in wins more than others. 2. People here don't know much about expolits of Gavaskar and Amarnath 3. thirdly but most importantly, he was able to consolidate all anti-Sachin votes :winky:

Overseas don't mean just SA and Australia. When Zimabwe was decent side Tendulkar could not help win even a single test. When Sachin and Dravid played together in Zimbabwe Dravid averaged 75, Sachin mere 40. Also in Pakistan Dravid averages 78 when he plays alongside Sachin, Sachin averaged mere 40. In West Indies when they play together Dravid averages 63, Tendulkar 47. Adding NZ Dravid averages 63 Sachin 49 when they play together. In England Dravid 68 Tendulkar 54..

[Raghav_12]

Overseas don't mean just SA and Australia. When Zimabwe was decent side Tendulkar could not help win even a single test. When Sachin and Dravid played together in Zimbabwe Dravid averaged 75' date=' Sachin mere 40. Also in Pakistan Dravid averages 78 when he plays alongside Sachin, Sachin averaged mere 40. In West Indies when they play together Dravid averages 63, Tendulkar 47. Adding NZ Dravid averages 63 Sachin 49 when they play together. In England Dravid 68 Tendulkar 54..[/quote'] By what criteria you left Bangladesh, SriLanka out then? Just because Sachin averages more than Dravid? For away tours SL has been difficult place for teams world over than Pakistan in last decade or so. And why this special rider "when they played together"? Overseas means Australia and South Africa largely and than England and than NZ. If you are going to compare a perfomance against SA of 11 with WI of 11 or of 06, then you kidding yourself.

[vvvslaxman]

By what criteria you left Bangladesh, SriLanka out then? Just because Sachin averages more than Dravid? For away tours SL has been difficult place for teams world over than Pakistan in last decade or so. And why this special rider "when they played together"? Overseas means Australia and South Africa largely and than England and than NZ. If you are going to compare a perfomance against SA of 11 with WI of 11 or of 06, then you kidding yourself.

I don't discredit Sachin. But you discredit Dravid. Hence i focussed on the countries where Dravid has done better than Sachin. And also overseas don't mean australia and SA. When India was blanked in NZ during 2002 series on drop in pitches who do you think scored more runs in the series? It was Dravid. Conditions in that series was far tougher than any series faced by these two together. If you force Sachin to open in test matches in SA you would know how he would have scored. Keep in mind Dravid was forced to open in the 2 Test series. Also Dravid volunteered himself to open in few places.

[vvvslaxman]

My only problem with Tendulkar is this. He had opportunity to register overseas win several times. He failed every single time starting from 120 chase against West Indies in the 90s. Against Zimbabwe failed. Against SA a possible series win was on the line when he was making the debutant paul harris look like bishen singh bedi. Then again in the Adelaide test while chasing a tricky total of 233 he couldn't finish the job. After few nerve wracking moments India won it forcing Gangu to say "Dravid batted like God".

[putrevus]

I dont think Sachin's performance in SA 11 was legendary, It was good but it was not any earth shattering performance.

[yoda]

By what criteria you left Bangladesh, SriLanka out then? Just because Sachin averages more than Dravid? For away tours SL has been difficult place for teams world over than Pakistan in last decade or so. And why this special rider "when they played together"? Overseas means Australia and South Africa largely and than England and than NZ. If you are going to compare a perfomance against SA of 11 with WI of 11 or of 06, then you kidding yourself.

IIRC, we hadn't won a single test in Pak prior to the 2004 series. WI is overseas cause well it is duh overseas. Reason why RD is top there in the polls is because people have seen him bat in these conditions and have experienced his contribution to the wins he has been part of. No amount of stat twisting and selective exclusions are going to erase their memory. :winky:

[yoda]

I don't discredit Sachin. But you discredit Dravid. Hence i focussed on the countries where Dravid has done better than Sachin. And also overseas don't mean australia and SA. When India was blanked in NZ during 2002 series on drop in pitches who do you think scored more runs in the series? It was Dravid. Conditions in that series was far tougher than any series faced by these two together. If you force Sachin to open in test matches in SA you would know how he would have scored. Keep in mind Dravid was forced to open in the 2 Test series. Also Dravid volunteered himself to open in few places.

My only problem with Tendulkar is this. He had opportunity to register overseas win several times. He failed every single time starting from 120 chase against West Indies in the 90s. Against Zimbabwe failed. Against SA a possible series win was on the line when he was making the debutant paul harris look like bishen singh bedi. Then again in the Adelaide test while chasing a tricky total of 233 he couldn't finish the job. After few nerve wracking moments India won it forcing Gangu to say "Dravid batted like God".

Good posts. :nice:

[Raghav_12]

I don't discredit Sachin. But you discredit Dravid. .

I don't discredit Dravid. See first point of my post. I clearly say that Dravid has been more effective in winning tests overseas. Ahead of any Indian player ever. But in terms of overall overseas performances overseas he is way behind Sachin and Gavaskar. There are quite a good number of series where he simply failed, miserably.

[vvvslaxman]

I don't discredit Dravid. See first point of my post. I clearly say that Dravid has been more effective in winning tests overseas. Ahead of any Indian player ever. But in terms of overall overseas performances overseas he is way behind Sachin and Gavaskar. There are quite a good number of series where he simply failed' date= miserably.

I certainly disagree there. Overseas don't mean automatically every pitch they play are difficult. On few of the difficult pitches both encountered together Dravid clearly came out on top. Tendulkar thrived on true batting pitches with his attacking style of cricket with attacking field set. Dravid never had that gear. That is where Dravid is somewhat behind Sachin. But in testing conditions more often than not Dravid came out on top. Even now if the ball is seaming around and you ask me to pick an Indian to survive, i would pick Dravid 100 out of 100 times. On a true pitch with not much lateral movement i would pick Tendulkar.

[Muloghonto]

Overseas don't mean just SA and Australia. When Zimabwe was decent side Tendulkar could not help win even a single test. When Sachin and Dravid played together in Zimbabwe Dravid averaged 75' date=' Sachin mere 40. Also in Pakistan Dravid averages 78 when he plays alongside Sachin, Sachin averaged mere 40. In West Indies when they play together Dravid averages 63, Tendulkar 47. Adding NZ Dravid averages 63 Sachin 49 when they play together. In England Dravid 68 Tendulkar 54..[/quote'] Yes, we all know that Dravid was just as good, if not slightly better, than Tendulkar at beating up substandard /average bowling at his prime. Now, tell us how did the benchmark for the greatest (in any category) get obfuscated enough to be hinged on performances against any Tom,Dick and Harry, while discounting the glaring deficiencies(or success) against the best of the best ? Look, Tendy is not just the greatest Indian overseas batsman. He is, by far, the greatest overseas batsman ever seen after Don Bradman, period. He is the *ONLY* one to've done exceptionally well and dominated against top class bowling attacks overseas, as well as the very good ones, through their entire careers without fail, against multiple opponents. While Gavaskar ripped it up against the mighty Windies and did excellently against an excellent Paki attack through his career, Sachin did it against the Aussies and the Saffies, while not failing against anyone over his career (Gavaskar was a relative failure vs England).

[vvvslaxman]

Yes, we all know that Dravid was just as good, if not slightly better, than Tendulkar at beating up substandard /average bowling at his prime. Now, tell us how did the benchmark for the greatest (in any category) get obfuscated enough to be hinged on performances against any Tom,Dick and Harry, while discounting the glaring deficiencies(or success) against the best of the best ? Look, Tendy is not just the greatest Indian overseas batsman. He is, by far, the greatest overseas batsman ever seen after Don Bradman, period. He is the *ONLY* one to've done exceptionally well and dominated against top class bowling attacks overseas, as well as the very good ones, through their entire careers without fail, against multiple opponents. While Gavaskar ripped it up against the mighty Windies and did excellently against an excellent Paki attack through his career, Sachin did it against the Aussies and the Saffies, while not failing against anyone over his career (Gavaskar was a relative failure vs England).

Let me put this way. It is easy for no.3 batsman to bat at no.4 vice versa is not true. I never question SUnny being an opener he gets an extra point. I never questioned Tendulkar's credentials either. If Tendulkar had batted at no.3 or played as an opener he couldn't have reached such an average. Just do a quick look up which position is the toughest to bat no.3 or no.4

[StatsRock]

Since this is a hypothetical exercise your argument may be true but how many such attacks did Dravid play against? I would assume there will be very few "red-hot four pronged attacks" in history as well.

He's played quite a few Absolute Tortoise innings. There were some in Australia 2007-08 as well. Sydney 2008 was an eye-opener for me as I realised the gap in shot-making between Dravid and Laxman. At one stage, Laxman 57* (47b 11x4) Dravid 17* (57b 3x4) This is when India had folded up for 175 in both innings at Melbourne and were staring at Australia's 463, with McGrath predicting a 4-0 series win. A glorious momentum-changing hundred from Laxman there, just like Kim Hughes 100 against Holding/Garner/Roberts/Croft at Melbourne 1981. Dravid isn't capable of playing such an innings. Although it can be argued that he was good enough to survive 100+ balls when a lesser batsman would have got out in 10.