For India to Progress, Congress Must Dissolve

[G_B_]

The challenge for Congress is now to tell to who their loyalty lies for. For 60 years' date=' its openly towards the family, but will that change now? Will there be a expulsion[/quote'] The problem with the dynasty system is that the party is heavily dependent on the king. The king today (RaGA) is a weak. It worked well with strong charismatic leaders like Nehru Indira and Rajiv. Its not just the congress. Every regional party is basically a small kingdom. Only the BJP and the Communists allow you the chance to rise from within. Somebody takes out Sonia Prinyanka and Rahul and the congress will collapse into factions. Somebody takes out Modi and the BJP will fall in numbers and strength but it will survive due to the insurance policy being the RSS. Long term its the parties like the BJP and the Communists which are going to remain in Indian politics. Cause they have structure. Regional parties be the allied to NDA or UPA are going to disappear sooner or later. The narrative of Modi is that you can rise from the bottom to reach the top in the BJP. Its not just Modi, you look at somebody like Shivraj Chohan in MP and there is another example of somebody who has worked his way to the top. With the congress at the moment you are just a pawn in the hands of the family. If you are seen as a threat you are disposed of and your wings and clipped.

[Detonator]

how about Italians? or Bangladeshis or Pakis?

I don't blame Italians or Pakis. It's the Indians who bend down to them and treat those waitresses as queens and terrorists as royal gaurds. If Indians ignore them, they are just a speck of dust who nobody gives a feck.

[Detonator]

It's really sad to see that the infrastructure in India has improved at snails pace in most cities. While on my travel to various Indian states, i found the infrastructure to be very very poor. By that i mean the cities of Gujarat, Chennai, Hyderabad, Kolkota and Mangalore. They are at least 20 years behind Mumbai in terms of infrastructure. Even the public service buses in Chennai were so horrible. They look like buses which haven't been washed for years, no glass windows, just those dirty rods, the autos which are shabby. Even the area near the Chennai airport seemed to be like a village. And i was watching all this while the chaffeur drove through the main road nearing airport. Ridiculous infrastructure in all aspects. I felt for the people living there and the public services they have to use. Hyderabad looked like a developing city with problems of its own. Kolkota too was not impressive. Heck even some bridge nearby the highway had collapsed. A lot is talked about Gujarat infrastructure and Modi. Well, apart form Rajkot airport the last flight from Bhuj to Mumbai is at 5:45 PM. Even in Rajkot the last flight is 8:55 P.M. The Bhuj airport actually closes in the noon. Mangalore too looks like a city which is years behind Mumbai. yet another city with poor infrastructure. The political parties have only taken care of the financial capital of India i.e. Mumbai. Apart from Delhi and Mumbai there is no stock exchange. The infrastructure that i experienced in most cities is years behind Mumbai. The politicians have done nothing to improve the backwards cities. It is about time something changes. All we can do is hope and wait for the ongoing election results. I hope to see better infrastructure everywhere, no matter which party comes to power.

Unlike the well developed financial capital Mumbai or it's kid sister Pune, cities of Gujarat, Chennai, Hyderabad, Bangalore doesn't have 60% of population living in slums. The govt has taken care of Mumbai's posh areas, let the slums to rot. Guess they are planning to nuke em one day. Yes, the infrastructures of Chennai or Kochi or Bangalore is crippling, but you have look at their respective states. The towns and villages of those states like Gujarat, TN or Kerela are much developed unlike Maharastra where 1000s farmers commit suicide every now and then. The posh mumbai has leeched the rest of Maharastra. The pollution you get in the financial capital makes you wonder how it's sustainable for humans to live there. Personally, I would live in a 100 yrs backward village in a middle of a jungle with fresh air, rather than a polluted concrete jungle.

[Muloghonto]

I am concerned that if congress dies before BJP becomes the dominant national party ( there is no state or territorry congress hasnt won before, BJP is yet to break into certian states) then the central parties will be left too weak and india would become a center of regional parties with regional agendas first and foremost ruling india through coalition, rather than a national party that will put nation above region.

[Muloghonto]

The problem with the dynasty system is that the party is heavily dependent on the king. The king today (RaGA) is a weak. It worked well with strong charismatic leaders like Nehru Indira and Rajiv. Its not just the congress. Every regional party is basically a small kingdom. Only the BJP and the Communists allow you the chance to rise from within. Somebody takes out Sonia Prinyanka and Rahul and the congress will collapse into factions. Somebody takes out Modi and the BJP will fall in numbers and strength but it will survive due to the insurance policy being the RSS. Long term its the parties like the BJP and the Communists which are going to remain in Indian politics. Cause they have structure. Regional parties be the allied to NDA or UPA are going to disappear sooner or later. The narrative of Modi is that you can rise from the bottom to reach the top in the BJP. Its not just Modi, you look at somebody like Shivraj Chohan in MP and there is another example of somebody who has worked his way to the top. With the congress at the moment you are just a pawn in the hands of the family. If you are seen as a threat you are disposed of and your wings and clipped.

Well said and IMO I would be happy if the communists stepped up to the plate and made themselves relevant again in pan-India fashion. IE, through politics, not through Naxalite crap. IMO the communists need to look towards parties like the NDP in Canada, to see how a dyed in red communist party survives/adapts in the capitalist age and makes itself relevant. IMO the communist party has a lot to offer to India. They just need to accept the fact that free market capitalism is here to stay and the only way you can equalize the playing field for those being born rich and being born poor, is through offering social services financed through asymetric taxation. I do think the BJP is here to stay. The communists have been here a long time but have slowly become a tri-state party ( Kerala, WB and Tripura), while being not at all present elsewhere. They need to make themselves relevant in the national scheme. The BJP need to entrench themselves pan-India, particularly in the NE. The only reason why North East is politically pacified is because a central party (Congress) dominates the Lok Sabha elections from these provinces. If the congress were to die/become irrelevant without BJP/Communists replacing the congress votebank, then those votes will go to regional parties, which would definitely see NE break away from India eventually as India descends into regional party based politics to fill the vaccum left by congress.

[G_B_]

Its not as simple as that. Take a look at Andhra Pradesh. First it was congress then it was tdp then it came trs and finally Jagan congress. There are just too many regional parties even within states. One of these local parties will always form an alliance with a national party in order to sure up its numbers. Thats exactly what the TDP cheif Naidu realised. The problem arises when there is only a BJD. Ie just one strong local party.

[FischerTal]

Its not as simple as that. Take a look at Andhra Pradesh. First it was congress then it was tdp then it came trs and finally Jagan congress. There are just too many regional parties even within states. One of these local parties will always form an alliance with a national party in order to sure up its numbers. Thats exactly what the TDP cheif Naidu realised. The problem arises when there is only a BJD. Ie just one strong local party.

Amit Shah needs to expand BJP into states like WB, Kerala, Tamil Nadu. I see in future Namo/Amit Shah working like Vajpayee/Advani did.

[Muloghonto]

wierd, i thought Feroze Gandhi was Prsi :ohmy: whatever!

He was Iranian-Indian but not Parsi. IMO, i am surprised that Indira went to Babur's shrine. I didn't expect this of her, though I must admit, if seen without the tint of nationalist pro-India glasses, Babur had some pretty admirable qualities and had one hell of a life. its a personal opinion, but i have a suspicion tha babur was not a religious zealot. he seems like the guy who had no inclination for religion but fanned the religious fervor if it meant getting more troops to comit to his cause, like Nader Shah did.

[G_B_]

Amit Shah needs to expand BJP into states like WB' date=' Kerala, Tamil Nadu. I see in future Namo/Amit Shah working like Vajpayee/Advani did.[/quote'] Keep Amit shah for actually election campaigns. IE parachute him 6 months before elections. This is where the RSS and Rajnath singh step in. You need to develop cadre. In many cases you need to bring in defectors from other parties into your fold. Ie you need to build infrastructure. So basically Build with RSS and Rajnath. Lay the ground work bring in shah before the elections have a modi blitz of rallies. That needs to be strategy. For Modi, his time his going to be precious. You cant expect him to address many rallies has he has done this campgaign.

[Muloghonto]

Its not as simple as that. Take a look at Andhra Pradesh. First it was congress then it was tdp then it came trs and finally Jagan congress. There are just too many regional parties even within states. One of these local parties will always form an alliance with a national party in order to sure up its numbers. Thats exactly what the TDP cheif Naidu realised. The problem arises when there is only a BJD. Ie just one strong local party.

Yes,i realize this. But IMO a strong pan-India central party base needs to exist.Not just one but a few. Because I am fine with regional party in state politics, national party + regional party support for national politics. I am not fine with bunch of regional parties forming coalition government for the center( imagine a Mamata-Mayawati-Lalloo-Yadav type coalition!!). IMO if congress dies right now, the latter case ( state party coalition) will become an instant reality, being the only viable alternative to BJP. For state aprties to form alliances with the national party, there has to be national party to form alliance with. With congress gone, there will be only 1 national party. So either the government or the opposition leader, will be the coalition of regional parties.

[G_B_]

Yes,i realize this. But IMO a strong pan-India central party base needs to exist.Not just one but a few. Because I am fine with regional party in state politics, national party + regional party support for national politics. I am not fine with bunch of regional parties forming coalition government for the center( imagine a Mamata-Mayawati-Lalloo-Yadav type coalition!!). IMO if congress dies right now, the latter case ( state party coalition) will become an instant reality, being the only viable alternative to BJP. For state aprties to form alliances with the national party, there has to be national party to form alliance with. With congress gone, there will be only 1 national party. So either the government or the opposition leader, will be the coalition of regional parties.

thats a fair point. I think india will be better off with a centre right (bjp) and a centre left (congress without the gandhis) who are spread to every state.

[Muloghonto]

Keep Amit shah for actually election campaigns. IE parachute him 6 months before elections. This is where the RSS and Rajnath singh step in. You need to develop cadre. In many cases you need to bring in defectors from other parties into your fold. Ie you need to build infrastructure. So basically Build with RSS and Rajnath. Lay the ground work bring in shah before the elections have a modi blitz of rallies. That needs to be strategy. For Modi, his time his going to be precious. You cant expect him to address many rallies has he has done this campgaign.

RSS will be disastrous in West Bengal. I can pretty much tell you that. For one, most bengali hindus who are educated, do not care one whit about hinduism,especially viashnavism that RSS espouses. They care about durga puja, saraswati puja, laxmi puja, kali puja, holi and rakhi. The end. Bengali hindus are not like krishna or ram leela type hindus, we are mostly shaktas. Plus bengal has like 25-30% muslim population, so RSS will not get anywhere with them to build support. If your idea is to build with RSS, then BJP will never ever break into the states like West Bengal, 7 sisters, Sikkim, Kashmir, etc. RSS is too much of a religious order to turn itself into a political order, no matter how much charity and legwork it does. And that too, it appeals to only a limited scope of hindus, as it tends to be far more about krishna, vishnu, ram leela & shiva. That is mainstream hinduism but very absent in some regions of india too.

[G_B_]

RSS will be disastrous in West Bengal. I can pretty much tell you that. For one, most bengali hindus who are educated, do not care one whit about hinduism,especially viashnavism that RSS espouses. They care about durga puja, saraswati puja, laxmi puja, kali puja, holi and rakhi. The end. Bengali hindus are not like krishna or ram leela type hindus, we are mostly shaktas. Plus bengal has like 25-30% muslim population, so RSS will not get anywhere with them to build support. If your idea is to build with RSS, then BJP will never ever break into the states like West Bengal, 7 sisters, Sikkim, Kashmir, etc. RSS is too much of a religious order to turn itself into a political order, no matter how much charity and legwork it does. And that too, it appeals to only a limited scope of hindus, as it tends to be far more about krishna, vishnu, ram leela & shiva. That is mainstream hinduism but very absent in some regions of india too.

The RSS was founded by a Bengali. If a lingayat like Yeddy can come through the RSS ranks then i dont see a problem for a Bengali hindu. Having said that WB and Tamil nadu will come lower down the list of states the RSS will concentrate on. The number one targets will be Andhra and Orissa.

[Yoda-esque]

The RSS was founded by a Bengali. If a lingayat like Yeddy can come through the RSS ranks then i dont see a problem for a Bengali hindu. Having said that WB and Tamil nadu will come lower down the list of states the RSS will concentrate on. The number one targets will be Andhra and Orissa.

Hegdewar was Bengali?

[G_B_]

my appoligies. Meant to say Bharatiya jana sangh was formed by a bengali. The godfather of todays BJP Mr Mookerjee.

[Muloghonto]

The RSS was founded by a Bengali. If a lingayat like Yeddy can come through the RSS ranks then i dont see a problem for a Bengali hindu. Having said that WB and Tamil nadu will come lower down the list of states the RSS will concentrate on. The number one targets will be Andhra and Orissa.

Yes, it was founded by a Bengali but has zero presence in Bengal. A Bengali is allowed to do what he wants too- and if he wants to appeal to the masses of hindus- the biharis, UP-ites, Rajasthanis, central indians, gujjus etc. then let him, no ? What i am trying to communicate, is that RSS is a bit like catholicism to Bengali 'anglicans' or something similar. Our brand of hinduism is not the same that RSS espouses and we are not the type who care too much about Ram-leela, Krishna or stuff. To most bengali hindus, they are minor players in hinduism. So how is a religious organization who's go-to references are shiva, vishnu, rama, parashurama, krishna etc. going to appeal to us ? As a guy who was brought up Bengali Brahmin, i can tell you that we grow up learning the tales of Kali stepping on Shiva, Durga slaying mahishashur, etc much more so than Ram slayig Ravana, krishna mentoring Arjuna, etc.I can also tell you flat out that if you get too much Ram-leela on Bengali hindus, you run the risk of finding one of us who will promptly say Ram was a typical chauvinistic jackass and Sita is the real Goddess amongst it all, who should really have taken her Godly avatar, slapped Rama silly for daring to question her chastity (Did she go around asking if Rama fathered children shagging other women when his wife was abducted ?) and dismissed him altogether. Because trust me, that thought runs pretty strong in some bengali hindus too- i was shocked to find this out from a purohit from the Kalighat temples no less!! Our brand of hinduism is simply speaking, a bit different from the brand RSS runs with, which is mostly the 'Benarasi type' of hinduism. So RSS is just not the recipe for BJP unless BJP really only wants to be the hindu party that doesnt care about JK, North East, Bengal, Kerala and only cares about the rest of the hindus from rest of india. We have 150 million muslims amongst us, another 30-50 million other religions and 25-35 million sikhs alongside the hundreds of millions of hindus. BJP cannot be a long term national party if it cannot identify a route to build a base inclusive of these people and RSS definitely cannot do that. I am a former hindu religiously speaking ( i stopped caring about religion a long time ago) and even I find RSS's message to be too strongly religious that it is abrasive. I can only imagine how that would go down with people who have religious beliefs that run counter to those of RSS...

[G_B_]

Yes, it was founded by a Bengali but has zero presence in Bengal. A Bengali is allowed to do what he wants too- and if he wants to appeal to the masses of hindus- the biharis, UP-ites, Rajasthanis, central indians, gujjus etc. then let him, no ? What i am trying to communicate, is that RSS is a bit like catholicism to Bengali 'anglicans' or something similar. Our brand of hinduism is not the same that RSS espouses and we are not the type who care too much about Ram-leela, Krishna or stuff. To most bengali hindus, they are minor players in hinduism. So how is a religious organization who's go-to references are shiva, vishnu, rama, parashurama, krishna etc. going to appeal to us ? As a guy who was brought up Bengali Brahmin, i can tell you that we grow up learning the tales of Kali stepping on Shiva, Durga slaying mahishashur, etc much more so than Ram slayig Ravana, krishna mentoring Arjuna, etc. So RSS is just not the recipe for BJP unless BJP really only wants to be the hindu party that doesnt care about JK, North East, Bengal, Kerala and only cares about the rest of the hindus from rest of india. We have 150 million muslims amongst us, another 30-50 million other religions and 25-35 million sikhs alongside the hundreds of millions of hindus. BJP cannot be a long term national party if it cannot identify a route to build a base inclusive of these people and RSS definitely cannot do that. I am a former hindu religiously speaking ( i stopped caring about religion a long time ago) and even I find RSS's message to be too strongly religious that it is abrasive. I can only imagine how that would go down with people who have religious beliefs that run counter to those of RSS...

and lingayats dont believe in any god apart from shiva. If Bengalis are Anglicans Lingayats are like Mormans As i said before if a ligayat like Yeddy can rise through the ranks of the RSS to become a chief minister of Karnataka then i really not see an issue in terms of philosophy. Sawarkar, one of the main force behind hindutva was an atheist just like you in ritual terms. But held cultural affinity higher as his definition of what hinduism was. Its sort of similar to me. Count me out of the rituals. I am sure the RSS will tone down their religious tones in WB and concentrate more on a cultural hindu view point. They will though start with the tribals and move into the mainsteam. They do have a very good track record with tribals in states like chattisgragh MP and Maharashtra.

[Muloghonto]

and lingayats dont believe in any god apart from shiva. If Bengalis are Anglicans Lingayats are like Mormans As i said before if a ligayat like Yeddy can rise through the ranks of the RSS to become a chief minister of Karnataka then i really not see an issue in terms of philosophy. Sawarkar, one of the main force behind hindutva was an atheist just like you in ritual terms. But held cultural affinity higher as his definition of what hinduism was. Its sort of similar to me. Count me out of the rituals. I am sure the RSS will tone down their religious tones in WB and concentrate more on a cultural hindu view point.

I hope so, but i cannot see what they wish to accomplish in a state of 90 million people where 25 million are muslims and the rest will fundamentally not identify with RSS core tenets. Even if RSS strays from its core process, it will still only garner a lukewarm response from the bengali hindus and the bengali muslims will flat out reject RSS. Probably thats why BJP has zero presence in bengal. We are a complicated people, in terms of psyche. Nationalism doesnt appeal to us as much, because we are basically butt-hurt people who cannot truely let go of Bangladesh/bengalis from there having some 'special status' to us and who consider both BJP and Congress to've betrayed acknowledgement of the Bengali contribution to Indian independence, which was basically greater than any other state/regions by a few orders of magnitude. I may be wrong but I think we contributed like 25-30% of the number of politicians, policy advocates and activists who got thrown in jail for the entire sum total of indian independence movement participants. Yet, we are made to read like footnotes of Netaji plus a bunch of nobodies. Not many know this but one reason we became communist in the first place is to change the education curriculum which cut out 90% of bengali major players from independence movements! So the 'formulaic bharat first' nationalism- it gets lukewarm response in bengal. What bengalis care about though, is our rights and pride while living in the middle east. If i am not mistaken, we are the second largest indian ethnicity in the middle east, after the malayalis. If BJP wants to appeal to bengalis, it'll have to shake more concessions for bengali cultural associations that operate in the middle east to provide bengali culture. That is the only way BJP gets the reputation to being a 'strong government and gives a damn about us bengalis' amongst the bengalis, in my opinion.

[ravishingravi]

prediction of outy back in 2013 :cantstop:

Aisa Bahut Kuch hai bhai. You ll find lot of their internet connections hampered.

[ravishingravi]

RSS will be disastrous in West Bengal. I can pretty much tell you that. For one, most bengali hindus who are educated, do not care one whit about hinduism,especially viashnavism that RSS espouses. They care about durga puja, saraswati puja, laxmi puja, kali puja, holi and rakhi. The end. Bengali hindus are not like krishna or ram leela type hindus, we are mostly shaktas. Plus bengal has like 25-30% muslim population, so RSS will not get anywhere with them to build support. If your idea is to build with RSS, then BJP will never ever break into the states like West Bengal, 7 sisters, Sikkim, Kashmir, etc. RSS is too much of a religious order to turn itself into a political order, no matter how much charity and legwork it does. And that too, it appeals to only a limited scope of hindus, as it tends to be far more about krishna, vishnu, ram leela & shiva. That is mainstream hinduism but very absent in some regions of india too.

Agree and disagree with you. Yes RSS might not be the medium to penetrate WB. But in my experience, there is huge potential for right leaning support in Bengal particularly the educated class you mention. Esp given the disillusionment post independence. My feeling is that if Modi delivers across the country this feeling will only get accentuated.