Reminscing and stating the obvious - India's best keeper ever

[rkt.india]

Did you see Kapil's first few years ? Or is this one of your ridiculous 'watch how close wicketkeeper is standing from video footage' nonsense ?

So you are saying Kapil could bowl faster than 90 mph? There were no speed guns at that time and even 80 mph looks pretty quick to naked eyes. PS: Why does the bold part irrelevant?

[Marut]

Zaheer could bowl 90 mph in his youth. Kapil was not faster than him at any stage of his career. Zak was quick but used to be wayward.

Kapil was pretty fast till 84 or so. May be he did not get due credit for his pace because several other bowlers of his period were even faster.

[Marut]

I suggest a read of http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/621923.html for a comprehensive analysis of all wkt keepers. Dhoni as an overall package is actually heads and shoulders above any other wicket keepers of the past.

[Muloghonto]

So you are saying Kapil could bowl faster than 90 mph? There were no speed guns at that time and even 80 mph looks pretty quick to naked eyes. PS: Why does the bold part irrelevant?

Again, what are you basing your opinons on ? Speed guns or no speed guns, it doesnt take a genuis to compare how fast two bowlers look from the stands on a consistent basis. I said 140kph-ish, which would be 88-89 mph IIRC and yes, Kapil habitually bowled in that vicinity for a long time. The bolded part is irrelevant because it is the biggest heap of BS i've ever read. Camera angles vary and until the mid 90s, there was no standard camera angle. How on earth you are judging how far a wicketkeeper is from the wicket based on a head-on view, is beyond me. Wicketkeepers look a lot closer than they are from front on view than side on view, this much should be obvious to anyone with basic observation skills, nevermind actual orthographic projection skills. The idea of trying to figure out how far the wicket-keeper or the slips are from a head-on view from a 2-d image is as nonsensical as it gets. you have no idea how close they are to the wicket, if you think you are going to stick a ruler in or compare bowler to batsman to batsman to wicketkeeper distances, again, that is nothing more than nonsense of the highest order. You say you can tell how far keepers are standing from a tv footage of the 70s/80s ? I call BS on that.

[Muloghonto]

I suggest a read of http://www.espncricinfo.com/blogs/content/story/621923.html for a comprehensive analysis of all wkt keepers. Dhoni as an overall package is actually heads and shoulders above any other wicket keepers of the past.

If overall package involves batting, then yes, he is the best India has ever produced IMO but Engineer ranks a close second IMO. having said that, I'd say Gillchrist, Knott,Dujon,Boucher were better overall package than Dhoni and I'd pick healy and Richardson over Dhoni for their near-flawless keeping skills more than making up for their shortfall in batting.

[Marut]

Kapil, if his knee didnt buckle and had been properly managed (ie, rested) could've been Pollock-esque in his numbers. perhaps not an average of 22-23, but more like 24-26.

Kapil's 24-26 would be at least as good as Pollock's 22-23 because Kapil bowled in flatter conditions and also without any decent pace support at the other end. Kapil does average 26 odd in India and strangely enough averages 32 away where conditions are more favourable. When you probe into the reason, it is apparently because in India Kapil had some good support from the other end at least from spinners who averaged in the high 20s. But when we toured Kapil was often just an one man army, no support from either pace or spin and it must have been a dreary job for Kapil for much of his career.

[CG]

Comparing Keepers On No Of Dismissals Alone Is Epic Fail.If U have A good bowling attack with weaker opp teams offcourse u will get more dismissals.IMO I want a Keeper who is acrobatic and take half chances.

[Muloghonto]

Kapil's 24-26 would be at least as good as Pollock's 22-23 because Kapil bowled in flatter conditions and also without any decent pace support at the other end. Kapil does average 26 odd in India and strangely enough averages 32 away where conditions are more favourable. When you probe into the reason, it is apparently because in India Kapil had some good support from the other end at least from spinners who averaged in the high 20s. But when we toured Kapil was often just an one man army, no support from either pace or spin and it must have been a dreary job for Kapil for much of his career.

Well that and the line and length you need to adopt bowling pace inside and outside the subcontinent are very different. Outside of the subcontinent, good length/short of a length bowling is the bread and butter, because of higher bounce & carry giving the ball optimal movement off the pitch before meeting the bat conditions. In the subcontinent, you need to bowl fuller to compensate for low bounce. Often times bowlers do not adjust their L&L very well in these alien conditions. Srinath was notorious for bowling poor L&L for overseas conditions. You see the same thing frmo most fast bowlers coming from overseas and laying a turd in India. Genuine out and out pacers with decent accuracy can keep batsmen honest on any pitch because batsmen cannot come to front foot against them with impunity. But this curious case of practically all subcontinental fast bowlers being better in the subcontinent than away can be explained by the differing L&L phenomenon (Imran the cheat excepted, he got tons of help from corrupt Paki umps).

[Marut]

Well that and the line and length you need to adopt bowling pace inside and outside the subcontinent are very different. Outside of the subcontinent, good length/short of a length bowling is the bread and butter, because of higher bounce & carry giving the ball optimal movement off the pitch before meeting the bat conditions. In the subcontinent, you need to bowl fuller to compensate for low bounce. Often times bowlers do not adjust their L&L very well in these alien conditions. Srinath was notorious for bowling poor L&L for overseas conditions. You see the same thing frmo most fast bowlers coming from overseas and laying a turd in India. Genuine out and out pacers with decent accuracy can keep batsmen honest on any pitch because batsmen cannot come to front foot against them with impunity. But this curious case of practically all subcontinental fast bowlers being better in the subcontinent than away can be explained by the differing L&L phenomenon (Imran the cheat excepted, he got tons of help from corrupt Paki umps).

Yes, and good explanation. Isn't quite strange that even after much experience in alien conditions, sub continental bowlers do not quite get the feel of right L & L? Inferior averages in alien conditions (even though favourable) seems fully justified for young inexperienced bowlers, but for the more seasoned bowlers there seems to be additional factors at play. ( It could be that the batsmen play better at home, even if home is more difficult to play; different umpiring standards etc)

[Marut]

Well that and the line and length you need to adopt bowling pace inside and outside the subcontinent are very different. Outside of the subcontinent, good length/short of a length bowling is the bread and butter, because of higher bounce & carry giving the ball optimal movement off the pitch before meeting the bat conditions. In the subcontinent, you need to bowl fuller to compensate for low bounce. Often times bowlers do not adjust their L&L very well in these alien conditions. Srinath was notorious for bowling poor L&L for overseas conditions. You see the same thing frmo most fast bowlers coming from overseas and laying a turd in India. Genuine out and out pacers with decent accuracy can keep batsmen honest on any pitch because batsmen cannot come to front foot against them with impunity. But this curious case of practically all subcontinental fast bowlers being better in the subcontinent than away can be explained by the differing L&L phenomenon (Imran the cheat excepted, he got tons of help from corrupt Paki umps).

One more curious fact is that granting that India, Pakistan and Srilanka have comparable conditions, Kapil dev averages 40 in Pakistan, 26 in India and 33 in Srilanka. The flatter decks of Pakistan and Srilanka have apparently trouble Kapil, but not the flat decks of India. In WI and Australia, Kapil did make use of the conditions, averaging 23 and 24 respectively. But in England , NZ and SA, he has poor figures - 39. 42 and 37.

[Raghav_12]

Nowadays test matches produce more results that means higher number of dismissals per test match with respect to 70's and 80's. Because of this It is only obvious that modern wicketkeepers would have higher number of dismissals per test match. I think you can't really use this stat as very influencing parameter to determine relative greatness of keepers.

[vvvslaxman]

It is fair if we compare him with his contemporaries like Wasim bari, Jeffrey Dujon, Bob Taylor, Rod Marsh. Marsh has better numbers thanks to the kind of surfaces he played on. Dujon was a style master.. he took some splendid diving catches..Also he dropped few while attempting these dives.

[The Outsider]

Nowadays test matches produce more results that means higher number of dismissals per test match with respect to 70's and 80's. Because of this It is only obvious that modern wicketkeepers would have higher number of dismissals per test match. I think you can't really use this stat as very influencing parameter to determine relative greatness of keepers.

I made that and many other points in post #9, but fanboyzz are accusing me of making up random stats because of my dislike for Dhoni. :dontknow: To give more concrete numbers, during Kirmani's time matches involving India saw 27.x wickets per match and during Dhoni's time it's up to 31.x wickets per match.

[vvvslaxman]

http://www.indiancricketfans.com/showthread.php?p=679409 This thread is relevant to what we discuss.

[Crookbond]

Greater pace would mean more likelihood for finer edges to the keeper. Slower pace would mean more catches going to slips and gully or in the case of someone like Madan Lal and Binny in front of the wicket. Check out Lee/McGrath or Donald/Pollock as examples.

It also depends on the skills of the bowler to induce those edges.

[Raghav_12]

I made that and many other points in post #9, but fanboyzz are accusing me of making up random stats because of my dislike for Dhoni. :dontknow: To give more concrete numbers, during Kirmani's time matches involving India saw 27.x wickets per match and during Dhoni's time it's up to 31.x wickets per match.

I don't think it is even debatable. Almost all modern wicketkeepers have better dismissals/innings records than their older counterparts. Unfortunately Dhoni comes nowhere in his peer group. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=dismissals_per_inns;template=results;type=fielding Even Kamtran Akmal, after dropping so many of them, deliberately and not deliberately, has significantly higher dismissals per innings than Dhoni. Also I am sure Pakistan would have achieved fewer dismissals per innings in Kakmal's time that India in Dhoni's time.

[Marut]

I don't think it is even debatable. Almost all modern wicketkeepers have better dismissals/innings records than their older counterparts. Unfortunately Dhoni comes nowhere in his peer group. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=dismissals_per_inns;template=results;type=fielding Even Kamtran Akmal, after dropping so many of them, deliberately and not deliberately, has significantly higher dismissals per innings than Dhoni. Also I am sure Pakistan would have achieved fewer dismissals per innings in Kakmal's time that India in Dhoni's time.

Dhoni is midway if you take in the last two decades and a minimum of 20 matches. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=dismissals_per_inns;qualmin1=20;qualval1=matches;spanmin1=1+jan+1990;spanval1=span;template=results;type=fielding

[Brainfade]

I made that and many other points in post #9, but fanboyzz are accusing me of making up random stats because of my dislike for Dhoni. :dontknow: To give more concrete numbers, during Kirmani's time matches involving India saw 27.x wickets per match and during Dhoni's time it's up to 31.x wickets per match.

Raghav and L'E, good point! Of all the counterpoints on this thread, looking at their stats relative to total number of dismissals per match is the most valid. Bowler, pitch-quality and even peer-comparisons are like splitting hairs. Another consideration is that, back in the day, they didn't have to bowl 90 overs per day, did they? So, it would be interesting to normalize their total dismissals by the the number of balls to which they kept. May sway it completely back in SMH's favor.

[Brainfade]

I don't think it is even debatable. Almost all modern wicketkeepers have better dismissals/innings records than their older counterparts. Unfortunately Dhoni comes nowhere in his peer group. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;keeper=1;orderby=dismissals_per_inns;template=results;type=fielding Even Kamtran Akmal, after dropping so many of them, deliberately and not deliberately, has significantly higher dismissals per innings than Dhoni. Also I am sure Pakistan would have achieved fewer dismissals per innings in Kakmal's time that India in Dhoni's time.

Well, one must admit that the Paks have the greatest phaasht bowling talent ever giving Akmal a clear advantage :-)!

[fineleg]

Sadanand Viswanath had potential to be a great Indian wicket keeper/bat. But short lived due to a misfortune in his life.