Era of Fast bowling over?

[Vilander]

if the below list of bowlers were given time to prepare and asked to bowl a few deliveries as fast as possible for a speed test they would probably bowl this speed. 1, Tait - 155+ 2,Steyn- 152+ 3,Morkel-148+ 4,Yadav - 150+ 5,Irfan - 148+ 6,Riaz - 150+ 7,Best-152+ 8,Fidel-148+ 9,Malinga-145+ 10,Finn-150+ 11,Meaker-148+ 12,Aaron-148+ not to mention Lee,Akthar who would also have clocked 155+ in their prime. Really not sure whats on here about older generation being faster..agreed its romantic to think that way. But please..

[G_B_]

If Gavaskar' date=' Chappell, Richards et al. are telling me that Holding was really quick, I would take their word even if the speed gun was showing a reading of 100 kmph.[/quote'] I dont think anybody is denying that holding was quick. His average speed in that 1979 test was second only to Thompson. So he was probably the second quickest bowler in his era. The issue is, if he was as quick as those in the next gen. Taking your statement that players who have played for eg both Wasim and Holding say Holding was quicker. I dont think Gavaskar has played Wasim enough. When Wasim started out in 1985 he was a young kid still building up his pace. Chappell i dont think has faced Wasim. Even if he has, its barely enough to form an opinion. Obviously even bowlers have peaks. There will be a couple of years they are at their top probably in their late 20s. Where they bowl the fastest. We cant compare that to an 19 year old kid to somebody we faced in our prime as a batsman. Now as far as total balls bowled by Holding. Thats a highly inflated number where he bowled a lot of those in county cricket which has a less intensity and quite frankly he did not half care. I have seen Wasim bowler at Hampshire in the counties he was barely touching 80 mph in the match and was bowling well within himself. County cricket was the IPL of that era. Before WSC came along. A domestic tournament which paid as good as or better than international cricket. The windies pacers especially were well below par in terms of pace in the counties. Its a long season in England with the number of counties. They were there to bring in the crowds. International cricket will always remain the benchmark. It was televised and it was the peak when players raised their game. Players now a days play a lot more international cricket and have a much higher duration of intensity.

[G_B_]

if the below list of bowlers were given time to prepare and asked to bowl a few deliveries as fast as possible for a speed test they would probably bowl this speed. 1, Tait - 155+ 2,Steyn- 152+ 3,Morkel-148+ 4,Yadav - 150+ 5,Irfan - 148+ 6,Riaz - 150+ 7,Best-152+ 8,Fidel-148+ 9,Malinga-145+ 10,Finn-150+ 11,Meaker-148+ 12,Aaron-148+ not to mention Lee,Akthar who would also have clocked 155+ in their prime. Really not sure whats on here about older generation being faster..agreed its romantic to think that way. But please..

exactly. All the time in the world between deliveries and only 8 deliveries to bowl. The methodology in that test meant that the speeds were skewed on the upward side rather than ideal match situations. Forget cricket, in the 100m race we are constantly having less and less times. Atheletes are running more than more races. Humankind in general is getting faster as a result of using sports sciene and various legal supplements. Its the same issue when it comes to swimming. Fast bowling must be the only aspect of fitness and stamina in a major sport which has declined.

[The Outsider]

The fantasy that the present is phaashter continues. Well in the absence of incontrovertible proof, I will pass on the discussion, but the bowling averages are proof that phhaashter or not, the current generation is sh!ttier without any doubt, by a huge distance.

[saneindian]

The fantasy that the present is phaashter continues. Well in the absence of incontrovertible proof, I will pass on the discussion, but the bowling averages are proof that phhaashter or not, the current generation is sh!ttier without any doubt, by a huge distance.

What about the batting averages? :giggle:

[The Outsider]

What about the batting averages? :giggle:

Cricket has not produced a single all time great batsman or bowler for the last 10 years or so, except Steyn.

[Trichromatic]

Cricket has not produced a single all time great batsman or bowler for the last 10 years or so' date=' except Steyn.[/quote'] :agree: The fact that Steyn can average below 25 shows that lack of quality is main reason why bowlers aren't doing well.

[The Outsider]

I dont think anybody is denying that holding was quick. His average speed in that 1979 test was second only to Thompson. So he was probably the second quickest bowler in his era. The issue is, if he was as quick as those in the next gen. Taking your statement that players who have played for eg both Wasim and Holding say Holding was quicker. I dont think Gavaskar has played Wasim enough. When Wasim started out in 1985 he was a young kid still building up his pace. Chappell i dont think has faced Wasim. Even if he has, its barely enough to form an opinion. Obviously even bowlers have peaks. There will be a couple of years they are at their top probably in their late 20s. Where they bowl the fastest. We cant compare that to an 19 year old kid to somebody we faced in our prime as a batsman.

I named those cricketers as examples not specific to the discussion. Chappell has obviously never faced Akram, but my point is broader and even if you want to talk about Akram he bowled 80,000 deliveries, Waqar bowled 60,000.

Now as far as total balls bowled by Holding. Thats a highly inflated number where he bowled a lot of those in county cricket which has a less intensity and quite frankly he did not half care. I have seen Wasim bowler at Hampshire in the counties he was barely touching 80 mph in the match and was bowling well within himself. County cricket was the IPL of that era. Before WSC came along. A domestic tournament which paid as good as or better than international cricket. The windies pacers especially were well below par in terms of pace in the counties. Its a long season in England with the number of counties. They were there to bring in the crowds. International cricket will always remain the benchmark. It was televised and it was the peak when players raised their game. Players now a days play a lot more international cricket and have a much higher duration of intensity.

I don't agree with the above and WI cricketers, including Holding, are on record saying that they had to put in extra effort in county cricket to make sure they were part of the 2 international players selected by counties.

[G_B_]

well obviously they are not going to come out and say "it was just a pay day, we had it easy". Especially Holding who now commentates as part of the Sky team in the UK. As far as bowling skill goes, I agree that the quality of pace bowlers has declined.

[FischerTal]

kinda have to agree with Outy.... just look at the current fast bowling prospects Australia-Pattinson, Starc, Cummins India-Yadav, Sharma, Pakistan-Junaid, Irfan South Africa-Steyn, Philander, Morkel England-Anderson, Broad Sri Lanka- Malinga, Welegedara West Indies-Roach, Rampaul now really, out of all these, who do you think will ever compare to the likes of Holding, Marshall, Donald, Wasim, Waqar, and Mcgrath apart from Steyn? I dont even rate Philander because I think he will be a total bum on flat tracks. we have already seen his glorious average in Australia where tailor-made pattas were served up

[G_B_]

we are talking primarily about speeds. 99% of people will agree that the quality of bowlers has declined. Glen McGrath was hardly express pace.

[The Outsider]

well obviously they are not going to come out and say "it was just a pay day, we had it easy". Especially Holding who now commentates as part of the Sky team in the UK.

So, it's a case of your word versus mine - your and mine implying the statements from different people, not personally you and me. I would pick the word of people who actually played over ones sitting on the sidelines.

As far as bowling skill goes, I agree that the quality of pace bowlers has declined.

I would go further and say that the overall quality of cricket has declined, not just fast bowling.

[CG]

Pitches have had a lot to do with fast bowling averages.Even on a slightly helpful track batting teams struggle nowadays.Sa had bowlers like ntini who were great on pitches in sa where it helped them away they struggled still ended averaging 28.

[FischerTal]

we are talking primarily about speeds. 99% of people will agree that the quality of bowlers has declined. Glen McGrath was hardly express pace.

but i dont understand this obsession with pace. whats so good about pace if you cant control it? Holding and co. combined pace with control.....something lacking in today's bowlers. just take yadav and tait for example.

[The Outsider]

we are talking primarily about speeds. 99% of people will agree that the quality of bowlers has declined. Glen McGrath was hardly express pace.

But why focus so much on pace - something which can't be proved decisively this way or that as demonstrated on this thread? Why not focus on the quality of pace bowling? :dontknow:

[G_B_]

So, it's a case of your word versus mine - your and mine implying the statements from different people, not personally you and me. I would pick the word of people who actually played over ones sitting on the sidelines. I would go further and say that the overall quality of cricket has declined, not just fast bowling.

Well do you believe all the statements coming out? During the IPL you had steyn coming out and saying he was impressed with Ishant Sharma and vinay Kumar annd implied they would become great bowlers. Not to mention Alan donald and his statements in the IPL. With such statements coming out i will gladly sit on the sidelines. Speaking of Holding, Tony Cozier nailed it,

Although Michael Holding's aversion to the concept of Twenty20 is so strong he won't commentate on it, has agreed to be a CPL ambassador. Holding explains what appears to be a contradiction: "The CPL is looking at a development programme which they will start rolling out in January 2014, I understand. They will have about 60 young cricketers, 10 from each of the six franchise regions, who they will put on contract and create programmes to improve their cricket. That is what I am interested in…if we can develop some young cricketers in the Caribbean, even if a lot of them are tempted to play Twenty20 cricket, then maybe we can still find one or two who are quite happy and even capable of playing Test cricket too."

http://www.espncricinfo.com/caribbean-premier-league-2013/content/current/story/658741.html And its just one happy coincidence that Holding eased up on the critic of the IPL cause his wife was part of the production team. There is sidelines and there is seeing through bullshit. I agree that the quality of cricket has declined.

[adi B]

no. of quality bowlers have gone down thanks to the pitches which have become a joke nowadays,we find flat or close to placid tracks in most countries hence the bowlers aint getting much help from the wkt but the quality of batsmen nowadays (particularly after advent of t20s) has regressed as well..thus we have handful of batsmen averaging 50+ and bowlers averaging sub 27 since 2000

[The Outsider]

Well do you believe all the statements coming out? During the IPL you had steyn coming out and saying he was impressed with Ishant Sharma and vinay Kumar annd implied they would become great bowlers. Not to mention Alan donald and his statements in the IPL. With such statements coming out i will gladly sit on the sidelines. Speaking of Holding, Tony Cozier nailed it, http://www.espncricinfo.com/caribbean-premier-league-2013/content/current/story/658741.html And its just one happy coincidence that Holding eased up on the critic of the IPL cause his wife was part of the production team. There is sidelines and there is seeing through bullshit. I agree that the quality of cricket has declined.

Well I won't quibble over a mile per hour here or there, as long as we agree that Holding, Marshall were significantly better than Anderson and Zaheer, which I imagine was the purpose of the OP.

[The Outsider]

no. of quality bowlers have gone down thanks to the pitches which have become a joke nowadays' date='we find flat or close to placid tracks in most countries hence the bowlers aint getting much help from the wkt but the quality of batsmen nowadays (particularly after advent of t20s) has regressed as well..thus we have handful of batsmen averaging 50+ and bowlers averaging sub 27 since 2000[/quote'] Then why don't we have batsmen averaging 60-70 if pitches are the main reason? Just accept it, that the overall quality of cricket is down the toilet.

[div]

:agree: The fact that Steyn can average below 25 shows that lack of quality is main reason why bowlers aren't doing well.

Venky Prasad has better bowling average than Ishant. Samaraweera has better batting average than Aravinda De Silva.