Indian Mujahideen head Yasin Bhatkal arrested

[Clarke]

Guess I wasn't wrong in my earlier assessment of posters equating terrorism to Muslim support.

I think that is where we fundamentally differ - there are trolls like Diggi Raja and Swamy and there are the actually policy makers like Sonia' date=' Modi, Advani etc. I am not ignoring the rest of your post, but want this trollbaazi to be cast aside if we can.[/quote'] How about our current External Affairs Minister Khurshid & Home Minister Shinde ? Are they part time secular trolls who have no idea on voting patterns despite being at the highest levels for so long ? I'm not 100% confident on how it these comments influence minority voters but you in all wisdom know better, maybe because it gives you the claim of being secular and command the high horse while others are automatically communal because they raised a question.

[The Outsider]

And is Swamy part of ruling government. Do you know there is a difference in Digvijay and Swamy designation. If Swamy says something of this sort while being in government hang him but to justify Diggi raja comment by equating it to Swamy is something a true secular can do. After all you are inclusive by your thought.

What official position does Diggi Raja occupy in the government. He is Congress' designated troll.

How about our current External Affairs Minister Khurshid & Home Minister Shinde ? Are they part time secular trolls who have no idea on voting patterns despite being at the highest levels for so long ? I'm not 100% confident on how it these comments influence minority voters but you in all wisdom know better' date=' maybe because it gives you the claim of being secular and command the high horse while others are automatically communal because they raised a question.[/quote'] Can you point me to statements from Khurshid and Shinde where they are appeasing Muslims on the terrorism issue? I haven't come across them, but might have missed them. The onus is on you to prove that Indian Muslims get appeased and vote on the basis of sympathetic statements to terrorism, because you have made the claim that such statements are being made to capture the minority vote. I've already explained that the silence on the details is because there are foreign governments involved in these arrests.

[coffee_rules]

What official position does Diggi Raja occupy in the government. He is Congress' designated troll. Can you point me to statements from Khurshid and Shinde where they are appeasing Muslims on the terrorism issue? I haven't come across them, but might have missed them. The onus is on you to prove that Indian Muslims get appeased and vote on the basis of sympathetic statements to terrorism, because you have made the claim that such statements are being made to capture the minority vote. I've already explained that the silence on the details is because there are foreign governments involved in these arrests.

It is hard to believe that US/UAE/Saudi which might have supplied intelligence doesn't want to be embarrassed or hurt it's relations with Pak of all countries. What do they have to lose or get from Pak in return? Read this to see what US has done to hurt Pak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_Jahangir#Assassination_Attempts I doubt if any country wants India to be silent so that they will hurt their relationship with Pak. UAE/Saudi are on the giving end to Pak (let their nationals work in their countries etc.)

[The Outsider]

It is hard to believe that US/UAE/Saudi which might have supplied intelligence doesn't want to be embarrassed or hurt it's relations with Pak of all countries. What do they have to lose or get from Pak in return? Read this to see what US has done to hurt Pak http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asma_Jahangir#Assassination_Attempts I doubt if any country wants India to be silent so that they will hurt their relationship with Pak. UAE/Saudi are on the giving end to Pak (let their nationals work in their countries etc.)

I am not making this up - this is stuff which can be easily recounted based on media reports. Remember the arrest from Saudi Arabia, how it made the papers and media and in a couple of days there was zero mention about it across all media outlets, same for the UAE angle in Tunda's arrest. Not the US, they are too big for anyone, but countries like Saudi and UAE have strong diplomatic and other ties with Pakistan and if they have helped in the arrest of someone for India, would keep it under the wraps. It serves Indian interests as well because they will not offer future support if their role gets publicized. Anyways, Bhatkal is an Indian criminal. It makes no sense for the Bihar police to take custody of him. It's like if Osama was caught in California and they refuse to hand him over to the FBI/CIA.

[seedhi]

What official position does Diggi Raja occupy in the government. He is Congress' designated troll. Can you point me to statements from Khurshid and Shinde where they are appeasing Muslims on the terrorism issue? I haven't come across them, but might have missed them.

The Union Minister of Minority Affairs K. Rahman is on record saying that Muslims believe that the Indian Mujahideen does not exist and that no one knows its operational details. This is what a Union Minister in the UPA govt says:

"As far as the IM is concerned, nobody knows what it is, where it was formed, how it was formed and who runs it." http://m.indianexpress.com/news/muslims-dont-believe-im-exists-says-rahman-khan/1146909/

This after the NIA and Delhi Police have filed extensive chargesheets and prosecuted IM members in various bomb blasts. By the way, his predecessor, AR Antulay had also publicly claimed (while being a Union Minister) in the aftermath of 26/11/08 that the attacks could have been done by "saffron" terrorists and that Hemant Karkare was assassinated by them and the Mumbai police was covering things up. Shinde recently made the claim that RSS and BJP are running terrorist training camps - he is the home minister of the country. So let us not pretend that Digvijaya is the only one. And this is not trolling, but a careful strategy of feeding the paranoia and insecurity to their electoral benefit .. to hell with the impact on internal security.

[The Outsider]

The Union Minister of Minority Affairs K. Rahman is on record saying that Muslims believe that the Indian Mujahideen does not exist and that no one knows its operational details. This is what a Union Minister in the UPA govt says: This after the NIA and Delhi Police have filed extensive chargesheets and prosecuted IM members in various bomb blasts.

From your link:

Speaking to The Indian Express, Khan said: “Unlike other organisations, the Muslim community is not buying its existence in the country... As far as the IM is concerned, nobody knows what it is, where it was formed, how it was formed and who runs it.” Asked if he was denying the existence of the outfit, Khan said he was neither denying nor questioning anything, but pointed out that “the community has that feeling”.

When the entire IM thing came out there were posters on ICF even from the right of spectrum who were skeptical of it's existence and thought it to be a front for LeT.

By the way, his predecessor, AR Antulay had also publicly claimed (while being a Union Minister) in the aftermath of 26/11/08 that the attacks could have been done by "saffron" terrorists and that Hemant Karkare was assassinated by them and the Mumbai police was covering things up.

Please provide links, so I can read the statements in context.

Shinde recently made the claim that RSS and BJP are running terrorist training camps - he is the home minister of the country.

I might be wrong, but as far as I recall he said RSS is running terror camps, which is a fair assumption given the involvement of the RSS cadre in riots and terrorism, at least circumstantially I don't think he referred to the BJP.

So let us not pretend that Digvijaya is the only one. And this is not trolling, but a careful strategy of feeding the paranoia and insecurity to their electoral benefit .. to hell with the impact on internal security.

So you think Indian Muslims vote as a bank for people supporting terrorism?

[surajmal]

NYPD Designates Mosques as Terrorism Organizations

http://nation.time.com/2013/08/28/nypd-designates-mosques-as-terrorism-organizations/ :giggle:

[seedhi]

From your link: When the entire IM thing came out there were posters on ICF even from the right of spectrum who were skeptical of it's existence and thought it to be a front for LeT.

This quote is from July 2013, not from 2008. By this time the NIA/Delhi Police/Mah. ATS have already filed chargesheets and convicted IM operatives. Clearly the union minister cannot pretend to be in the dark about this.

Please provide links, so I can read the statements in context.

Here you go http://zeenews.india.com/nation/2008-12-17/491692news.html . This is what he said:

Maintaining that "there is more than what meets the eyes", Antulay said Karkare was investigating some cases in which "there are non-Muslims also", an apparent reference to the Malegaon blasts case in which sadhvi Pragya Thakur and a Lt Colonel Shrikant Prasad Purohit were among the 11 persons to be arrested. "Superficially speaking they (terrorists) had no reason to kill Karkare. Whether he (Karkare) was victim of terrorism or terrorism plus something. I do not know," he added.

This statement by Antulay was on Dec 17, 2008, by which time the Indian govt had already blamed LeT/ISI for the attacks and Ajmal Kasab had spilled the beans.

I might be wrong, but as far as I recall he said RSS is running terror camps, which is a fair assumption given the involvement of the RSS cadre in riots and terrorism, at least circumstantially I don't think he referred to the BJP.

You ARE wrong. He specifically mentioned the BJP and the RSS.

"One on hand we are trying to bring peace in this country. We are also taking steps against injustice to minorities as also against infiltration. But, in the midst of all this, we have got an investigation report that be it the RSS or BJP, their training camps are promoting Hindu terrorism. We are keeping a strict vigil on all this," Mr Shinde said at the AICC session here. http://www.indianexpress.com/news/bjp-rss-conducting-terror-training-camps-sushil-kumar-shinde/1062119

This is the video if you care [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONM3NL5jr1E]Sushil Kumar Shinde statement about RSS / BJP running Terror Camp - YouTube[/ame] . And by the way, how is he justified as the home minister in accusing RSS of running terrorist training camps? If he had any evidence (which he did not, given his subsequent retraction and apology), he should have initiated a ban on the RSS and the BJP and prosecuted those responsible for running the camps, rather than making this bizarre claim at the AICC meeting.

So you think Indian Muslims vote as a bank for people supporting terrorism?

I believe that the Congress strategy is to promote insecurity or exaggerate it amongst Muslims, so that it reaps the electoral rewards.

[rkt.india]

RSS terrorist camps, really! People need to get some sanity :giggle:, especially these politicians. These people first need to attend RSS camps and Shakhas only then they will know what happens there.

[Clarke]

Can you point me to statements from Khurshid and Shinde where they are appeasing Muslims on the terrorism issue? I haven't come across them, but might have missed them. The onus is on you to prove that Indian Muslims get appeased and vote on the basis of sympathetic statements to terrorism, because you have made the claim that such statements are being made to capture the minority vote. I've already explained that the silence on the details is because there are foreign governments involved in these arrests.

The idea isn't about directly encouraging terror but suggesting that genuine cases of terror are fake and encouraging the victim mindset among minority groups. That's what Farooqi was hinting at and has been mentioned multiple times in the recent past. Khurshid in Azamgarh, Feb 2012: Soniaji cried after seeing pictures of the Batla house encounter and ordered a thorough probe. Shinde earlier this year: One on hand we are trying to bring peace in this country. We are also taking steps against injustice to minorities as also against infiltration. But, in the midst of all this, we have got an investigation report that be it the RSS or BJP, their training camps are promoting Hindu terrorism. There will without question be some percentage of minorities in India that will deny IM or AQ for that matter. I don't have an exact numbers on that but if most of the muslim world believes 9/11 was staged (there's a pew poll on that), India cannot be outright different. You can argue India is different in some ways but the number in question is nowhere near absolute zero.

[King Tendulkar]

Politicians in India are disgusting. Desperate for muslim votes. Bihar is point in case. When pak commits disgisting stuff like soldier beheading people like Nitish Kumar and laloo were desperate to back pakistan and support them. India politics stinks

[King Tendulkar]

RSS terrorist camps' date=' really! People need to get some sanity :giggle:, especially these politicians. These people first need to attend RSS camps and Shakhas only then they will know what happens there.[/quote'] It doesnt suit their secular stand point. Or as I call it their desperation for muslim votes!! To be so called secular you have to say musilms are not only ones who do terrorism, hindus do as much as well. Some so called secular posters also desperatre to behave like these secular politicians:hysterical:

[coffee_rules]

Perfect example of secularist, half Kashmiri Pandit at that, who blatantly plays to the victims' gallery. sHuHZkTfSNY From 4:32 with Zakir Naik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sHuHZkTfSNY#t=272 From 5:11 on how to campaign for Congress using the Muslim Vote Bank politics: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sHuHZkTfSNY#t=312

[The Outsider]

This quote is from July 2013, not from 2008. By this time the NIA/Delhi Police/Mah. ATS have already filed chargesheets and convicted IM operatives. Clearly the union minister cannot pretend to be in the dark about this.

As I said when the entire IM thing came out initially, even people from the right thought it's just a front for LeT.

Here you go http://zeenews.india.com/nation/2008-12-17/491692news.html . This is what he said: This statement by Antulay was on Dec 17, 2008, by which time the Indian govt had already blamed LeT/ISI for the attacks and Ajmal Kasab had spilled the beans.

That's a BS statement and I have no issues saying so.

You ARE wrong. He specifically mentioned the BJP and the RSS. This is the video if you care

.

Another piece of BS and again I have no issues in saying so.

And by the way, how is he justified as the home minister in accusing RSS of running terrorist training camps? If he had any evidence (which he did not, given his subsequent retraction and apology), he should have initiated a ban on the RSS and the BJP and prosecuted those responsible for running the camps, rather than making this bizarre claim at the AICC meeting.

He is not justified at all - he referred to a report, he should have made that report public to back up his claims.

I believe that the Congress strategy is to promote insecurity or exaggerate it amongst Muslims, so that it reaps the electoral rewards.

But the reality is that Muslims die as much as Hindus as a result of terrorism - when a bomb goes off it does not ask the religion of the person dying and there is close to zero support or sympathy for terrorists among Indian Muslims. So the question remains, how does this help parties gain any votes.

[The Outsider]

The idea isn't about directly encouraging terror but suggesting that genuine cases of terror are fake and encouraging the victim mindset among minority groups. That's what Farooqi was hinting at and has been mentioned multiple times in the recent past.

But how does that translate into votes? Personally, I am yet to come across an Indian Muslim who would make his voting decision based on statements supporting terrorism. And having lived in old Lucknow for a large part of my life, I can certainly lay a claim to having more interaction with Muslims than most others on ICF.

Khurshid in Azamgarh, Feb 2012: Soniaji cried after seeing pictures of the Batla house encounter and ordered a thorough probe.

Difference is that Khurshid did not back it up like Diggy Raja once the judgment came out. It was a deplorable statement, nonetheless.

Shinde earlier this year: One on hand we are trying to bring peace in this country. We are also taking steps against injustice to minorities as also against infiltration. But, in the midst of all this, we have got an investigation report that be it the RSS or BJP, their training camps are promoting Hindu terrorism.

Yeah, I agree that is a completely messed up statement. If there was an investigation report indicating such a thing he should have made it public to back it up, quite obviously there was none.

There will without question be some percentage of minorities in India that will deny IM or AQ for that matter. I don't have an exact numbers on that but if most of the muslim world believes 9/11 was staged (there's a pew poll on that), India cannot be outright different. You can argue India is different in some ways but the number in question is nowhere near absolute zero.

Okay, it's definitely not absolute zero. If that was the case there would have been no IM. However, in my experience it is so tiny that it will have zero impact in elections.

[seedhi]

But the reality is that Muslims die as much as Hindus as a result of terrorism - when a bomb goes off it does not ask the religion of the person dying and there is close to zero support or sympathy for terrorists among Indian Muslims. So the question remains' date=' [b']how does this help parties gain any votes.

I think that it helps the Congress in not losing too many Muslim votes. A heightened feeling of persecution amongst Muslims will be a distraction to the more serious issues of economy and corruption on which the UPA has no leg to stand upon. But I think they have gone overboard with this strategy in recent times, and it may lead to some polarization in the majority community also, and of course, more importantly, a serious loss of credibility in the government.

[gs]

I think that it helps the Congress in not losing too many Muslim votes. A heightened feeling of persecution amongst Muslims will be a distraction to the more serious issues of economy and corruption on which the UPA has no leg to stand upon. But I think they have gone overboard with this strategy in recent times' date= and it may lead to some polarization in the majority community also, and of course, more importantly, a serious loss of credibility in the government.

+1. 2 terms of UPA governance has sealed that.

[The Outsider]

I think that it helps the Congress in not losing too many Muslim votes. A heightened feeling of persecution amongst Muslims will be a distraction to the more serious issues of economy and corruption on which the UPA has no leg to stand upon. But I think they have gone overboard with this strategy in recent times' date= and it may lead to some polarization in the majority community also, and of course, more importantly, a serious loss of credibility in the government.

But my question is why would Muslims feel persecuted on the terrorism angle? Yeah, I can understand minority reservation, the first claim on natural resources kind of statements being made and Muslims getting influenced by them to an extent when it's time for the vote. But acts of terrorism do not go down well within the Muslim community in general, so how do these statements win or avoid losing votes except for the fringe IM types?

[seedhi]

But my question is why would Muslims feel persecuted on the terrorism angle? Yeah' date=' I can understand minority reservation, the first claim on natural resources kind of statements being made and Muslims getting influenced by them to an extent when it's time for the vote. But acts of terrorism do not go down well within the Muslim community in general, so how do these statements win or avoid losing votes except for the fringe IM types?[/quote']I think there is a substantial constituency for conspiracy theories amongst Muslims (and possibly Hindus too). These theories have been finding traction in various urdu newspapers also. After all Digvijaya released a book, by the editor of an urdu newspaper, which blamed RSS for 26/11. Clearly, there is a legitimate grievance resulting from shoddy police work in some terrorism cases. But the Congress strategy is to exaggerate and fan the flames to suggest that without them in power, the Muslims would continue to be wrongly blamed for terrorism. The irony being that most of the places (Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh etc) where innocent Muslims were charged with terrorism were/are ruled by the Congress.

[Clarke]

But how does that translate into votes? Personally, I am yet to come across an Indian Muslim who would make his voting decision based on statements supporting terrorism. And having lived in old Lucknow for a large part of my life, I can certainly lay a claim to having more interaction with Muslims than most others on ICF. Okay, it's definitely not absolute zero. If that was the case there would have been no IM. However, in my experience it is so tiny that it will have zero impact in elections.

So its your anecdotal evidence based on personal interactions. I could bring some of mine as well from educated folks in India and abroad who would deny the holocaust or 9/11 in their comfort zones. I wouldn't expect IM to be far different but mentioning that in front of majority community can be risky. Whether encouraging the victim mentality translates into votes or not is extremely difficult to prove though, but the pandering is quite excessive.