Dhoni the greatest Finisher top 20 Match winning innings

[vvvslaxman]

As i said before, 12 matches in the WC and he averages 34 (boosted heavily by not outs) http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?caughthigh=;enddefault=2013-07-11;conchigh=;conclow=;wicketslow=;dismissal=0;runslow=;playerid=7593;bowposition=0;homeaway=0;dismissalslow=;scheduleddays=0;notopposition=0;stumpedhigh=;finals=0;dismissalshigh=;end=2013-07-11;viewtype=aro_list;groundid=0;daynight=0;captain=0;startdefault=2004-12-23;continent=0;notcountry=0;innings=0;class=odiplayer;caughtlow=;team=0;result=0;season=0;start=2004-12-23;caughttype=0;bpof=0;seriesresult=0;opposition=0;submit=1;csearch=;ballshigh=;stumpedlow=;wicketshigh=;country=0;toss=0;overslow=;filter=basic;sdb=player;tourneyid=2;runshigh=;scheduledovers=0;dnp=0;overshigh=;ballslow=;batposition=0;followon=0;recent=;keeper=0;.cgifields=viewtype barring that 91 not out his next highest score is 34. Champions Trophy 11 matches averages 20 with the bat and a highest score of 51. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/guru?caughthigh=;enddefault=2013-07-11;conchigh=;conclow=;wicketslow=;dismissal=0;runslow=;playerid=7593;bowposition=0;homeaway=0;dismissalslow=;scheduleddays=0;notopposition=0;stumpedhigh=;finals=0;dismissalshigh=;end=2013-07-11;viewtype=aro_list;groundid=0;daynight=0;captain=0;startdefault=2004-12-23;continent=0;notcountry=0;innings=0;class=odiplayer;caughtlow=;team=0;result=0;season=0;start=2004-12-23;caughttype=0;bpof=0;seriesresult=0;opposition=0;submit=1;csearch=;ballshigh=;stumpedlow=;wicketshigh=;country=0;toss=0;overslow=;filter=basic;sdb=player;tourneyid=34;runshigh=;scheduledovers=0;dnp=0;overshigh=;ballslow=;batposition=0;followon=0;recent=;keeper=0;.cgifields=viewtype So your talking about a guy who has basically got 2 50s in major ODI tournaments over a period of about 23 matches over the past 7/8 years. You compre MSD's stats in major tournaments to somebody like Zaheer and Sachin and you can see both of these guys have performed in major tournaments and have averages more (less in case of bowling stats) than their career average Now Virat Kohli is a young man and can very well be a winner for India but i think even he is another guy who averages significantly lower than his career average than in major tournaments. Though Dhoni will do down as an ODI great for India. I will always rate Yuvraj Singh higher than him. In 2007 T20 WC and in 2011 Yuvi was a major force (2011 especially) who helped India win with bat and ball. IMO Yuvraj Sachin Dev daylight MSD

corrected

[velu]

corrected

Or he meant daylight between Msd and others ;)

[G_B_]

actually I would think it "mattered" the most when we were setting a target v Pakistan. 260 was just not enough, but Pakistan choked as usual. or even the champions trophy final. You do realise in order to get to the finals somebody has to play well right? The team does not naturally just reach the finals. @VVS its implied.... its an opinion after all..... For all the greatness of Dhoni. He has one innings in tournaments that mattered....

[vvvslaxman]

actually I would think it "mattered" the most when we were setting a target v Pakistan. 260 was just not enough, but Pakistan choked as usual. or even the champions trophy final. You do realise in order to get to the finals somebody has to play well right? The team does not naturally just reach the finals. @VVS its implied.... its an opinion after all..... For all the greatness of Dhoni. He has one innings in tournaments that mattered....

If you are looking and assessing a career of players you don't look at players performing just in world cup and failing in other places. You keep forgetting he is not an opening batsman. Inspite of that he has been consistent enough to average 50. Fact that he has the reputation allows others to play freely. Inzamam, Mike Hussey both are epic failures in world cup matches. They are specialist batsmen unlike Dhoni who comes down the order and yet averages more than Tendulkar/Yuvraj anybody ever played for India. He is 4th in the all time list. If you leave out Tendoscate who didn't play enough he is third behind Amla/Bevan. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/282911.html

[G_B_]

If you are looking and assessing a career of players you don't look at players performing just in world cup and failing in other places. You keep forgetting he is not an opening batsman. Inspite of that he has been consistent enough to average 50. Fact that he has the reputation allows others to play freely. Inzamam, Mike Hussey both are epic failures in world cup matches. They are specialist batsmen unlike Dhoni who comes down the order and yet averages more than Tendulkar/Yuvraj anybody ever played for India. He is 4th in the all time list. If you leave out Tendoscate who didn't play enough he is third behind Amla/Bevan. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/records/282911.html

its a difference of opinion. For me the world cups and major tournaments matter. I dont mind India losing 20 ODIs in a row provided we win the WC. I will snap that offer up unless a better offer comes. I will take it over India winning 20 ODIs on the trott and then not winning the WC. A lot of Bevans and MSD's averages are boosted by not outs. Both batted in the role of finisher. Clearly its not wise to compare an opener to a finisher or somebody like Yuvi who has played at 3-4 for most of his career. Look at MSD's stats. Nearly 25% of the time he came to bat he was not out. A lot of those situations were comfortable for him not to take many risks. Same for Bevan. I am not suggesting that MSD is a bad player. I think i would rate him as being the 4th or 5th best Indian ODI player. Seems like a fair call on my part.

[vvvslaxman]

its a difference of opinion. For me the world cups and major tournaments matter. I dont mind India losing 20 ODIs in a row provided we win the WC. I will snap that offer up unless a better offer comes. I will take it over India winning 20 ODIs on the trott and then not winning the WC. A lot of Bevans and MSD's averages are boosted by not outs. Both batted in the role of finisher. Clearly its not wise to compare an opener to a finisher or somebody like Yuvi who has played at 3-4 for most of his career. Look at MSD's stats. Nearly 25% of the time he came to bat he was not out. A lot of those situations were comfortable for him not to take many risks. Same for Bevan. I am not suggesting that MSD is a bad player. I think i would rate him as being the 4th or 5th best Indian ODI player. Seems like a fair call on my part.

In that case we can have our own opinion world cup final is more important than any other matches in world cup. Another thing you can't score 7000 runs by remaining not out. Otherwise Muralitharan would have better career record. Steve Waugh has scored 7589 runs and remained 58 times not out. He averages only 32.90 at an SR of 75.91. Dhoni 7358 runs 57 times not out. Averaging 51.45 at a strike rate of 88.

[maniac]

In that case we can have our own opinion world cup final is more important than any other matches in world cup. Another thing you can't score 7000 runs by remaining not out. Otherwise Muralitharan would have better career record. Steve Waugh has scored 7589 runs and remained 58 times not out. He averages only 32.90 at an SR of 75.91. Dhoni 7358 runs 57 times not out. Averaging 51.45 at a strike rate of 88.

Dude you are going in circles here.......Let us take guys like Desilva,Ponting,Richards etc they all played brilliant innings in WC finals but that is just a minor part of their legacy but with Dhoni unfortunately that innings which was not even the best innings in the game turned out to be his only legacy....That there lies the difference...Thank you very much.

[vvvslaxman]

Dude you are going in circles here.......Let us take guys like Desilva' date=Ponting,Richards etc they all played brilliant innings in WC finals but that is just a minor part of their legacy but with Dhoni unfortunately that innings which was not even the best innings in the game turned out to be his only legacy....That there lies the difference...Thank you very much.

Right back at you

[Crookbond]

Dude you are going in circles here.......Let us take guys like Desilva' date='Ponting,Richards etc they all played brilliant innings in WC finals but that is just a minor part of their legacy [b']but with Dhoni unfortunately that innings which was not even the best innings in the game turned out to be his only legacy....That there lies the difference...Thank you very much.

:hysterical: :hysterical: Looks like computer is still getting assembled.

[G_B_]

In that case we can have our own opinion world cup final is more important than any other matches in world cup. Another thing you can't score 7000 runs by remaining not out. Otherwise Muralitharan would have better career record. Steve Waugh has scored 7589 runs and remained 58 times not out. He averages only 32.90 at an SR of 75.91. Dhoni 7358 runs 57 times not out. Averaging 51.45 at a strike rate of 88.

your missing the point. nobody is saying Dhoni is not a great ODI player. All i am saying is he fails the metric of performing at major ODI competitions. Which is why i will rate somebody like Sachin and Yuvi higher than him then it comes to judging the best Indian ODI player of all time. Its a case of comparing first among equals. I also feel the world cup final is a stand alone event. For example if India lose 10 matches before the world cup is an independent event from the world cup. While, unless somebody performs in the groups qf and semis , Dhoni would not have the chance to play in the finals. Ie they are linked. your always building upon somebody's performances in the previous matches

[Crookbond]

your missing the point. nobody is saying Dhoni is not a great ODI player. All i am saying is he fails the metric of performing at major ODI competitions. Which is why i will rate somebody like Sachin and Yuvi higher than him then it comes to judging the best Indian ODI player of all time. Its a case of comparing first among equals. I also feel the world cup final is not a stand alone event. For example if India lose 10 matches before the world cup is an independent event from the world cup. While, unless somebody performs in the groups qf and semis , Dhoni would not have the chance to play in the finals. Ie they are linked.

You may not but others will soon get there. For now we already have been told that Dhoni's 91 in the WC final is the ONLY legacy he has.

[velu]

:hysterical: :hysterical: Looks like computer is still getting assembled.

And his kid is playing with the keyboard Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

[SLICKR392]

And his kid is playing with the keyboard Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 4

Why drag them into these retarded and pointless SRT vs MSD debates on ICF?

[Crookbond]

Velu - No kids or wife yaar. :whack: Compooter is fine.

[G_B_]

You may not but others will soon get there. For now we already have been told that Dhoni's 91 in the WC final is the ONLY legacy he has.

well then thats their problem. To be fair to manic, he too believes Dhoni is a great ODI player. but disagrees with the hype surrounding Dhoni. Its a fair assumption for him to make. On this board itself, we seem to have many Dhonistas which could be a result of being a good captain (I believe he is in the ODIs), those admiring him for his looks or even those who like him cause he captains their fav franchise in addition to be a very good wicket keeper batsman.

[vvvslaxman]

your missing the point. nobody is saying Dhoni is not a great ODI player. All i am saying is he fails the metric of performing at major ODI competitions. Which is why i will rate somebody like Sachin and Yuvi higher than him then it comes to judging the best Indian ODI player of all time. Its a case of comparing first among equals. I also feel the world cup final is a stand alone event. For example if India lose 10 matches before the world cup is an independent event from the world cup. While, unless somebody performs in the groups qf and semis , Dhoni would not have the chance to play in the finals. Ie they are linked. your always building upon somebody's performances in the previous matches

Unless somebody performs in final the most important match in any sports, whatever you do before is useless. So performance in the final outweighs everything else. Pressure of delivering in the final is much higher than preliminary rounds. Besides the point Dhoni is not a top order batsman where he gets 40 to 50 overs consistently every match . Odds of a top order bat clicking in one or two matches is much higher than someone coming down the order and clicking consistently.

[Raghav_12]

Dude you are going in circles here.......Let us take guys like Desilva' date='Ponting,Richards etc they all played brilliant innings in WC finals but that is just a minor part of their legacy but with Dhoni unfortunately that innings [b']which was not even the best innings in the game turned out to be his only legacy....That there lies the difference...Thank you very much.

very true. In fact innings which at best was the third best of the match being touted as if it was Kapil's 175.

[maniac]

Unless somebody performs in final the most important match in any sports' date=' whatever you do before is useless. So performance in the final outweighs everything else. [b']Pressure of delivering in the final is much higher than preliminary rounds. Besides the point Dhoni is not a top order batsman where he gets 40 to 50 overs consistently every match . Odds of a top order bat clicking in one or two matches is much higher than someone coming down the order and clicking consistently.

Ok....In that case, the innings delivered by Gambhir and Jaya in their respective situations in that game already outweighs that....whic make his the 3rd best innings but credit where due a terrific innings. In the WC he was outperformed by SRT,Zak,Yuvi,Gambhir,Raina and Kohli....he picked up the scraps and all of a sudden,he is the best of all time....really? Go back to the OP and look at the innings i listed,tell me the 2nd best innings comparable to that one against a team not named Srilanka. Collectively Dhoni is good as a Capt-WK-Bat and that is where he might move ahead of some other players but individually as a bat he is not what he is made out to be.

[SLICKR392]

same old *******pa again n again... players like Dhoni are a rarity..just like sachin n few others...I m glad that he plays for India...

++ No wonder we have a ****ed up, obnoxiously disgraceful fan base. Its individual over the team everytime. And that BS norm flows strongly through ICF.

[vvvslaxman]

Ok....In that case, the innings delivered by Gambhir and Jaya in their respective situations in that game already outweighs that....whic make his the 3rd best innings but credit where due a terrific innings. In the WC he was outperformed by SRT,Zak,Yuvi,Gambhir,Raina and Kohli....he picked up the scraps and all of a sudden,he is the best of all time....really? Go back to the OP and look at the innings i listed,tell me the 2nd best innings comparable to that one against a team not named Srilanka. Collectively Dhoni is good as a Capt-WK-Bat and that is where he might move ahead of some other players but individually as a bat he is not what he is made out to be.

3rd best innings won man of the match award :giggle: