This is why we have trundlers?

[msb1991]

This to me looks dangerous not playing ur best squad in the ODI format unless off course u do not want to win multi-nation tournaments - talking about steyn and the SA policy. Always pick your best squad even if it means the fellow plays 5 yrs less.

You've very much simplified by removing the issues of short-term fatigue. Dale Steyn is always well-rested for Test matches. This means he can perform at his best in Test matches and this is one of the reasons why he has performed so well for such a long period of time. The likes of Waqar and Ian Bishop who had similarly prolific starts to their career tailed off after a few years due to injuries. Steyn has done no such thing. It is not only a case of securing someone's career length but also the quality of the career that they have.

[maniac]

The performances and records of the great fast bowlers in county cricket showed they were not taking it easy.

not saying they were entirely casual or the intensity was not there.....all i am saying is the pressure/stress of bowling say 5000 deliveries in international games,ipl etc is more than bowling 10000 deliveries in international(given the amount played in those days)+county cricket. more chance of the body breaking down....so one cant afford to play county as the stakes everwhere else are pretty high

[jalebi_bhai]

do you think apart from Umesh any of our paratha dosa bowlers do this ?

I love bringing out this video....... 4zMsCoXEFGk

[SLICKR392]

There needs to be a change in the philosophical approach of coaching a fast bowler....If Umesh sprays at 150' date=he shouldn't be asked to slow down to maintain accuracy,rather figure out a way to keep his pace and become more accurate.

Totally agreed. But that's the job of Dawes to talk him into it.

[maniac]

Totally agreed. But that's the job of Dawes to talk him into it.

its disgusting that BCCI with the billions they make cant even afford to hire a half decent coaching staff....Fletcher is understandable, as atleast he has some reputation, but the rest of the support staff is plain just pathetic

[msb1991]

do you think apart from Umesh any of our paratha dosa bowlers do this ?

Absolutely not. International teams get a lot of physical training but this is Johnson doing stuff on his own time. Strength and power training is a key reason how England produce so many bowlers who bowl at 140kph. If you liked the Johnson video, you'll love this... [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX-L7iBGNEQ]Brett Lee Biography - The Art of Fast Bowling - YouTube[/ame]

[msb1991]

I love bringing out this video.......

There was so much hype over his training. It is standard power training performed to a high standard. I think Johnson or Lee could perform similar feats of power and strength. One can't take power training so seriously during cricket seasons (soreness, minor injuries) which is how he got so powerful but I'd reckon power training is done by probably all of the major cricketing nations.

[msb1991]

not saying they were entirely casual or the intensity was not there.....all i am saying is the pressure/stress of bowling say 5000 deliveries in international games' date='ipl etc is more than bowling 10000 deliveries in international(given the amount played in those days)+county cricket.[/quote'] I'd love some evidence (anecdotal) to support this. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just think that the view that the intensity multiplied by amount of cricket was similar or greater in the past is the sensible default view to have, in absence of evidence to the contrary.

[jalebi_bhai]

There was so much hype over his training. It is standard power training performed to a high standard. I think Johnson or Lee could perform similar feats of power and strength. One can't take power training so seriously during cricket seasons (soreness' date=' minor injuries) which is how he got so powerful but I'd reckon power training is done by probably all of the major cricketing nations.[/quote'] All that bloke did was power training..........and throwing a cricket ball like a javelin :haha:........he had no formal cricket training whatsoever.....

[express bowling]

But have we had a bowler who has been able to bowl with considerable speed and accuracy for a significant period of time (8+ years)? Zaheer and Nehra were quite quick around 2003......however' date=' both ended up being injury prone throughout their careers.......Srinath is the only one who honestly comes to mind......Sir Aggy also used to be deceptively quick back in the day........[/quote'] Srinath maintained his pace for 8 years. Zaheer, Nehra, Agarkar, Munaf, VRV, Sreesanth, RP, Ishant all have bowled at more than 140 k or very close for 1 to 2 seasons. Then they dropped pace. If the Indian cricketing fraternity had really wanted quick or quickish and reasonably accurate pacers, some of the above would have maintained pace. Almost all quicks all over the world are injury prone. Pavers in India drop pace after injury because they know that they would be included in the team even if they bowl 125 to 132 k. If that was discouraged, mist if them would have regained pace, maybe after a longer recuperation time. Fast bowling is really strenuous work. If 125 k pacers without any special skills are filling the pacers' slots, who would try to put in a lot of effort and bowl quick ?

[msb1991]

Pls have a look at the history of quick bowling and u will find willy nilly zero evidence to suggest that pace bowlers have had to pick one single format for most part of their careers - i wont bore anybody with an exhaustive list but pls feel free. Again if steyn has built up such a record its on the back of horrid performances of his national team in the odi format to heck with individual career and its quality when ur single most important focus should be to win every single match that your country plays.

You have ignored everything I wrote. I am not saying that pace bowlers have had to pick one format to bowl in. Steyn plays all the formats. I'm saying that South Africa's policy of resting him during a lot of ODIs is, in all likelihood, a key reason why he has been such a great Test bowler for so many years. Your focus should be to win as many matches as you can. By resting Steyn and Morkel in ODIs, they help try to ensure the victory of a lot of Test matches. You guys wanted a policy which encourages pace, this is one such policy!

[jalebi_bhai]

Pls have a look at the history of quick bowling and u will find willy nilly zero evidence to suggest that pace bowlers have had to pick one single format for most part of their careers - i wont bore anybody with an exhaustive list but pls feel free. Again if steyn has built up such a record its on the back of horrid performances of his national team in the odi format to heck with individual career and its quality when ur single most important focus should be to win every single match that your country plays.

The thing is though.......back in the day.......the amount of cricket played was nowhere near the amount played today......the workload is simply not comparable......times have changed.....and so has the game.......no point directly comparing trends that were followed 20-30 years back to modern times.......

[msb1991]

Enough said and its getting real late we all need our sleep m sure :).

Yadav also plays all the formats. He has been dropped for now, but he will 100% certainly be back. I live in England, it is 8pm. I'm waiting for Homeland at 9pm.

[jalebi_bhai]

Srinath maintained his pace for 8 years. Zaheer, Nehra, Agarkar, Munaf, VRV, Sreesanth, RP, Ishant all have bowled at more than 140 k or very close for 1 to 2 seasons. Then they dropped pace. If the Indian cricketing fraternity had really wanted quick or quickish and reasonably accurate pacers, some of the above would have maintained pace. Almost all quicks all over the world are injury prone. Pavers in India drop pace after injury because they know that they would be included in the team even if they bowl 125 to 132 k. If that was discouraged, mist if them would have regained pace, maybe after a longer recuperation time. Fast bowling is really strenuous work. If 125 k pacers without any special skills are filling the pacers' slots, who would try to put in a lot of effort and bowl quick ?

I think even Agarkar maintained his speed......could bowl between 135-141 till 2006-7 Zaheer, Nehra and VRV = Injuries Munaf and RP = Laziness Sreesanth = Lack of Temperament, Discplinary issues, Mental instability (:dontknow:) Ishant has been the victim of mismanagement more than anything...... I don't think you can squarely blame the BCCI or the coaches for bowlers dropping their pace......

[express bowling]

I think even Agarkar maintained his speed......could bowl between 135-141 till 2006-7 Zaheer, Nehra and VRV = Injuries Munaf and RP = Laziness Sreesanth = Lack of Temperament, Discplinary issues, Mental instability (:dontknow:) Ishant has been the victim of mismanagement more than anything...... I don't think you can squarely blame the BCCI or the coaches for bowlers dropping their pace......

I am not blaming the coaches and BCCI only. The whole cricketing fraternity, maybe an overwhelming majority of our cricket lovers, think pace is not all that important. ( compared to any other cricketing nation ). Pace is not everything but it is one very important aspect. As this aspect is our shortcoming, we should give it extra focus. Not at the cost of skills but along with it. We are filling our national, zonal and A teams with < 135 k pacers, many of them mostly < 130k. What message is it sendin to our pacers ? That pace is immaterial.

[jalebi_bhai]

I am not blaming the coaches and BCCI only. The whole cricketing fraternity, maybe an overwhelming majority of our cricket lovers, think pace is not all that important. ( compared to any other cricketing nation ). Pace is not everything but it is one very important aspect. As this aspect is our shortcoming, we should give it extra focus. Not at the cost of skills but along with it. We are filling our national, zonal and A teams with < 135 k pacers, many of them mostly < 130k. What message is it sendin to our pacers ? That pace is immaterial.

Ok.....I agree with the general gist of what you are saying.....but are we choosing from the best available pool of talent or is there some deep rooted politics involved?

[msb1991]

I am not blaming the coaches and BCCI only. The whole cricketing fraternity, maybe an overwhelming majority of our cricket lovers, think pace is not all that important. ( compared to any other cricketing nation ). Pace is not everything but it is one very important aspect. As this aspect is our shortcoming, we should give it extra focus. Not at the cost of skills but along with it. We are filling our national, zonal and A teams with < 135 k pacers, many of them mostly < 130k. What message is it sendin to our pacers ? That pace is immaterial.

I disagree. Indian selectors are very happy to pick fast bowlers. VRV Singh, Munaf Patel and Varun Aaron were, by any standards fast tracked into the international team. Umesh Yadav and Sreesanth were picked pretty damn quickly too. Mithun was fast-tracked because people thought he was fast, they were mistaken but he was fast-tracked on promise of pace.

[express bowling]

Ok.....I agree with the general gist of what you are saying.....but are we choosing from the best available pool of talent or is there some deep rooted politics involved?

We are surely not using our whole talent pool. Pacers like Pankaj Singh, Shukla, Suyal don't even get to play for our A team whereas Mithun etc.get so many chances.

[panther]

And may you continue having trundlers!

[express bowling]

I disagree. Indian selectors are very happy to pick fast bowlers. VRV Singh' date=' Munaf Patel and Varun Aaron were, by any standards fast tracked into the international team. Umesh Yadav and Sreesanth were picked pretty damn quickly too. Mithun was fast-tracked because people thought he was fast, they were mistaken but he was fast-tracked on promise of pace.[/quote'] The problem is not that pacers are not picked for the first time based on pace. Some pacers are. But then they are encouraged to improve their skills at the cost of pace. There is no incentive to maintain their pace. They are often replaced by medium pacers even though other quicker pacers are available. Our main challenge is to get our pacers to maintain their pace ... by providing incentive to those who maintain pace and punishing those who drop pace without any solid reason. Many of our pacers get entry in the team by bowling quickish and then drop pace but still get chances because they have become known faces.