putrevus Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 The problem with umpire's call is benefit of doubt is going to umpire and not the batsman or bowler. It is protecting umpire and not the players.They are making umpires a bigger part of the game than they should be, the best umpires are umpires who are never discussed during the match. Why are teams losing reviews due to umpire's call.
Lord Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 Its 50-50 .. Remember Sachin's Decision in WC semi final .The decision was reversed bcoz ball didn't touch any part of the stump in hawk eye and it been ball touch even a 1mm .He would have been given out based on umpries call . Yep And if it was given not out same would be not out
Crookbond Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 The problem with umpire's call is benefit of doubt is going to umpire and not the batsman or bowler. It is protecting umpire and not the players.They are making umpires a bigger part of the game than they should be, the best umpires are umpires who are never discussed during the match. Why are teams losing reviews due to umpire's call. :blink: The umpire's call means technology can't make a decision. What else should one do than rely on umpire's call? Toss of a coin!
Crookbond Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 You are making it complicated. Any call that is marginal to today's rule should be given not out. It will be decided w they decide it now. It means those decisions which are not overturned due to umpire's call should be overturned to not out. if umpire has not given a batsman out then ball must hit middle of the stump to over turn that umpire decision. Same should be applied when umpire has given you out if it isn't the case' date= it should be overturned to not out. It will be fair for both the teams. With current rules, what on field umpire decides becomes an important factor. I give an example, in attest between Aus and WI, Gayle was given LBW by DRS on a marginal call because onfield umpire had given him out while Pointing got away on referral on similar marginal call because infield umpire didn't give him out. That was unfair for WI. It brings luck factor. Either you give both out or both not out. Kya khichdi bana di hai yaar tum logon ne. That call is not marginal - the call can not be made correctly by technology. Just because technology can't make a call, doesn't mean the actual call is marginal. A 9 cm error is not marginal - it is ~ 4 inches.
putrevus Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 :blink: The umpire's call means technology can't make a decision. What else should one do than rely on umpire's call? Toss of a coin! When technology cant decide , let us just leave on humans and live with it and then evaluate each umpires based on his decisions over period of time.Guess what is BCCI is saying?? I can accept to some extent umpire's call on prediction of path part but there should not be any umpire's call on where ball has pitched and point of impact. They have the technology to be accurate there. Do you know what referral is ??????
CSK Fan Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 I can accept to some extent umpire's call on prediction of path part but there should not be any umpire's call on where ball has pitched and point of impact. They have the technology to be accurate there. Actually no. The margin of error is less but still there. For example, recently H/E admitted an error in showing where ball pitched and as a result the entire trajectory became wrong and a wrong out was given.
CSK Fan Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 The problem with umpire's call is benefit of doubt is going to umpire and not the batsman or bowler. It is protecting umpire and not the players.They are making umpires a bigger part of the game than they should be, the best umpires are umpires who are never discussed during the match. Why are teams losing reviews due to umpire's call. People are still not understanding a simple thing the benefit of doubt is not going to anyone. The H/E is simply saying, because of my error rate, I cannot take this decision so what the hell do we do then? Toss a coin? Of course we will let umpires decide then. That is why the original decision stands I am assuming that teams are losing reviews to penalize them for going for close decisions instead of obvious blunders And seriously for marginal decisions you will blame the umpires now? For millimeters? How is marginal decisions a major error and protecting umpires. Complete non-sense
CSK Fan Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 You are making it complicated. Any call that is marginal to today's rule should be given not out. It will be decided w they decide it now. It means those decisions which are not overturned due to umpire's call should be overturned to not out. ve him out. That was unfair for WI. It brings luck factor. Either you give both out or both not out. This will be stupid. Because H/E can show ten balls marginally hitting but in reality because of it's ERROR RATE, all ten might be hitting middle of leg stump (or off stump) As if cricket is not already in favor of batsman that we need to penalize bowlers more just because we do not understand how probability and a technology works
CSK Fan Posted February 25, 2015 Posted February 25, 2015 :blink: The umpire's call means technology can't make a decision. What else should one do than rely on umpire's call? Toss of a coin! Damn, I swear I didn't read this post and yet made the same analogy
putrevus Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 There are three variables here and the we can accept some margin of errror in predictive path ,if there are questions about other two then what is point in having it.
rkt.india Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 This will be stupid. Because H/E can show ten balls marginally hitting but in reality because of it's ERROR RATE, ahittingen might be hitting middle of leg stump (or off stump) As if cricket is not already in favor of batsman that we need to penalize bowlers more just because we do not understand how probability and a technology works I also gave an example above with this decision. My problem is with two different decisions on same marginal call. when hwk eye shows ball hitting edge of the stump, if on field umpire has given it out, it stays out. If not then it is not out on DRS. This thing brings luck factor and on field decisions can unintentionally go in favor of one team. Bowlers are penalized here too. Either you give it out or not.
rkt.india Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 :blink: The umpire's call means technology can't make a decision. What else should one do than rely on umpire's call? Toss of a coin! Why should rely on Umpire's call which can be unintentionally favorable to one team. Make one decision whether on field umpire has given it out or not out. Either it is out or not out. Shouldnt be baded on what on field decision is. Marginal call decisions must be consistent.
putrevus Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 People are still not understanding a simple thing the benefit of doubt is not going to anyone. The H/E is simply saying, because of my error rate, I cannot take this decision so what the hell do we do then? Toss a coin? Of course we will let umpires decide then. That is why the original decision stands I am assuming that teams are losing reviews to penalize them for going for close decisions instead of obvious blunders And seriously for marginal decisions you will blame the umpires now? For millimeters? How is marginal decisions a major error and protecting umpires. Complete non-sense Did they mention anywhere reviews have to be used only for horrible calls, then this whole thing makes sense otherwise it does not make any sense. Umpire's call intentionally or unintentionally are giving one team in some cases undue advantages and there by questioning the integrity of the umpires. Can you vouch for umpires and their integrity , these guys know what H/E would predict on most of their decisions , if that is the case how do we know they are not favoring one team. The very reason for having neutral umpires is negated. Do what NFL does ,there are some calls which cannot be challenged because they are based on umpire's interpretation.
moniker Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 Why should rely on Umpire's call which can be unintentionally favorable to one team. Make one decision whether on field umpire has given it out or not out. Either it is out or not out. Shouldnt be baded on what on field decision is. Marginal call decisions must be consistent. If you consider it that way, then any decision made by the on-field umpires can be unintentionally favorable to one team, not just those referred to the 3rd ump. If you are into the DRS error zone and still use DRS to take a decision, that is actually intentionally favorable to one team. You can't say out or not out based on incorrect technology. Umpire's call here makes sense.
CSK Fan Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 Did they mention anywhere reviews have to be used only for horrible calls, then this whole thing makes sense otherwise it does not make any sense. Umpire's call intentionally or unintentionally are giving one team in some cases undue advantages and there by questioning the integrity of the umpires. Can you vouch for umpires and their integrity , these guys know what H/E would predict on most of their decisions , if that is the case how do we know they are not favoring one team. The very reason for having neutral umpires is negated. Do what NFL does ,there are some calls which cannot be challenged because they are based on umpire's interpretation. If you want to question umpire's integrity then let's not have umpires at all. There are wides, no balls and 100s of things umpires decide which can change the course of the game. If you have zero trust in umpires, remove umpires completely, even third umpires because how do we know they are not evil Nazis in disguise favoring only Aryans? Secondly, I think you have still not grasped what people are trying to explain. Umpire's call is just H/E way of saying, boss, I CANNOT take this decision. So in such a scenario how do you want to make a decision. Please come up with an alternative? Toss a coin? Do the cha cha? Let Sreesanth make the decision? Please provide an alternative
CSK Fan Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 Why should rely on Umpire's call which can be unintentionally favorable to one team. Make one decision whether on field umpire has given it out or not out. Either it is out or not out. Shouldnt be baded on what on field decision is. Marginal call decisions must be consistent. arrey, because there is a chance that umpires might be biased. However, there is a much bigger chance that making that ONE decision will be wrong at least 50% of the time. BECAUSE H/E THEMSELVES ADMIT THE ERROR RATE. THEY SAY IF YOU TAKE A DECISION BETWEEN THIS RATE IT IS VERY LIKELY TO BE A WRONG DECISION Man, how many times does it need to be explained before people get basic maths.
rkt.india Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 arrey' date=' because there is a chance that umpires might be biased. [b']However, there is a much bigger chance that making that ONE decision will be wrong at least 50% of the time. BECAUSE H/E THEMSELVES ADMIT THE ERROR RATE. THEY SAY IF YOU TAKE A DECISION BETWEEN THIS RATE IT IS VERY LIKELY TO BE A WRONG DECISION Man, how many times does it need to be explained before people get basic maths. I am not talking about umpire bias. Umpire may not be biased, but unintentionally can give batsman out on similar appeal and one not out like in example I had given of Aus-WI test. Gayle was given out and Ponting wasn't. Both identical dismissals, but on referral Gayle was given out as on-field umpire had given him while Ponting was not because on-field umpire had not given him out. Umpire has to decide in a fraction of a second. Either these both were out or both were not out. You cannot have two different decisions on an identical call. Otherwise, there is no use of DRS. If you want howlers removed LBW on inside edge, caught behind on no edge or edged but not given, third umpire can do that. Give him that power to overturn the decision himself.
MK55 Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 Lot of posters here have got some valid points. There are definitely a lot of issues in the current system. Firstly, I must clarify that the 45mm margin is the ICC’s ‘protocol’ and not necessarily the error margin that Hawkeye owners have claimed. I came across articles where it is mentioned that the error stays within 15mm in normal LBW decisions and within 25mm for extreme cases. In one of the Ashes test of 2010, there was a 'human' error while predicting the path using a rival technology producer, ‘Virtual Eye’ and the error was found to be 45mm. I am assuming that the ICC is playing it safe and hence has decided to persist with the 45mm margin. So we are inflating the error margin and then using the margin in a way that would suit the on-field umpire. This would work if we are only focusing on eliminating howlers but not for improving decisions. This positioning also needs to change http://cricketingview.blogspot.in/2010/06/problems-with-hawkeye.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/theashes/8190200/The-Ashes-2010-Hawk-Eye-founder-claims-rival-system-is-not-being-so-eagle-eyed.html Secondly, we are not considering how the error behaves within this margin. What if it is something like a Bell curve. As an example if there’s a stock that varies within 50-100 but stays somewhere around 75 in 99% of the cases, I’ll rather take a call for 75 rather than 50 or 100. Now this is an extreme example. Similarly if the stock varies between 50-100 in a random manner, then I really can’t predict within that interval and then it would make sense for me to listen to the intuition of some adviser who has got experience. Now the technology may not be very reliable. But there will be much less doubts when it comes to the error measurement of the technology that the technology itself. I personally would prefer if the ICC revisits the efficacy or the error margin of the system. IF the error margin is found out to be negligible, around 15-20mm, I’ll prefer a system that simply eliminates those cases and gives the benefit of doubt to the batsmen. Also, if the error margin is indeed found to be large and if the error is found to be random within that interval, then probably the current system where the umpire call remains would make more sense.
rkt.india Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 Also, if the error margin is indeed found to be large and if the error is found to be random within that interval, then probably the current system where the umpire call remains would make more sense. This umpire call never makes sense to me because it can give you two different decisions on a similar call. A DRS decision should never depend on what on-field umpire's decision is no matter how much the error margin is. Umpire's eye is not better than technology. Case in point, SRT dismissal in last WC. It looked plumb at first instance but reversed by DRS.
adi B Posted February 26, 2015 Posted February 26, 2015 This umpire call never makes sense to me because it can give you two different decisions on a similar call. A DRS decision should never depend on what on-field umpire's decision is no matter how much the error margin is. Umpire's eye is not better than technology. Case in point' date=' SRT dismissal in last WC. It looked plumb at first instance but reversed by DRS.[/quote'] drs is here to eliminate only the howlers and not the 50-50 calls.50-50 calls can go either way and has been for years,u cant complain on that,basically its a gamble taken by the fielding or the batting team.u take the review if u think its a howler,if u think its close or 50-50 then be ready to be on the wrong side of the decision most of the times
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