AmreekanDesi Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 We must trust the poor to make choices for themselves and choose whatever religious product they want. Or are we not ready to accord them this freedom ? They are poor because of their choices.
Muloghonto Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 They are poor because of their choices. No. Don't believe the libertarian claptrap. They are poor because of LACK of choices. There is no such thing as 'if you choose to, you won't be poor'. People have varying different abilities to create wealth, primarily because of reasons out of their control, predominantly with things like ' accident of birth/social circles/society' etc. Social mobility is largely a mirage because its mostly facilitated by individuals rather than a system. If i define '<10 million dollars net worth = poor' benchmark and tell you you are poor because of your choices and how come you can't just create millions of dollars of wealth for yourself like the sons & daughters of moguls and tycoons do, your reasons will essentially be the same reasons as to why the tribal people cannot go create 300 bucks for themselves.
AmreekanDesi Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 No. Don't believe the libertarian claptrap. They are poor because of LACK of choices. There is no such thing as 'if you choose to, you won't be poor'. People have varying different abilities to create wealth, primarily because of reasons out of their control, predominantly with things like ' accident of birth/social circles/society' etc. Social mobility is largely a mirage because its mostly facilitated by individuals rather than a system. If i define '<10 million dollars net worth = poor' benchmark and tell you you are poor because of your choices and how come you can't just create millions of dollars of wealth for yourself like the sons & daughters of moguls and tycoons do, your reasons will essentially be the same reasons as to why the tribal people cannot go create 300 bucks for themselves. i know it was a mixture of sarcasm and anger
seedhi Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 We must trust the poor to make choices for themselves and choose whatever religious product they want. Or are we not ready to accord them this freedom ?Why do we then make it illegal for candidates to bribe voters with cash? Can't we trust the poor people with their vote? The same rules that apply to political campaigning in India should apply to religious conversion, as the latter is political in disguise. This means no foreign funds or human resources, and no inducement. Let us remember that political christianity has left in its wake a trail of devastated civilizations, and millions of people murdered and raped.
moniker Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 We must trust the poor to make choices for themselves and choose whatever religious product they want. Or are we not ready to accord them this freedom ? The poor get no option but to convert as this gives them access to quick money. Have no problem if they really to convert after listening attentively to the speeches and converting after getting thoroughly convinced. But since they are poor, don't think they have the luxury of having such a mindset. If it's easy money, they'll take. Won't blame them for it. It's up to the religious organizations to not convert after enticing them with money, surely even the religions wouldn't support such a despicable act.
CG Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 The poor get no option but to convert as this gives them access to quick money. Have no problem if they really to convert after listening attentively to the speeches and converting after getting thoroughly convinced. But since they are poor' date=' don't think they have the luxury of having such a mindset. If it's easy money, they'll take. Won't blame them for it. It's up to the religious organizations to not convert after enticing them with money, surely even the religions wouldn't support such a despicable act.[/quote'] True .Subsidy might be bad but with govts in various state provding meals at rs 2 per day and rice and dal 1 kg at rs 1 and many other incentives.Atleast hunger will not be a problem .
Texan Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Christians on the Western Coast of India, namely Catholics of Goa, Karnataka, Kerala and Maharashtra are descendants of Gaud Saraswat Brahmins, who migrated south from the Indus Valley after the Saraswati dried up. They converted to Catholicism, as part of cultural exchange, with the arrival and settlement of the Portugese though they retained their Hindu practices. The similarities are evident even today in cultural ceremonies. These groups of Christians, to which my family belongs to, are largely moderate. Our treachery doesn't extend to beyond supporting Congress (not me, I'm communal) :haha: Even that is changing now. The trouble makers are those who set up shop in tribal areas and start harvesting Dalit souls. These kinds are a brand of Neo-missionaries who try to carry out all sorts of non-sense. Proper scamsters. They pollute people's minds' with filth against their own culture. I see. I don't have much knowledge on the subject for the rest of India. But, in Mumbai there are many schools run by Christian missionaries (I attended one too) and nobody to my knowledge has been compelled to or even lured into converting. Many non-Christians send their kids to such schools, even those who would be considered very orthodox.
jalebi_bhai Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Why would they do that? I mean why would any organization spend money to stall some random development project in a no name place in an Indian state? To understand this, you will have to zoom out a bit and look at matters at a geo-political scale. India is a very resource rich country and if we start fulfilling our potential on a global scale, we, along with China, could potentially shift the global epicenter to Asia. All India needs is one generation of stability, with regards to internal security, and no Harshad Mehta types who build castles on clouds. We are not talking about just any organizations here. These organizations range from state sponsored intelligentsia to global corporates. For foreign corporates, it is not only about ensuring that Indian businessmen don't reap the benefits of doing business in India, it is about reaping the benefits for themselves. For Western countries, it is about maintaining their global hegemony and making sure that India doesn't grow/progress or even if it does, it does so being completely subservient and subordinate. I'm all for social impact assessment and organic growth, but you cannot use activism as a tool for extortion and international conspiracy. Neither should tragedy be used for disguised exploitation of the poor.
Desi Cartman Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Most problems will be solved if government focuses on providing healthcare, defense and infrastructure. Thats all a govt is supposed to do, giving away mixes and grinders and rice doesnt really make people prosper. What helps people is if there are more businesses which need infrastructure. na bijli na pani .. mixi aur chawal se kya hoga. Govt's have been giving people false hope by saving medical is free or guaranteed rozgar for 3-4 months at minimum wage, do people really need 3-4 months job guarantee, how will that help them live? why cant government help smaller businesses and even large businesses but then how will poor remain poor and then why will they vote congress or any party for free food.
Shivaji bhonsle Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 I have no problem in people converting to Christianity. They are not radicals like Islamists. If Christian missionaries can provide a better life and education, why not?
Raghav_12 Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Thread reminds me of Robe Linda who found some random tweets on internet to prove Indians are happy with Hughes incident.
Shivaji bhonsle Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Thread reminds me of Robe Linda who found some random tweets on internet to prove Indians are happy with Hughes incident. You had the same views about ghar wapsi?
EnterTheVoid Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Jeezus should have stopped the earthquake from happening in the first place.
Pagalpanti Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 We must trust the poor to make choices for themselves and choose whatever religious product they want. Or are we not ready to accord them this freedom ? Anyone is free to choose what they want. But using a tragedy as a situation to force your religion upon others is not the right way.
Yoda-esque Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Anyone is free to choose what they want. But using a tragedy as a situation to force your religion upon others is not the right way. Whilst on the topic of Swami Vivekananda, here is an excerpt from his famous Chicago speech at the World Parliament of Religion.. Very applicable to the events unfolding in the tragic Nepal aftermath. "Christians must always be ready for good criticism, and I hardly think that you will mind if I make a little criticism. You Christians, who are so fond of sending out missionaries to save the soul of the heathen--why do you not try to save their bodies from starvation? In India, during the terrible famines, thousands died from hunger, yet you Christians did nothing. You erect churches all through India, but the crying evil in the East is not religion-- they have religion enough--but it is bread that the suffering millions of burning India cry out for with parched throats. They ask us for bread, but we give them stones. It is an insult to a starving people to offer them religion; it is an insult to a starving man to teach him metaphysics. In India a priest that preached for money would lose caste and be spat upon by the people. I came here to seek aid for my impoverished people, and I fully realised how difficult it was to get help for heathens from Christians in a Christian land."
Tiger80 Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 We must trust the poor to make choices for themselves and choose whatever religious product they want. Or are we not ready to accord them this freedom ? There is difference between freedom of choice and exploitation
sensible-indian Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 To understand this, you will have to zoom out a bit and look at matters at a geo-political scale. India is a very resource rich country and if we start fulfilling our potential on a global scale, we, along with China, could potentially shift the global epicenter to Asia. All India needs is one generation of stability, with regards to internal security, and no Harshad Mehta types who build castles on clouds. We are not talking about just any organizations here. These organizations range from state sponsored intelligentsia to global corporates. For foreign corporates, it is not only about ensuring that Indian businessmen don't reap the benefits of doing business in India, it is about reaping the benefits for themselves. For Western countries, it is about maintaining their global hegemony and making sure that India doesn't grow/progress or even if it does, it does so being completely subservient and subordinate. I'm all for social impact assessment and organic growth, but you cannot use activism as a tool for extortion and international conspiracy. Neither should tragedy be used for disguised exploitation of the poor. But I don't get one thing. Kinda confused. For this to be effective, it has to be done large scale. Spending a ton of money to stop a thing here or there...how does that help them? And these Western countries should be doing it for all developing countries right including Brazil (which I heard is very fast growing), right? Plus many foreign corporates WANT to do business in India (due to the growing purchasing power of our middle class) and they complain about the levels of bureaucracy that makes the whole process down to a snail's pace. I agree that in some cases this happens. Pretty sure this Udayakumar who was leading the agitation in the Southern TN to prevent the nuclear powerplant to start and generate electricity...was funded by someone cos people can't be sitting for demonstration for 6 months (with each day bringing a loss of $1 million dollar to the TN government).
Swing_n_Speed Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Whilst on the topic of Swami Vivekananda, here is an excerpt from his famous Chicago speech at the World Parliament of Religion.. Very applicable to the events unfolding in the tragic Nepal aftermath. "Christians must always be ready for good criticism, and I hardly think that you will mind if I make a little criticism. You Christians, who are so fond of sending out missionaries to save the soul of the heathen--why do you not try to save their bodies from starvation? In India, during the terrible famines, thousands died from hunger, yet you Christians did nothing. You erect churches all through India, but the crying evil in the East is not religion-- they have religion enough--but it is bread that the suffering millions of burning India cry out for with parched throats. They ask us for bread, but we give them stones. It is an insult to a starving people to offer them religion; it is an insult to a starving man to teach him metaphysics. In India a priest that preached for money would lose caste and be spat upon by the people. I came here to seek aid for my impoverished people, and I fully realised how difficult it was to get help for heathens from Christians in a Christian land." At-least them Christians are a tolerant lot if you can insult them to their face in a country predominately Christian. And gosh in the world we live in today, I rate the virtue of tolerance above all others. Anyways more importantly did Swami he get the aid from USA that went for.
jalebi_bhai Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 But I don't get one thing. Kinda confused. For this to be effective, it has to be done large scale. Yep. It is done large scale. Check out greenpeace's profile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace They are set up in about 40 countries. Look at their effin budget. That is what they legally disclose. Greenpeace is only one of many such NGOs. I remember, while walking through 3rd street here in LA, having happened to come across a NGO worker from children.org. He was seeking donations and started telling me all his info. He then showed me a map of the world. I saw that they had operations in India and asked him where exactly. The guy straight up didn't know. I gave him a sob-story and left. Spending a ton of money to stop a thing here or there...how does that help them? For corporates, there is scope for a wide range of criminal activities. They can kill of competition in the indigenous country by making a lumpsum payment to local agents, who then overhype issues and make sure that local companies can't set up factories. Not only are you killing their business, you are also diverting their profits to you. Instead of spending 50 million and honestly trying to improve your product, why not spend 0.5 million and sabotage your competition? Perfect motivation. Another avenue is to use NGOs as bases for money laundering. Assign local, paid money managers as NGO workers and invest around $50,000 dedicated for NGO work. Pump illicit money through Hawala channels and have the money managers do their thing. The benefit of doing this over Swiss banks and tax havens is that you are not vulnerable to whistle-blowers blowing your cover like has been happening recently. Money laundering and raising funds for terrorists and separatists by exploiting govt. laxity are other activities. These are only some avenues of the top of my mind. There is scope for plenty more. And these Western countries should be doing it for all developing countries right including Brazil (which I heard is very fast growing), right? Yes. Plus many foreign corporates WANT to do business in India (due to the growing purchasing power of our middle class) and they complain about the levels of bureaucracy that makes the whole process down to a snail's pace. Definitely. Not everyone is a crook. There are plenty of honest businessmen. Not only do they complain about market regulations, they also complain about the interest rates that RBI charges. I agree that in some cases this happens. Pretty sure this Udayakumar who was leading the agitation in the Southern TN to prevent the nuclear powerplant to start and generate electricity...was funded by someone cos people can't be sitting for demonstration for 6 months (with each day bringing a loss of $1 million dollar to the TN government). Me too.
sensible-indian Posted April 27, 2015 Posted April 27, 2015 Yep. It is done large scale. Check out greenpeace's profile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenpeace They are set up in about 40 countries. Look at their effin budget. That is what they legally disclose. Greenpeace is only one of many such NGOs. I remember, while walking through 3rd street here in LA, having happened to come across a NGO worker from children.org. He was seeking donations and started telling me all his info. He then showed me a map of the world. I saw that they had operations in India and asked him where exactly. The guy straight up didn't know. I gave him a sob-story and left. For corporates, there is scope for a wide range of criminal activities. They can kill of competition in the indigenous country by making a lumpsum payment to local agents, who then overhype issues and make sure that local companies can't set up factories. Not only are you killing their business, you are also diverting their profits to you. Instead of spending 50 million and honestly trying to improve your product, why not spend 0.5 million and sabotage your competition? Perfect motivation. Another avenue is to use NGOs as bases for money laundering. Assign local, paid money managers as NGO workers and invest around $50,000 dedicated for NGO work. Pump illicit money through Hawala channels and have the money managers do their thing. The benefit of doing this over Swiss banks and tax havens is that you are not vulnerable to whistle-blowers blowing your cover like has been happening recently. Money laundering and raising funds for terrorists and separatists by exploiting govt. laxity are other activities. These are only some avenues of the top of my mind. There is scope for plenty more. Yes. Definitely. Not everyone is a crook. There are plenty of honest businessmen. Not only do they complain about market regulations, they also complain about the interest rates that RBI charges. Me too. Wow. Thanks for the detailed post, mate. Thanks a ton.
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