Austin 3:!6 Posted May 20, 2015 Author Posted May 20, 2015 Still better than Dhoni who chokes every game now a days. LIke the world cup semi final? :hmmm:
NareshK Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 What a joke. Some people talk any nonsense here that comes to their mind. Kohli is one of the best batsmen under pressure. His record while chasing speaks for itself. Some idiot here even said ABDV is better than Kohli because he handles pressure. If ABDV is that good, how come he never scores in a knock out game for SA and win the match for his team ? Of course, that logic doesnt apply to him. Kohli scored 72 off 44 balls in World T20 Semi Final against SA to win the game. Just giving an example of one of the instances where he won the game for India under pressure.
sensible-indian Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 What a joke. Some people talk any nonsense here that comes to their mind. Kohli is one of the best batsmen under pressure. His record while chasing speaks for itself. Some idiot here even said ABDV is better than Kohli because he handles pressure. If ABDV is that good, how come he never scores in a knock out game for SA and win the match for his team ? Of course, that logic doesnt apply to him. Kohli scored 72 off 44 balls in World T20 Semi Final against SA to win the game. Just giving an example of one of the instances where he won the game for India under pressure. In ODIs, Kohli in knockout averages 25. ABD in knockouts averages 54. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/44936.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;type=batting;view=innings http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;type=batting;view=innings In T20s, Kohli in knockout averages 149 (2 innings) ABD averages 11 (failed in both knockouts in T20s). Kohli in 2014 BEFORE he toured England was almost invincible. Then after Anderson happened, I felt he was never the same again. ABD has been performing in knockout games for SA but they find ways to bottle it. His performance against NZ in WC 2015 was a fine exhibition of clutch performance only for his bowlers and fielders to mess it up. Can't blame ABD for not winning a knockout game for SA. Kohli was crazy good at a time but now....not so much. While ABD simply is going from one level to another level to another level in the last 5 years. He has become a clutch player these days.
NareshK Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 In ODIs, Kohli in knockout averages 25. ABD in knockouts averages 54. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/44936.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;type=batting;view=innings http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;type=batting;view=innings In T20s, Kohli in knockout averages 149 (2 innings) ABD averages 11 (failed in both knockouts in T20s). Kohli in 2014 BEFORE he toured England was almost invincible. Then after Anderson happened, I felt he was never the same again. ABD has been performing in knockout games for SA but they find ways to bottle it. His performance against NZ in WC 2015 was a fine exhibition of clutch performance only for his bowlers and fielders to mess it up. Can't blame ABD for not winning a knockout game for SA. Kohli was crazy good at a time but now....not so much. While ABD simply is going from one level to another level to another level in the last 5 years. He has become a clutch player these days. Again just more nonsense. Why do some people need to make up lies just to put down Kohli ? Kohli scored 692 runs in 4 tests in Australia and averaged 86.5 against the likes of Johnson, Ryan Harris, Siddle. Lyon etc. who made Eng batsmen and any touring side look like minnows.
sensible-indian Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Again just more nonsense. Why do some people need to make up lies just to put down Kohli ? Kohli scored 692 runs in 4 tests in Australia and averaged 86.5 against the likes of Johnson, Ryan Harris, Siddle. Lyon etc. who made Eng batsmen and any touring side look like minnows. I didn't say he was a rubbish player or anything. Just said he wasn't the same. Yes, he performed well against Australia pacers but he wasn't probed in that channel where he has the most issue due to flattish tracks with almost no swing. Aussie pitches were bad when SA toured them but they got even worse when we toured. Yes, he had an iconic innings in Adelaide spin track (one of the greatest ever I have seen) but talking about the area where he has issues. Post England test series, Failed in ODI series where even Dhawan did very wel. He wasn't the same against WI or SL at home ODIs though he scored. He got out in some innings while scored in some. He was too good for them regardless of what issues he had. In Australia tests, he was damn good. In Australia tri series, he struggled fully. In WC, he was mostly scratchy. This wasn't invincible Kohli of the past. He can get back to his old self but as of now, he isn't the same Kohli.
sensible-indian Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Again just more nonsense. Why do some people need to make up lies just to put down Kohli ? Kohli scored 692 runs in 4 tests in Australia and averaged 86.5 against the likes of Johnson, Ryan Harris, Siddle. Lyon etc. who made Eng batsmen and any touring side look like minnows. England were pathetic during their tour and Johnson was unreal at that time. When we toured, Johnson was still good but nothing close to his peak and the pitches were bad PLUS Kohli batted very well. Now look at the SAME Johnson in IPL. Last 2 IPL seasons, he was on fire and now he is getting carted by everyone and anyone.
NareshK Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 I didn't say he was a rubbish player or anything. Just said he wasn't the same. Yes, he performed well against Australia pacers but he wasn't probed in that channel where he has the most issue due to flattish tracks with almost no swing. Aussie pitches were bad when SA toured them but they got even worse when we toured. Yes, he had an iconic innings in Adelaide spin track (one of the greatest ever I have seen) but talking about the area where he has issues. Post England test series, Failed in ODI series where even Dhawan did very wel. He wasn't the same against WI or SL at home ODIs though he scored. He got out in some innings while scored in some. He was too good for them regardless of what issues he had. In Australia tests, he was damn good. In Australia tri series, he struggled fully. In WC, he was mostly scratchy. This wasn't invincible Kohli of the past. He can get back to his old self but as of now, he isn't the same Kohli. Just sounds like a load of excuses. Yada, yada, yada. I wont even bother arguing about some of your points. Its laughable you think he wasnt tested in 4 test matches outside off by world class bowlers in their conditions. I would be more inclined to think he was just very good to score close to 700 runs in 4 tests. In tri series, nobody even showed up. They were just going through the motions. In WC, he scored the big century against Pak and 46 against SA as well. Of course, he is not a god to score in every game and going to fail every now and then. But he has been consistent just like he has always been, other than the Eng series where he failed against Anderson which he will work on and come back as a better batsman when he faces him next.
sensible-indian Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Just sounds like a load of excuses. Yada' date=' yada, yada. I wont even bother arguing about some of your points. Its laughable you think he wasnt tested in 4 test matches outside off by world class bowlers in their conditions. I would be more inclined to think he was just very good to score close to 700 runs in 4 tests. I[b']n tri series, nobody even showed up. They were just going through the motions. In WC, he scored the big century against Pak and 46 against SA as well. Of course, he is not a god to score in every game and going to fail every now and then. But he has been consistent just like he has always been, other than the Eng series where he failed against Anderson which he will work on and come back as a better batsman when he faces him next. 1. No one is disputing that he scored a few runs in WC. I said he was scratchy and he was that against both Pak and SA. He was scratchy and didn't score in England away ODIs. He was scratchy in a few games and awesome in other games in WI and SL home ODIs. He was scratchy in Aus tri series. He was scratchy in WC. We are talking about series spanning almost 1 WHOLE year. The way Kohli scored runs in the past and the way he did in ODIs in the last year tells us a lot. 2. Again, I didn't say he wasn't tested at all in the 4 test series but his prime problematic area was not tested that much due to ridiculous pitches (Aussie pitches have been getting worse and worse right from SA tour). I said this: Yes, he performed well against Australia pacers but he wasn't probed in that channel where he has the most issue How does a player go from being sublime (before England series) to out of form to scratchy to incredible form to scratchy again in a span of 1 year? Fair enough if you don't agree with me. But looking at the way he is playing (and not just at stats), I don't see the same Kohli now. And this is the guy whom I seriously thought would beat Sachin in ODIs (impact wise) because of the way he got his runs in the past. Of course, he still has time to rediscover himself and sort out his issues and come back as a BEAST.
HippoSucks Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 In ODIs, Kohli in knockout averages 25. ABD in knockouts averages 54. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/44936.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;type=batting;view=innings http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;type=batting;view=innings In T20s, Kohli in knockout averages 149 (2 innings) ABD averages 11 (failed in both knockouts in T20s). Kohli in 2014 BEFORE he toured England was almost invincible. Then after Anderson happened, I felt he was never the same again. ABD has been performing in knockout games for SA but they find ways to bottle it. His performance against NZ in WC 2015 was a fine exhibition of clutch performance only for his bowlers and fielders to mess it up. Can't blame ABD for not winning a knockout game for SA. Kohli was crazy good at a time but now....not so much. While ABD simply is going from one level to another level to another level in the last 5 years. He has become a clutch player these days. Those statistics count triseries finals I think, which Kohli has played more of. Those really shouldn't be counted as there isn't much pressure involved in those cases.
sensible-indian Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Those statistics count triseries finals I think' date=' which Kohli has played more of. Those really shouldn't be counted as there isn't much pressure involved in those cases.[/quote'] Why should they not be counted bro? Those are finals and those were pressure situations. Sachin's most iconic ODI innings was a tri series final. Ok let's look at WC and Champion's Trophy (ICC events) knockouts. Kohli averages 28. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=batting;view=innings ABD averages 40.25 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/44936.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=batting;view=innings In WC only knockouts, Kohli averages 14 (5 innings). ABD averages 57 (3 innings).
HippoSucks Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Why should they be counted bro? Those are finals and those were pressure situations. Sachin's most iconic ODI innings was a tri series final. Ok let's look at WC and Champion's Trophy (ICC events) knockouts. Kohli averages 28. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=batting;view=innings ABD averages 40.25 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/44936.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=batting;view=innings I don't think the value of a triseries win comes even remotely close to that of an international tournament win. So obviously the pressure will be less. Still too early to compare their performances in knockouts of ICC tournaments. Kohli has played 7 innings while de VIlliers has played 5 (in one he didn't bat) in the World Cup/Champions Trophy knockouts. In World Cup knockouts only, Kohli has played 5 innings while de Villiers has played 3. Not enough sample size to compare at all. Only way you can rate one over the other here is if either one has some match winning knock in a knockout, which neither does. However, most of de Villiers' best ODI innings have come when the openers already built a good partnership. For example de Villiers 149 was after the openers made centuries (or something close to it). Need to see many more innings of de Villiers when they are chasing a large total and early wickets have fallen, even if it isn't in some ICC tournament.
NareshK Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Why should they not be counted bro? Those are finals and those were pressure situations. Sachin's most iconic ODI innings was a tri series final. Ok let's look at WC and Champion's Trophy (ICC events) knockouts. Kohli averages 28. http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=batting;view=innings ABD averages 40.25 http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/44936.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;trophy=44;type=batting;view=innings In WC only knockouts, Kohli averages 14 (5 innings). ABD averages 57 (4 innings). Kohli played a grand total of 7 knock out innings and ABDV played 6 and in WC, Kohli about 5 and ABDV 4. That's too small a sample size. One big innings can increase the average. Seems like you are obsessed with meaningless stats and trying to look too much into them.
velu Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Guys.. This is ipl section.. Show me one KO match where rat did something
sensible-indian Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 I don't think the value of a triseries win comes even remotely close to that of an international tournament win. So obviously the pressure will be less. Still too early to compare their performances in knockouts of ICC tournaments. Kohli has played 7 innings while de VIlliers has played 5 (in one he didn't bat) in the World Cup/Champions Trophy knockouts. In World Cup knockouts only, Kohli has played 5 innings while de Villiers has played 3. Not enough sample size to compare at all. Only way you can rate one over the other here is if either one has some match winning knock in a knockout, which neither does. However, most of de Villiers' best ODI innings have come when the openers already built a good partnership. For example de Villiers 149 was after the openers made centuries (or something close to it). Need to see many more innings of de Villiers when they are chasing a large total and early wickets have fallen, even if it isn't in some ICC tournament. Of course. Pressure is lesser. But tri series finals are pressure situations too hence I included them. I edited my post above and here's the WC only knockouts, Kohli averages 14 (5 innings). ABD averages 57 (3 innings). http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;type=batting;view=innings http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/44936.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;type=batting;view=innings Kohli is a top order bat. ABD is a lower order bat. That's how it is for now and if we are to compare them, we just have to do with what we have. Not the ideal way to compare but if we throw out stats and look at impact till now, Kohli hasn't been able to deliver in WC knockouts (except for the WC finals - his 30 odd runs were far more useful than what stats say). As for sample set, WC knockouts will always have low sample set.
sensible-indian Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Kohli played a grand total of 7 knock out innings and ABDV played 6 and in WC' date=' Kohli about 5 and ABDV 4. That's too small a sample size. One big innings can increase the average. [b']Seems like you are obsessed with meaningless stats and trying to look too much into them. Bro, someone asked me a question and I responded. Agreed one innings can increase average. But Sachin himself has played 6 WC knockouts (and he played in 6 WCs) so we can't talk about low sample set when it comes to WC knockouts. ABD with 3 innings in WC knockouts may have a bit low sample set but Kohli with 5 innings has a good sample set (WC knockout point of view). As of now Kohli has played in 2 WCs and has NOT done well. For a top class player like him, that's pretty bad. Very disappointed with him. And if you look at our interaction in this thread, my views about Kohli were based on how he was playing the last 1 year in ODIs excluding stats.
I6MTW Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Abdv>>>Kohli while batting first. While chasing Kohli is miles ahead. In any format.
Austin 3:!6 Posted May 20, 2015 Author Posted May 20, 2015 Lol people started fighting in this thread :giggle: Chill guys...purpose of this thread being served. My team won...Slickr's team lost. :phehehe: Lets enjoy the moment :proud: RCB for life
Gollum Posted May 20, 2015 Posted May 20, 2015 Agree with SIF's posts here. Except the CWC 2011 finals he has been really mediocre in the KOs in the biggest stage. However he was outstanding in the T20 WC in BD and the Champions Trophy finals, so he has it in him to thrive under pressure. And yeah must admit after the workover Anderson gave him last year, he may probably never recover from that humiliation and end up as a 45 avg batsman, not a 55 avg batsman like Sachin.
HippoSucks Posted May 21, 2015 Posted May 21, 2015 Of course. Pressure is lesser. But tri series finals are pressure situations too hence I included them. I edited my post above and here's the WC only knockouts, Kohli averages 14 (5 innings). ABD averages 57 (3 innings). http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/253802.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;type=batting;view=innings http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/player/44936.html?class=2;filter=advanced;final_type=1;final_type=3;final_type=4;orderby=start;template=results;tournament_type=3;tournament_type=5;trophy=12;type=batting;view=innings Kohli is a top order bat. ABD is a lower order bat. That's how it is for now and if we are to compare them, we just have to do with what we have. Not the ideal way to compare but if we throw out stats and look at impact till now, Kohli hasn't been able to deliver in WC knockouts (except for the WC finals - his 30 odd runs were far more useful than what stats say). As for sample set, WC knockouts will always have low sample set. You can say that there is pressure in the last match of series between only 2 teams if the score is tied until then. For example if a series is tied 2-2 you can say there is more pressure in the last match. Or in all matches when chasing a big score. There are so many such scenarios where pressure can be increased and you can't account for them all. That's why I feel it is best to just use performances in matches where there is the most pressure (tournament knockouts) as a statistic. You can still count performances while chasing or even triseries finals, but they should not be combined with tournament knockout statistics IMO. Of course players don't play too many tournament knockouts so it is difficult to get a large enough sample size to judge their consistency. That's why many people don't look at overall statistics (like average) when judging performances in tournament knockouts. Generally if a player has played one great innings under such pressure (e.g. Gilchrist's 149 against Sri Lanka in the World Cup 2007 final) then I regard him as doing well in such high pressure tournaments. Neither Kohli or de Villiers have played such important innings, so it is unfair to judge them based on their performances in tournament knockouts. At best you can compare them through their performances throughout entire tournaments (and not just knockouts), but even for that I think it is too early. Personally I feel Kohli has played better innings under pressure (while chasing) though many of de Villiers' best innings have come while he was batting first. So I get the impression so far that Kohli handles pressure better and doesn't let it negatively affect its batting. But I feel it is too early to judge these two players' ability to handle pressure. Maybe in a few years or so...
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